Is this happening to anybody else? - The Firearms Forum

Airborne1101 · 05-12-2009, 10:59 AM

I have had something happen to me 3 times in the last 2 days and I wonder if anyone else is having similar problems. several people know I am reloading ammo now from conversations at the range, and talking to friends. with the lack of ammo available and the price, I have had people ask to buy some of my hand loaded rounds ( I would NEVER sell any for a vast number of reasons ) but I wonder if any of you have been approached to sell your hand loads?

gdmoody · 05-12-2009, 11:21 AM

I have never been asked to sell any. I don't think that I would sell them either. I have let people have ammo if they just let me have the brass back, but with the prices of components being what they are now, I would have to think twice about doing that anymore.

Big ugly · 05-12-2009, 11:29 AM

I have been asked but I would not sell . I have done reloeads for friends but they have purchased the supplies and I provided the press.

Gene Seward · 05-12-2009, 11:44 AM

Had a guy ask my best friend if he could get me to load some for him. The answer was "NO" as stated for lots of reasons. The main reason for not is I just don't want to use my time to do for others that could be doing the same thing for themselves. I would never ask anyone to reload for me.

Popgunner · 05-12-2009, 11:52 AM

It's also very illegal to sell ammo you've re-loaded or ammo that wasn't re-loaded by a license holding re-loader.

gdmoody · 05-12-2009, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popgunner

It's also very illegal to sell ammo you've re-loaded or ammo that wasn't re-loaded by a license holding re-loader.

popgunner, I have never heard this, where did you get your information? My local gun shop reloads and sells, in his shop, the ammo that he reloads. He did quite a bit of checking on legality and insurance liabilities before he started doing that.

Airborne1101 · 05-12-2009, 01:18 PM

I think even if i loaded for somebody with them supplying the components I would still be very concerned as to the final location of those rounds ( my cousin wanted to shoot some of those etc. ) The quality of firearm used could not be guaranteed or any number of factors that could cause harm are not in my control. as well as tax issues and our old friends the ATF might look down on me selling or giving away my hand loads

bntyhntr6975 · 05-12-2009, 01:41 PM

I have sold some custom loaded ammunition to a couple people that I would consider "friends". However, I did make them sign a (legal) liability waiver, releasing me from any liability. It stated that they are aware of, and accept, all responsibilities for the handloaded ammo, from the time it leaves my possession, since accidents can occur. The waiver was drawn up by an attorney friend of mine. He informed me that (at least in this state) that as long as the waiver is signed, and the income is under "x" amount in a year, it is perfectly legal in all sense, without any license. Since primers are kinda hard to get, I have a hard enough time keeping myself in supply, so I have not loaded for them in awhile. I have a lot of confidence in any rounds I produce, but since anything can happen, hence the waiver.

Dirtypacman · 05-12-2009, 02:32 PM

I would not sell any - I have not been asked.
I have shared my ammo at the range but made it quite clear they are reloads and to be forewarned I will not be held responsible for any problems. Always another licensed person and fully aware of what can go wrong.

JLA · 05-12-2009, 02:44 PM

I have been asked and I have obliged. I always load starting loads for sale even to friends. for 1, its the safest possible load you can sell them, 2- they probably dont shoot enough to be proficient and wont notice the fact that they are starting loads, and 3- it helps me to keep my stocks rotated. for example, if i have a bunch of powder I rarely use for what ever reason that will provide a suitable starting load for a friend, I have them purchase powder that I WILL use and we call it even.

There are exceptions to my 'starting loads for friends' rule, and that exception lies with my veteran shooting buddies...

Alpo · 05-12-2009, 06:31 PM

People have asked me to do that for years. I'm surprised it is just now happening to some of y'all. EVERYONE knows that reloading is cheaper, so they always want a reloader to make them some. Problem is that they think that if I can load it for 5 bucks, I should sell it to them for 5 bucks. I told a guy at work once that I would load some for him. I would charge him exactly twice the cost of the components, plus my time. Since it takes about two hours, start to finish, to do one box of shells on a single-stage press, and I was making 20 dollars an hour, it would cost him about 55 dollars a box. How many boxes of 38 special did he want? He decided he didn't need any, and apparently passed the word, because others quit asking also.

glocknut · 05-12-2009, 07:30 PM

Too much liability....

mike
gn

Freebore · 05-12-2009, 10:44 PM

I agree with Glocknut, the liability issue is of utmost importance...just ask your attorney what he thinks.

mrkirker · 05-13-2009, 07:05 AM

Would not sell. Never been asked.

