Glock 17 - The Firearms Forum

emcpowell · 03-08-2010, 09:33 PM

Just bought to 17's paid $500each. Loved the guns, till I took them to the range. Both guns over 6in off at 20 yards. One left high the other left low. Sad to spend that much money and have to turn around and spend more to get it to shoot straight. Any one have the same issue.

kda · 03-09-2010, 02:07 PM

Have someone else shoot it, some one that is a good shot with Glocks. Then you'll know more about the source of the problem. Don't go spending money on adjusting or replacing sights or anything else until you do this. Will save you some money.

Double D · 03-09-2010, 03:08 PM

What kind of ammo are you using? I normally wouldnt ask that until I used independence ammo and it shot way off target.

hogger129 · 03-09-2010, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emcpowell

Just bought to 17's paid $500each. Loved the guns, till I took them to the range. Both guns over 6in off at 20 yards. One left high the other left low. Sad to spend that much money and have to turn around and spend more to get it to shoot straight. Any one have the same issue.

Sorry to hear that. I'm usually pretty accurate with Glocks. Have someone else try em out and see if you get the same results.

old semperfi · 03-09-2010, 06:18 PM

TRY SHOOTING OFF OF A REST(SAND BAG)I WOULD ALSO TRY DIFFERENT AMMO AND WAS SUGGESTED LET SOMEONE ELSE SHOOT THEM.IM SORRY THE GUNS MAY BE THAT FAR OFF BUT.................. OLD SEMPERFI

Slabsides · 03-09-2010, 06:19 PM

Agreed. Have someone else that is very familiar with Glocks shoot them. Could be sight adjustment or maybe you are doing something odd (not saying its you, but if we want to improve ourselves, we must always keep an open mind and be receptive to constructive criticism).

I've shot a ton of Glocks and have not seen any that far off that have not been altered. If they are new, they were test fired at the factory and the 2 shells included in the envelope as proof. If they are used, then no telling what has been done to them. As for new, Glock has a pretty tight Quality Control program.

I shoot my G17 in IDPA and put no less than 500rds a month through it. It hits dead on. Aprox. 3000 rounds so far and each one has hit right where I pointed it.

emcpowell · 03-10-2010, 09:15 PM

I had a friend with me a the range. Both of us shot pretty much the same pattern. We had both Federal 115 FMJ and Winchester 115 FMJ no noticible differnce in ammo. Both guns bought new! I will try shooting off bags this weekend. Someone else said just running more ammo might help with problem, But I dont see that. Thanks for the help.[/B]

emcpowell · 03-11-2010, 09:20 PM

Talked to Glock Customer Service. They said there factory standard is 2" at 15 yards. So feasibly that could be 3-4 inchs at 20 yards. Said I could take them back to dealer and send them back to Glock. Turn around would be 6-8 weeks. I'm going to take a sand bag to range this weekend and totally eliminate operator error.

JLA · 03-12-2010, 08:49 AM

how far off are they in inches from the point of aim? and are you and your buddy left or right handed?

emcpowell · 03-12-2010, 08:43 PM

Six inches both are right handed

JLA · 03-12-2010, 09:17 PM

6 inches really isnt bad at 60 feet for a defensive gun. Loosen your grip a little on your off hand, gripping your right hand too tightly with your left while shooting will pull groups left. Try shooting groups from a rest with the pistols. if they still shoot left then its safe to say they need adjustment...

bntyhntr6975 · 03-13-2010, 11:02 PM

Sounds like shooter error to me. No offense meant. Stop jerking that long hard trigger and they should stop going left. My wife (also right handed) used to impact most of her hits (G17) to the left until she got better control. Of course, a 2.5lbs disconector and a short trigger reset will help alot too.

kda · 03-14-2010, 01:48 PM

Here is something I teach shooters I work with. Learn to stack the trigger. This is especially easy to learn to do on a Glock.

To learn stacking the trigger, make certain your weapon is empty. Check it again. Point in a safe location. With the trigger in the forward, unfired position, begin to pull back on the trigger and feel what is happening. You will find that the first 2/3rd (approx) of the trigger pull is quite easy ... almost effortless. Then you hit a pretty firm resistant point for the last 1/3rd of the trigger pull.

