Took three 45ACP's to the range yesterday - The Firearms Forum

LDBennett · 08-12-2008, 07:50 AM

For comparison purposes I took three different 45ACP pistols to the range, none of which were 1911's. I took a Witness, the CZ97, and a Sig P220 (actually a Browning imported Sig from the 1970's). All are full sized guns with full length barrels (no compacts here!)

I shot two mags into a target with a 4 3/4 inch 9 ring, with the gun unsupported, and two mags into another target with my shooting hand rested on a sand bag. The range was 50 feet outdoors with no wind. The results were interesting.

All the unsuported gun targets were very similar indicating to me that I was the limit. All shots on all targets were inside the 9 ring (4 3/4 inches) which is about normal for me (66 year old eyes and body that hurts with any exertion beyond watching TV :-) :-) ).

With the gun hand rested, the CZ and Witness targets look similar with about 25% of the shots outside of one big hole. The Witness groups looks a little better but not much. The Sig group is tighter. It has a smaller big hole with 25% just outside the big hole.

I would rate the Sig definitely first for accuracy. It also was lighter and easier to handle. The grip was just right for my hand size. The trigger pull was longer but nice (it does have lighter after market springs). It did recoil a little bit more.

Next was the Witness for accuracy. The gun was heavy and the trigger very good (it too has trigger work). The grip was just on my limit for size as I have small hands. I hadn't inspected this gun for some time and for an Italian CZ clone it is remarkably well made. I renewed my affection for it.

The CZ accuracy was not that far off the Witness and on another day it might have done better (meaning I might shoot it better). The gun is heavy and the circumference of the grip is big. I could hang onto it OK but it most certainly is one of my larger gripped and heavier guns! The trigger was good but not great regardless that it too has some trigger work. The big problem is that CZ chooses safety over trigger pull niceness by including a lot of cam back of the hammer during the trigger pull. That leads to a perception of creep to me. Nothing short of changing sear/hammer engagement angles will remove the camming of the hammer and as this is really a tactical weapon and not a match weapon I will leave the cam back in the gun, at least for now. It still leaves me wanting to shoot it more.

The surprises were that:
* the Sig accuracy was so good

* the Witness was so nicely made, shot so well and had such a nice trigger

* the CZ was so heavy, the grip so big, and the accuracy not quite up with the SIG and that the trigger could be better

All three of these guns are real keepers, each for its own reason, but I'll have to admit the SIG is a great gun even though I am a died-in-the-wool CZ fan. The Witness's qualities surprised me.

I suppose I should have taken my much modified Rock Island 1911 but as the frame was suppose to be dedicated to my Marvel 22LR conversion, I decided against tearing the gun appart to make it into a 45ACP just for testing. I do know I have seen some pretty small gourps out of this gun as a 45ACP gun and it might be better in that regard than the SIG (???).

LDBennett

Shellback · 08-12-2008, 01:27 PM

Great range report gotta love those Sigs..
Tim

noslolo · 08-13-2008, 01:07 AM

Congrats, it sounds like you had a great time.

Dirtypacman · 08-13-2008, 09:39 AM

Thanks for the range report - I appeciate all and any feedback on peoples goodies.

jacksonco · 08-13-2008, 10:33 PM

I like guns. Yep, I likem a lot esp them foty-fivers. Good post.

Taurus_9mm · 01-17-2010, 10:09 PM

A person can never have too many .45s.

08-12-2008, 07:50 AM	#1
LDBennett Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Hesperia, CA Posts: 5,754	Took three 45ACP's to the range yesterday For comparison purposes I took three different 45ACP pistols to the range, none of which were 1911's. I took a Witness, the CZ97, and a Sig P220 (actually a Browning imported Sig from the 1970's). All are full sized guns with full length barrels (no compacts here!) I shot two mags into a target with a 4 3/4 inch 9 ring, with the gun unsupported, and two mags into another target with my shooting hand rested on a sand bag. The range was 50 feet outdoors with no wind. The results were interesting. All the unsuported gun targets were very similar indicating to me that I was the limit. All shots on all targets were inside the 9 ring (4 3/4 inches) which is about normal for me (66 year old eyes and body that hurts with any exertion beyond watching TV :-) :-) ). With the gun hand rested, the CZ and Witness targets look similar with about 25% of the shots outside of one big hole. The Witness groups looks a little better but not much. The Sig group is tighter. It has a smaller big hole with 25% just outside the big hole. I would rate the Sig definitely first for accuracy. It also was lighter and easier to handle. The grip was just right for my hand size. The trigger pull was longer but nice (it does have lighter after market springs). It did recoil a little bit more. Next was the Witness for accuracy. The gun was heavy and the trigger very good (it too has trigger work). The grip was just on my limit for size as I have small hands. I hadn't inspected this gun for some time and for an Italian CZ clone it is remarkably well made. I renewed my affection for it. The CZ accuracy was not that far off the Witness and on another day it might have done better (meaning I might shoot it better). The gun is heavy and the circumference of the grip is big. I could hang onto it OK but it most certainly is one of my larger gripped and heavier guns! The trigger was good but not great regardless that it too has some trigger work. The big problem is that CZ chooses safety over trigger pull niceness by including a lot of cam back of the hammer during the trigger pull. That leads to a perception of creep to me. Nothing short of changing sear/hammer engagement angles will remove the camming of the hammer and as this is really a tactical weapon and not a match weapon I will leave the cam back in the gun, at least for now. It still leaves me wanting to shoot it more. The surprises were that: * the Sig accuracy was so good * the Witness was so nicely made, shot so well and had such a nice trigger * the CZ was so heavy, the grip so big, and the accuracy not quite up with the SIG and that the trigger could be better All three of these guns are real keepers, each for its own reason, but I'll have to admit the SIG is a great gun even though I am a died-in-the-wool CZ fan. The Witness's qualities surprised me. I suppose I should have taken my much modified Rock Island 1911 but as the frame was suppose to be dedicated to my Marvel 22LR conversion, I decided against tearing the gun appart to make it into a 45ACP just for testing. I do know I have seen some pretty small gourps out of this gun as a 45ACP gun and it might be better in that regard than the SIG (???). LDBennett --> Last edited by LDBennett; 08-12-2008 at 07:51 AM..

08-12-2008, 01:27 PM	#2
Shellback Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Broken Arrow Ok Posts: 950	Re: Took three 45ACP's to the range yesterday Great range report gotta love those Sigs.. Tim __________________ The Plumber Protects The Health of the Nation New World Order never, Sovreignty Forever

08-13-2008, 01:07 AM	#3
noslolo Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Johnstown PA Posts: 1,559	Re: Took three 45ACP's to the range yesterday Congrats, it sounds like you had a great time. __________________ I'm a heck of a "obesito illegitimo"

08-13-2008, 09:39 AM	#4
Dirtypacman Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Merrimac Valley, MA Posts: 908	Re: Took three 45ACP's to the range yesterday Thanks for the range report - I appeciate all and any feedback on peoples goodies. __________________ Member HHRG and HSC, NRA Life Member, GOAL Member LTC-A

08-13-2008, 10:33 PM	#5
jacksonco Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Jackson County West Virginia Posts: 2,237	Re: Took three 45ACP's to the range yesterday I like guns. Yep, I likem a lot esp them foty-fivers. Good post.

01-17-2010, 10:09 PM	#6
Taurus_9mm V.I.P. Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Louisville, Kentucky Posts: 345	Re: Took three 45ACP's to the range yesterday A person can never have too many .45s.