Popgunner · 05-13-2009, 09:15 AM

Mr Moody

The ATF license is called an "06" license & is $30 for 3 years. Even if you produce ammo and give it to others you would still need this license. Along with the license you would be required to remit 11% to the gubment as an excise tax. I don't know of the gubment demanding you have liability insurance but to sell your re-loads to anyone or even give them away without it would be risking being sued for whatever happens with your ammo. The one loophole is if your customers provide you with their own empty cases to load you are not required to submit the 11% excise tax.

To do it right you would maybe want to have your own cases with your own headstamp made. They require a 50,000 piece minimum order. While not very many custom coomercial re-loaders do this it would be a nice touch.

We have built up a nice local classifieds online source here in Utah for ammunition & re-loading components & one thing we have to watch to not get it shut down is to keep unlicensed re-loaders selling their re-loads off the site.

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=231&cat=379

gdmoody · 05-13-2009, 11:20 AM

pop, thanks. That is an interesting website. A radio station website?

I will ask my friend, the gun shop owner, if he is aware of the 06 license. I wonder, if he is an 01 dealer, does that cover the reloading and selling his reloads

JLA · 05-13-2009, 01:40 PM

Yes moody, a dealers license covers the manufacture and sale of reloaded ammo to the public. And on a different note... 'F' the gubment and lawyers, they ruin all the fun...

Lunicy · 05-13-2009, 01:57 PM

Have been asked a few times. They usually can't agree to the price

These are fine made, handcrafted rounds. Not the bulk made rounds coming out of giant factories. Anyone can buy a printed 8.5x11 print of the Mona Lisa for next to nothing. However the handcrafted Mona Lisa is priceless. Lets check the price list shall we..... One box of 9mm, $375.00.

Will that be cash or check?

As you can tell I don't sell my reloads.

Crpdeth · 05-13-2009, 04:40 PM

I had a friend bugging me for awhile, all he wanted was one box per year for deer season, fine tuned to his rifle, which meant that I would need to be in possession of an extremely nice .270 that was not mine, drive back and forth to the range, burning up time and components to dial it in... After that it would be no trick to simply pull out the recipe for his rifle and roll up 20 rounds each season for a nice profit, but ultimately decided against it.

Hey, if I blow my face off, no real loss, I'm already uglier than a mud fence, but I couldn't live with myself if the unthinkable happened to a friend.

Crpdeth

Insulation Tim · 05-13-2009, 05:05 PM

Actually, what got me started into reloading .45ACP rounds was when I purchased some reloads from the RSO at my club. He loads them much lighter than factory loads and I liked the way they had less recoil. I flat out shot better with them.

In hindsight, it may have been rude for me to even ask.

JLA · 05-13-2009, 06:55 PM

opinions differ, I see no problem in helping a friend out

Popgunner · 05-13-2009, 11:24 PM

The gunshop owner/FFL should contact the BATFE to find out if he's really legit. He would have to check:

Does he have enough general liability insurance to cover himself if something happens.

Is his shop in a light manufacturing zone or just a commercial zone. Manufacturing for sale from a house wouldn't be legit.

Business license(he's probably got that)

Any state & local licences for manufacturing.

Does he have employees? if so, more hoops to jump thru.

LDBennett · 05-14-2009, 08:10 AM

I would never reload for anyone or sell reloads to anyone. Way too risky!

I do reload for one friend but he is present for the session and helps in the process, even pulling the press handle. He only shoots when I am present or at least that was the way it was when he could still shoot. He is totally occupied now by the declining health of his wife and can not go shooting at all. Maybe some day (??). Anyway he would buy the components and the situation was that I was helping him reload.

LDBennett

gdmoody · 05-14-2009, 10:27 AM

I went by the shop on the way to work yesterday and asked about his reloading set up. He said that he was very aware of the 06 manufacturers FFL. He told me that he does not "sell" his ammo, the presses are there for any customer who wants to learn to reload and he allows them to do that at his shop for the costs of the components. So he basically gets around the requirements, I guess. His explanation works for me, anyway.