Practice pulling the trigger through that first 2/3rds repeatedly, each time learning to stop the pull at the end of the "easy pull". Note your weapon does not fire. OK, with the trigger back about 2/3rd of the way, the trigger is now stacked. Learn to do this instinctively when you raise the weapon to the target. Practice until it becomes automatic, something you can do easily and safely without much thought.

When you are on target but still working on perfecting your sight pattern, you should automatically be "stacking" the trigger. By the time the sight pattern is at the exact point of the target where you want to shoot, your finger should already be on a "stacked" trigger ready to pull that last 1/3rd of the trigger pull distance.

Now, all you have left for trigger pull is a relatively short 1/3rd range of trigger travel that will actually fire the weapon. Practice pulling this last 1/3rd by dry firing while you watch your sights. If you train to make that last 1/3rd pull of the trigger smooth and along an axis that is exactly parallel to the bore ... you'll see the sights don't move at all when the striker drops. Using the last pad on your trigger finger (not the joint), pull straight back smoothly and with firm conviction. If you don't jerk, push or palm your trigger stroke, your sights will stay precisely on target after the trigger pull is complete.

All this helps because you are not standing with sights on target, trying to maintain that perfect sight picture while you slowly pull through a long trigger pull. Trying to shoot like this is a recipe for disaster. Usually it encourages the shooter to rush and yank the trigger to get the shot off before the sights drift off target. Some older shooters find they cannot hold a good sight pattern for a long period of time.

Stacking the trigger as you get the weapon directed at the target leaves you with only a small amount of trigger movement to make once the sight picture is "perfected". And training for the perfect trigger pull through that last 1/3rd is relatively easy.

Learning to shoot your Glock like this changes everything. And note, nothing here suggests that you have your finger inside the trigger guard or on the trigger before your weapon is aimed at the general target.

emcpowell · 03-14-2010, 07:18 PM

Thanks for the tip! Will work stacking the trigger. Everyone thanks for the info.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kda

Here is something I teach shooters I work with. Learn to stack the trigger. This is especially easy to learn to do on a Glock.

To learn stacking the trigger, make certain your weapon is empty. Check it again. Point in a safe location. With the trigger in the forward, unfired position, begin to pull back on the trigger and feel what is happening. You will find that the first 2/3rd (approx) of the trigger pull is quite easy ... almost effortless. Then you hit a pretty firm resistant point for the last 1/3rd of the trigger pull.

Practice pulling the trigger through that first 2/3rds repeatedly, each time learning to stop the pull at the end of the "easy pull". Note your weapon does not fire. OK, with the trigger back about 2/3rd of the way, the trigger is now stacked. Learn to do this instinctively when you raise the weapon to the target. Practice until it becomes automatic, something you can do easily and safely without much thought.

When you are on target but still working on perfecting your sight pattern, you should automatically be "stacking" the trigger. By the time the sight pattern is at the exact point of the target where you want to shoot, your finger should already be on a "stacked" trigger ready to pull that last 1/3rd of the trigger pull distance.

Now, all you have left for trigger pull is a relatively short 1/3rd range of trigger travel that will actually fire the weapon. Practice pulling this last 1/3rd by dry firing while you watch your sights. If you train to make that last 1/3rd pull of the trigger smooth and along an axis that is exactly parallel to the bore ... you'll see the sights don't move at all when the striker drops. Using the last pad on your trigger finger (not the joint), pull straight back smoothly and with firm conviction. If you don't jerk, push or palm your trigger stroke, your sights will stay precisely on target after the trigger pull is complete.

All this helps because you are not standing with sights on target, trying to maintain that perfect sight picture while you slowly pull through a long trigger pull. Trying to shoot like this is a recipe for disaster. Usually it encourages the shooter to rush and yank the trigger to get the shot off before the sights drift off target. Some older shooters find they cannot hold a good sight pattern for a long period of time.

Stacking the trigger as you get the weapon directed at the target leaves you with only a small amount of trigger movement to make once the sight picture is "perfected". And training for the perfect trigger pull through that last 1/3rd is relatively easy.

Learning to shoot your Glock like this changes everything. And note, nothing here suggests that you have your finger inside the trigger guard or on the trigger before your weapon is aimed at the general target.

JLA · 03-15-2010, 08:36 PM

you can add to the stacking and get some good loading and unloading drills using snap caps.

big steve · 03-15-2010, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kda

Here is something I teach shooters I work with. Learn to stack the trigger. This is especially easy to learn to do on a Glock.

To learn stacking the trigger, make certain your weapon is empty. Check it again. Point in a safe location. With the trigger in the forward, unfired position, begin to pull back on the trigger and feel what is happening. You will find that the first 2/3rd (approx) of the trigger pull is quite easy ... almost effortless. Then you hit a pretty firm resistant point for the last 1/3rd of the trigger pull.

Practice pulling the trigger through that first 2/3rds repeatedly, each time learning to stop the pull at the end of the "easy pull". Note your weapon does not fire. OK, with the trigger back about 2/3rd of the way, the trigger is now stacked. Learn to do this instinctively when you raise the weapon to the target. Practice until it becomes automatic, something you can do easily and safely without much thought.

When you are on target but still working on perfecting your sight pattern, you should automatically be "stacking" the trigger. By the time the sight pattern is at the exact point of the target where you want to shoot, your finger should already be on a "stacked" trigger ready to pull that last 1/3rd of the trigger pull distance.

Now, all you have left for trigger pull is a relatively short 1/3rd range of trigger travel that will actually fire the weapon. Practice pulling this last 1/3rd by dry firing while you watch your sights. If you train to make that last 1/3rd pull of the trigger smooth and along an axis that is exactly parallel to the bore ... you'll see the sights don't move at all when the striker drops. Using the last pad on your trigger finger (not the joint), pull straight back smoothly and with firm conviction. If you don't jerk, push or palm your trigger stroke, your sights will stay precisely on target after the trigger pull is complete.

All this helps because you are not standing with sights on target, trying to maintain that perfect sight picture while you slowly pull through a long trigger pull. Trying to shoot like this is a recipe for disaster. Usually it encourages the shooter to rush and yank the trigger to get the shot off before the sights drift off target. Some older shooters find they cannot hold a good sight pattern for a long period of time.

Stacking the trigger as you get the weapon directed at the target leaves you with only a small amount of trigger movement to make once the sight picture is "perfected". And training for the perfect trigger pull through that last 1/3rd is relatively easy.

Learning to shoot your Glock like this changes everything. And note, nothing here suggests that you have your finger inside the trigger guard or on the trigger before your weapon is aimed at the general target.

thats good advice. thanks for sharing

kda · 03-17-2010, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by big steve

thats good advice. thanks for sharing

Thanks. It is well worth learning, hope it serves you well.

Rocketman1 · 03-18-2010, 09:10 PM

The first hand gun I ever shot was a double action revolver. My father taught me to shoot it in double action mode, and it had a very heavy trigger pull. He taught me that staging the trigger was a bad habbit. In a defensive situation you will not be stagging that trigger, you will be pulling it quickly.

Just something to think about.

JLA · 03-18-2010, 10:03 PM

I disagree rocketman. In a defense situation you will be doing what youre trained to do. Its human nature to panic when you dont know what to do. So in my mind, specific training is the only key to surviving an 'incident'. Casual shooters and internet commandos are the ones that panic and empty the gun at the target only to hit it once and find its not neutralized and have to fumble around with reloading because the procedure isnt second nature. or worse, have the weapon jam up because the scared out of his mind shooter limp wristed their automatic causing a stove pipe, which can require full attention and 3 hands to clear if you havent trained properly and are familiar with the malfunction. TRAINING is key, and you really dont need an instructor. Just some experienced direction and tons of practice...

emcpowell · 03-21-2010, 02:54 PM

OK, I shot my first IDPA event today and didnt have any issues with it shooting left. So I will admit it was shooter error. Thanks for all the great info in your replies.

kda · 03-21-2010, 07:12 PM

^^^^ Decent of you to come back and let us know. Most wouldn't have done that. Thanks.