JLA · 05-14-2009, 10:31 AM

That a hell of an idea, and an admirable cause. Shake his hand for me

05-12-2009, 10:59 AM	#1
Airborne1101 Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: West Tennessee Posts: 15	Is this happening to anybody else? I have had something happen to me 3 times in the last 2 days and I wonder if anyone else is having similar problems. several people know I am reloading ammo now from conversations at the range, and talking to friends. with the lack of ammo available and the price, I have had people ask to buy some of my hand loaded rounds ( I would NEVER sell any for a vast number of reasons ) but I wonder if any of you have been approached to sell your hand loads? -->

05-12-2009, 11:21 AM	#2
gdmoody Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Northeast Georgia Contributor Posts: 6,334	Re: Is this happening to anybody else? I have never been asked to sell any. I don't think that I would sell them either. I have let people have ammo if they just let me have the brass back, but with the prices of components being what they are now, I would have to think twice about doing that anymore. __________________ NRA Endowment Member GeorgiaCarry.Org Member Retired US Army Postal Worker Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take an ass whoopin'.....author unknown (but obviously brilliant)

05-12-2009, 11:29 AM	#3
Big ugly Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Knoxville Tennessee Contributor Posts: 2,603	Re: Is this happening to anybody else? I have been asked but I would not sell . I have done reloeads for friends but they have purchased the supplies and I provided the press. __________________ "You say the Devil made do it with a smile. Raisin' hell and howlin at the moon. Well I'm gonna put your @$$ back in line. I'm gonna scare the Devil out of you." BlackBerry Smoke Song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R513dA4peMg Nothing is "proof" against a truly talented fool. Swanshot

05-12-2009, 11:44 AM	#4
Gene Seward V.I.P. Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Batesville, Arkansas Posts: 477	Re: Is this happening to anybody else? Had a guy ask my best friend if he could get me to load some for him. The answer was "NO" as stated for lots of reasons. The main reason for not is I just don't want to use my time to do for others that could be doing the same thing for themselves. I would never ask anyone to reload for me.

05-12-2009, 11:52 AM	#5
Popgunner Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Contributor Posts: 1,764	Re: Is this happening to anybody else? It's also very illegal to sell ammo you've re-loaded or ammo that wasn't re-loaded by a license holding re-loader.

05-12-2009, 01:18 PM	#7
Airborne1101 Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: West Tennessee Posts: 15	Re: Is this happening to anybody else? I think even if i loaded for somebody with them supplying the components I would still be very concerned as to the final location of those rounds ( my cousin wanted to shoot some of those etc. ) The quality of firearm used could not be guaranteed or any number of factors that could cause harm are not in my control. as well as tax issues and our old friends the ATF might look down on me selling or giving away my hand loads

05-12-2009, 01:41 PM	#8
bntyhntr6975 V.I.P. Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Wichita, Ks. Posts: 268	Re: Is this happening to anybody else? I have sold some custom loaded ammunition to a couple people that I would consider "friends". However, I did make them sign a (legal) liability waiver, releasing me from any liability. It stated that they are aware of, and accept, all responsibilities for the handloaded ammo, from the time it leaves my possession, since accidents can occur. The waiver was drawn up by an attorney friend of mine. He informed me that (at least in this state) that as long as the waiver is signed, and the income is under "x" amount in a year, it is perfectly legal in all sense, without any license. Since primers are kinda hard to get, I have a hard enough time keeping myself in supply, so I have not loaded for them in awhile. I have a lot of confidence in any rounds I produce, but since anything can happen, hence the waiver. Last edited by bntyhntr6975; 05-12-2009 at 01:46 PM..