EL TORO · 03-28-2010, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emcpowell

Just bought to 17's paid $500each. Loved the guns, till I took them to the range. Both guns over 6in off at 20 yards. One left high the other left low. Sad to spend that much money and have to turn around and spend more to get it to shoot straight. Any one have the same issue.

My guess is it's shooter induced...Practice, practice with trigger control. Sit at home and dryfire for hundreds of times. I suspect problem is your new to the Glock trigger and for me, I also have to alter my grip to shoot straight. Blocky grip does not ride in my hand like all the others do and I have to adjust, then, its a one hole shooter...

emcpowell · 04-01-2010, 08:37 PM

EL Toro your correct. Once I ran several hundred rounds it started feeling different. I guess I just starting to compensate my grip. A lot more accurate. I am back in love with my Glock. Sorry to admit I almost traded her before we worked out our differences.

JLA · 04-01-2010, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emcpowell

EL Toro your correct. Once I ran several hundred rounds it started feeling different. I guess I just starting to compensate my grip. A lot more accurate. I am back in love with my Glock. Sorry to admit I almost traded her before we worked out our differences.

Id wager that has happened to nearly all of us at least once

Double D · 04-02-2010, 09:02 AM

Funny, I just sold a smith and wesson sigma to a guy who complained about a 6 inch off at 20 ft. Now the sigma is the clone of the glock that glock sued them over. The trigger has a long pull. I had him bring it over and I shot a magazine thru it and tore the center out of the target at 21 ft. Nothing wrong with the gun. I coached him on the trigger and he was shooting noce groups before he left.

03-08-2010, 09:33 PM	#1
emcpowell Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 10	Glock 17 Just bought to 17's paid $500each. Loved the guns, till I took them to the range. Both guns over 6in off at 20 yards. One left high the other left low. Sad to spend that much money and have to turn around and spend more to get it to shoot straight. Any one have the same issue. -->

03-09-2010, 02:07 PM	#2
kda Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 49	Re: Glock 17 Have someone else shoot it, some one that is a good shot with Glocks. Then you'll know more about the source of the problem. Don't go spending money on adjusting or replacing sights or anything else until you do this. Will save you some money. __________________ Always Carry, Never Tell NRA Life Member, GSSF member, AZCDL member I no longer trust my government to act on my behalf.

03-09-2010, 03:08 PM	#3
Double D TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: North Florida Contributor Posts: 8,060	Re: Glock 17 What kind of ammo are you using? I normally wouldnt ask that until I used independence ammo and it shot way off target. __________________ I own a bunch of scary guns. You want em? Come and take em..... Liberalism is a serious, non curable, mental disorder... NRA LIFE MEMBER Oath Keepers Member NRA Certified Instructor 30 Yr CC permit holder.

03-09-2010, 06:18 PM	#5
old semperfi Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: i live in southern indiana,old country boy at heart Posts: 1,506	Re: Glock 17 TRY SHOOTING OFF OF A REST(SAND BAG)I WOULD ALSO TRY DIFFERENT AMMO AND WAS SUGGESTED LET SOMEONE ELSE SHOOT THEM.IM SORRY THE GUNS MAY BE THAT FAR OFF BUT.................. OLD SEMPERFI

03-09-2010, 06:19 PM	#6
Slabsides Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: L.A. (Lower Alabama) Posts: 922	Re: Glock 17 Agreed. Have someone else that is very familiar with Glocks shoot them. Could be sight adjustment or maybe you are doing something odd (not saying its you, but if we want to improve ourselves, we must always keep an open mind and be receptive to constructive criticism). I've shot a ton of Glocks and have not seen any that far off that have not been altered. If they are new, they were test fired at the factory and the 2 shells included in the envelope as proof. If they are used, then no telling what has been done to them. As for new, Glock has a pretty tight Quality Control program. I shoot my G17 in IDPA and put no less than 500rds a month through it. It hits dead on. Aprox. 3000 rounds so far and each one has hit right where I pointed it. __________________ /l ,[____], l---L -OlllllllO- ()_)-()_)-o-)_)

03-10-2010, 09:15 PM	#7
emcpowell Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 10	Re: Glock 17 I had a friend with me a the range. Both of us shot pretty much the same pattern. We had both Federal 115 FMJ and Winchester 115 FMJ no noticible differnce in ammo. Both guns bought new! I will try shooting off bags this weekend. Someone else said just running more ammo might help with problem, But I dont see that. Thanks for the help.[/B]

03-11-2010, 09:20 PM	#8
emcpowell Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 10	Re: Glock 17 Talked to Glock Customer Service. They said there factory standard is 2" at 15 yards. So feasibly that could be 3-4 inchs at 20 yards. Said I could take them back to dealer and send them back to Glock. Turn around would be 6-8 weeks. I'm going to take a sand bag to range this weekend and totally eliminate operator error.

03-12-2010, 08:49 AM	#9
JLA TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Heart Of Texas Contributor Posts: 17,308	Re: Glock 17 how far off are they in inches from the point of aim? and are you and your buddy left or right handed? __________________ It takes 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, and 3 for proper trigger squeeze. The latest caliber or gear is no substitute for experience and skill. Rifles and cartridges don't make hits -- shooters do. Fact of life: After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF!

03-12-2010, 08:43 PM	#10
emcpowell Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 10	Re: Glock 17 Six inches both are right handed

03-12-2010, 09:17 PM	#11
JLA TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Heart Of Texas Contributor Posts: 17,308	Re: Glock 17 6 inches really isnt bad at 60 feet for a defensive gun. Loosen your grip a little on your off hand, gripping your right hand too tightly with your left while shooting will pull groups left. Try shooting groups from a rest with the pistols. if they still shoot left then its safe to say they need adjustment... __________________ It takes 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, and 3 for proper trigger squeeze. The latest caliber or gear is no substitute for experience and skill. Rifles and cartridges don't make hits -- shooters do. Fact of life: After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF!

03-13-2010, 11:02 PM	#12
bntyhntr6975 V.I.P. Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Wichita, Ks. Posts: 258	Re: Glock 17 Sounds like shooter error to me. No offense meant. Stop jerking that long hard trigger and they should stop going left. My wife (also right handed) used to impact most of her hits (G17) to the left until she got better control. Of course, a 2.5lbs disconector and a short trigger reset will help alot too. __________________ There is a fine line between paranoid and prepared.

03-14-2010, 01:48 PM	#13
kda Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 49	Re: Glock 17 Here is something I teach shooters I work with. Learn to stack the trigger. This is especially easy to learn to do on a Glock. To learn stacking the trigger, make certain your weapon is empty. Check it again. Point in a safe location. With the trigger in the forward, unfired position, begin to pull back on the trigger and feel what is happening. You will find that the first 2/3rd (approx) of the trigger pull is quite easy ... almost effortless. Then you hit a pretty firm resistant point for the last 1/3rd of the trigger pull. Practice pulling the trigger through that first 2/3rds repeatedly, each time learning to stop the pull at the end of the "easy pull". Note your weapon does not fire. OK, with the trigger back about 2/3rd of the way, the trigger is now stacked. Learn to do this instinctively when you raise the weapon to the target. Practice until it becomes automatic, something you can do easily and safely without much thought. When you are on target but still working on perfecting your sight pattern, you should automatically be "stacking" the trigger. By the time the sight pattern is at the exact point of the target where you want to shoot, your finger should already be on a "stacked" trigger ready to pull that last 1/3rd of the trigger pull distance. Now, all you have left for trigger pull is a relatively short 1/3rd range of trigger travel that will actually fire the weapon. Practice pulling this last 1/3rd by dry firing while you watch your sights. If you train to make that last 1/3rd pull of the trigger smooth and along an axis that is exactly parallel to the bore ... you'll see the sights don't move at all when the striker drops. Using the last pad on your trigger finger (not the joint), pull straight back smoothly and with firm conviction. If you don't jerk, push or palm your trigger stroke, your sights will stay precisely on target after the trigger pull is complete. All this helps because you are not standing with sights on target, trying to maintain that perfect sight picture while you slowly pull through a long trigger pull. Trying to shoot like this is a recipe for disaster. Usually it encourages the shooter to rush and yank the trigger to get the shot off before the sights drift off target. Some older shooters find they cannot hold a good sight pattern for a long period of time. Stacking the trigger as you get the weapon directed at the target leaves you with only a small amount of trigger movement to make once the sight picture is "perfected". And training for the perfect trigger pull through that last 1/3rd is relatively easy. Learning to shoot your Glock like this changes everything. And note, nothing here suggests that you have your finger inside the trigger guard or on the trigger before your weapon is aimed at the general target. __________________ Always Carry, Never Tell NRA Life Member, GSSF member, AZCDL member I no longer trust my government to act on my behalf.