05-12-2009, 02:32 PM	#9
Dirtypacman Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Merrimac Valley, MA Posts: 908	Re: Is this happening to anybody else? I would not sell any - I have not been asked. I have shared my ammo at the range but made it quite clear they are reloads and to be forewarned I will not be held responsible for any problems. Always another licensed person and fully aware of what can go wrong. __________________ Member HHRG and HSC, NRA Life Member, GOAL Member LTC-A

05-12-2009, 02:44 PM	#10
JLA TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Heart Of Texas Contributor Posts: 17,317	Re: Is this happening to anybody else? I have been asked and I have obliged. I always load starting loads for sale even to friends. for 1, its the safest possible load you can sell them, 2- they probably dont shoot enough to be proficient and wont notice the fact that they are starting loads, and 3- it helps me to keep my stocks rotated. for example, if i have a bunch of powder I rarely use for what ever reason that will provide a suitable starting load for a friend, I have them purchase powder that I WILL use and we call it even. There are exceptions to my 'starting loads for friends' rule, and that exception lies with my veteran shooting buddies... __________________ It takes 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, and 3 for proper trigger squeeze. The latest caliber or gear is no substitute for experience and skill. Rifles and cartridges don't make hits -- shooters do. Fact of life: After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF!

05-12-2009, 06:31 PM	#11
Alpo Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: NW Florida Posts: 8,662	Re: Is this happening to anybody else? People have asked me to do that for years. I'm surprised it is just now happening to some of y'all. EVERYONE knows that reloading is cheaper, so they always want a reloader to make them some. Problem is that they think that if I can load it for 5 bucks, I should sell it to them for 5 bucks. I told a guy at work once that I would load some for him. I would charge him exactly twice the cost of the components, plus my time. Since it takes about two hours, start to finish, to do one box of shells on a single-stage press, and I was making 20 dollars an hour, it would cost him about 55 dollars a box. How many boxes of 38 special did he want? He decided he didn't need any, and apparently passed the word, because others quit asking also. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with catsup - George of Lod, Year of Our Lord 297 I always take precautions. Beware the Evil Bullet Fairies.

05-12-2009, 07:30 PM	#12
glocknut Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: THE FORUM MASCOTT... Posts: 12,482	Re: Is this happening to anybody else? Too much liability.... mike gn __________________ Where O where are you tonight? Why have you gone and left me alone? I searched to world over and a thought i found true love... You met another and PTThhh you were gone....

05-12-2009, 10:44 PM	#13
Freebore V.I.P. Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Midwest USA Posts: 265	Re: Is this happening to anybody else? I agree with Glocknut, the liability issue is of utmost importance...just ask your attorney what he thinks.

05-13-2009, 07:05 AM	#14
mrkirker Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 3,067	Re: Is this happening to anybody else? Would not sell. Never been asked. __________________ *I don't know if dogs have a heaven, but there will be dogs in mine.*

05-13-2009, 09:15 AM	#15
Popgunner Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Contributor Posts: 1,764	Re: Is this happening to anybody else? Mr Moody The ATF license is called an "06" license & is $30 for 3 years. Even if you produce ammo and give it to others you would still need this license. Along with the license you would be required to remit 11% to the gubment as an excise tax. I don't know of the gubment demanding you have liability insurance but to sell your re-loads to anyone or even give them away without it would be risking being sued for whatever happens with your ammo. The one loophole is if your customers provide you with their own empty cases to load you are not required to submit the 11% excise tax. To do it right you would maybe want to have your own cases with your own headstamp made. They require a 50,000 piece minimum order. While not very many custom coomercial re-loaders do this it would be a nice touch. We have built up a nice local classifieds online source here in Utah for ammunition & re-loading components & one thing we have to watch to not get it shut down is to keep unlicensed re-loaders selling their re-loads off the site. http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=231&cat=379

05-13-2009, 11:20 AM	#16
gdmoody Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Northeast Georgia Contributor Posts: 6,334	Re: Is this happening to anybody else? pop, thanks. That is an interesting website. A radio station website? I will ask my friend, the gun shop owner, if he is aware of the 06 license. I wonder, if he is an 01 dealer, does that cover the reloading and selling his reloads __________________ NRA Endowment Member GeorgiaCarry.Org Member Retired US Army Postal Worker Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take an ass whoopin'.....author unknown (but obviously brilliant)

05-13-2009, 01:40 PM	#17
JLA TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Heart Of Texas Contributor Posts: 17,317	Re: Is this happening to anybody else? Yes moody, a dealers license covers the manufacture and sale of reloaded ammo to the public. And on a different note... 'F' the gubment and lawyers, they ruin all the fun... __________________ It takes 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, and 3 for proper trigger squeeze. The latest caliber or gear is no substitute for experience and skill. Rifles and cartridges don't make hits -- shooters do. Fact of life: After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF!