03-15-2010, 08:36 PM	#15
JLA TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Heart Of Texas Contributor Posts: 17,308	Re: Glock 17 you can add to the stacking and get some good loading and unloading drills using snap caps. __________________ It takes 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, and 3 for proper trigger squeeze. The latest caliber or gear is no substitute for experience and skill. Rifles and cartridges don't make hits -- shooters do. Fact of life: After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF!

03-18-2010, 09:10 PM	#18
Rocketman1 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 1,097	Re: Glock 17 The first hand gun I ever shot was a double action revolver. My father taught me to shoot it in double action mode, and it had a very heavy trigger pull. He taught me that staging the trigger was a bad habbit. In a defensive situation you will not be stagging that trigger, you will be pulling it quickly. Just something to think about.

03-18-2010, 10:03 PM	#19
JLA TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Heart Of Texas Contributor Posts: 17,308	Re: Glock 17 I disagree rocketman. In a defense situation you will be doing what youre trained to do. Its human nature to panic when you dont know what to do. So in my mind, specific training is the only key to surviving an 'incident'. Casual shooters and internet commandos are the ones that panic and empty the gun at the target only to hit it once and find its not neutralized and have to fumble around with reloading because the procedure isnt second nature. or worse, have the weapon jam up because the scared out of his mind shooter limp wristed their automatic causing a stove pipe, which can require full attention and 3 hands to clear if you havent trained properly and are familiar with the malfunction. TRAINING is key, and you really dont need an instructor. Just some experienced direction and tons of practice... __________________ It takes 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, and 3 for proper trigger squeeze. The latest caliber or gear is no substitute for experience and skill. Rifles and cartridges don't make hits -- shooters do. Fact of life: After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF!

03-21-2010, 02:54 PM	#20
emcpowell Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 10	Re: Glock 17 OK, I shot my first IDPA event today and didnt have any issues with it shooting left. So I will admit it was shooter error. Thanks for all the great info in your replies.

03-21-2010, 07:12 PM	#21
kda Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 49	Re: Glock 17 ^^^^ Decent of you to come back and let us know. Most wouldn't have done that. Thanks. __________________ Always Carry, Never Tell NRA Life Member, GSSF member, AZCDL member I no longer trust my government to act on my behalf.

04-01-2010, 08:37 PM	#23
emcpowell Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 10	Re: Glock 17 EL Toro your correct. Once I ran several hundred rounds it started feeling different. I guess I just starting to compensate my grip. A lot more accurate. I am back in love with my Glock. Sorry to admit I almost traded her before we worked out our differences.

04-02-2010, 09:02 AM	#25
Double D TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: North Florida Contributor Posts: 8,060	Re: Glock 17 Funny, I just sold a smith and wesson sigma to a guy who complained about a 6 inch off at 20 ft. Now the sigma is the clone of the glock that glock sued them over. The trigger has a long pull. I had him bring it over and I shot a magazine thru it and tore the center out of the target at 21 ft. Nothing wrong with the gun. I coached him on the trigger and he was shooting noce groups before he left. __________________ I own a bunch of scary guns. You want em? Come and take em..... Liberalism is a serious, non curable, mental disorder... NRA LIFE MEMBER Oath Keepers Member NRA Certified Instructor 30 Yr CC permit holder.