05-13-2009, 01:57 PM	#18
Lunicy Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 16	Re: Is this happening to anybody else? Have been asked a few times. They usually can't agree to the price These are fine made, handcrafted rounds. Not the bulk made rounds coming out of giant factories. Anyone can buy a printed 8.5x11 print of the Mona Lisa for next to nothing. However the handcrafted Mona Lisa is priceless. Lets check the price list shall we..... One box of 9mm, $375.00. Will that be cash or check? As you can tell I don't sell my reloads.

05-13-2009, 04:40 PM	#19
Crpdeth Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Location: Location Contributor Posts: 8,247	Re: Is this happening to anybody else? I had a friend bugging me for awhile, all he wanted was one box per year for deer season, fine tuned to his rifle, which meant that I would need to be in possession of an extremely nice .270 that was not mine, drive back and forth to the range, burning up time and components to dial it in... After that it would be no trick to simply pull out the recipe for his rifle and roll up 20 rounds each season for a nice profit, but ultimately decided against it. Hey, if I blow my face off, no real loss, I'm already uglier than a mud fence, but I couldn't live with myself if the unthinkable happened to a friend. Crpdeth __________________ Our greatest pretenses are built up not to hide the evil and the ugly in us, but our emptiness. The hardest thing to hide is something that is not there. ~Eric Hoffer

05-13-2009, 05:05 PM	#20
Insulation Tim Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Ohio Contributor Posts: 2,298	Re: Is this happening to anybody else? Actually, what got me started into reloading .45ACP rounds was when I purchased some reloads from the RSO at my club. He loads them much lighter than factory loads and I liked the way they had less recoil. I flat out shot better with them. In hindsight, it may have been rude for me to even ask. __________________ Tim *"Remember the Ark was built by amateurs....Professionals built the Titanic"*

05-13-2009, 06:55 PM	#21
JLA TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Heart Of Texas Contributor Posts: 17,317	Re: Is this happening to anybody else? opinions differ, I see no problem in helping a friend out __________________ It takes 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, and 3 for proper trigger squeeze. The latest caliber or gear is no substitute for experience and skill. Rifles and cartridges don't make hits -- shooters do. Fact of life: After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF!

05-13-2009, 11:24 PM	#22
Popgunner Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Contributor Posts: 1,764	Re: Is this happening to anybody else? The gunshop owner/FFL should contact the BATFE to find out if he's really legit. He would have to check: Does he have enough general liability insurance to cover himself if something happens. Is his shop in a light manufacturing zone or just a commercial zone. Manufacturing for sale from a house wouldn't be legit. Business license(he's probably got that) Any state & local licences for manufacturing. Does he have employees? if so, more hoops to jump thru.

05-14-2009, 08:10 AM	#23
LDBennett Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Hesperia, CA Posts: 5,715	Re: Is this happening to anybody else? I would never reload for anyone or sell reloads to anyone. Way too risky! I do reload for one friend but he is present for the session and helps in the process, even pulling the press handle. He only shoots when I am present or at least that was the way it was when he could still shoot. He is totally occupied now by the declining health of his wife and can not go shooting at all. Maybe some day (??). Anyway he would buy the components and the situation was that I was helping him reload. LDBennett

05-14-2009, 10:27 AM	#24
gdmoody Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Northeast Georgia Contributor Posts: 6,334	Re: Is this happening to anybody else? I went by the shop on the way to work yesterday and asked about his reloading set up. He said that he was very aware of the 06 manufacturers FFL. He told me that he does not "sell" his ammo, the presses are there for any customer who wants to learn to reload and he allows them to do that at his shop for the costs of the components. So he basically gets around the requirements, I guess. His explanation works for me, anyway. __________________ NRA Endowment Member GeorgiaCarry.Org Member Retired US Army Postal Worker Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take an ass whoopin'.....author unknown (but obviously brilliant)

05-14-2009, 10:31 AM	#25
JLA TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Heart Of Texas Contributor Posts: 17,317	Re: Is this happening to anybody else? That a hell of an idea, and an admirable cause. Shake his hand for me __________________ It takes 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, and 3 for proper trigger squeeze. The latest caliber or gear is no substitute for experience and skill. Rifles and cartridges don't make hits -- shooters do. Fact of life: After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF!