Proper Response - The Firearms Forum

johnlives4christ · 11-03-2010, 03:41 AM

what is the proper response to a situation where your rights are being violated?

lets say for some reason you are instructed by a police officer you cannot exercise your right to speak freely. lets say that you have permission to do so, and are standing outside walmart telling each one "god bless you" and a police officer says you have to stop. he says if you do it one more time hes going to arrest you.

is the proper response to obey?

or is it to continue and then let him arrest you?

or is it to resist with force when he tries to arrest you?

another scenario, lets say you're in your back yard teaching your 7 year old to shoot 22's. and your nosy neighbors call the cops saying you're endangering the welfare of a child. when the cops get there they decide they want to take the child until it can be investigated further by child welfare services.

i would not let them take my kid from me, i would open fire on anyone that tried to take my kid. cop, civilian, government, family member, anyone.

sure this might not be the legal thing to do. but id rather go down in a hail of bullets then tuck my tail and run when concerning some things

The_Rifleman · 11-03-2010, 05:54 AM

Quote:

or is it to continue and then let him arrest you?

That is what I would do. Later you can sue them for violation of your free speech.

I would let the cops take my child; then sue the neighbor for making false reports.

I wouldn't risk my child being in a the middle of a gun battle... especially after I've seen crack addicted mothers get their kids back with little problem.

oscarmayer · 11-03-2010, 08:56 AM

both situations are no win... but you have to obey the law at least the law that is in your face at the moment, you'll be able to fight for your rights in a legal way,a shoot out isn't a good idea. innocent lives at at stake any time gun play is involved, and you want to guess who'll get the blame ? now the other situation where you're just spreading the word , i'd politely tell the officer excuse me but i have a right to free speach, now if the store owner wants you gone thats other issue. if you don't comply you're tresspassing, or maybe your town , city , village etc... requires you have a permit that too is a different story.

carver · 11-03-2010, 09:11 AM

Slow down John, Jeuse tells us to obey the laws. Doing so will give you the opertunity to defend your self at a not to distant date. Disobeying the officer will only hurt you in the end. Comply for now! Every dog gets his day, and you will get yours, and hopefully your nosy neighbor will too!

Jeff Midguard · 11-03-2010, 09:13 AM

19But (AA)Peter and John answered and said to them, "(AB)Whether it is right in the sight of God to give heed to you rather than to God, you be the judge;

20for (AC)we cannot stop speaking about what we have seen and heard."

This is Acts 4:19&20 from Bible Gateway.

oscarmayer · 11-03-2010, 09:40 AM

Well, then," Jesus said, "give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar, and give to God what belongs to God." yes i know this was about taxes, but more importantly it was about obeying caesar's laws.......

lawdawg · 11-03-2010, 02:16 PM

From a Biblical standpoint:

Romans 13 (NIV)

1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.
6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

What did Jesus do when he was wrongly accused by the governing authorities? He submitted without protest! Aren't we supposed to pattern our lives around Him? When Jesus was arrested in the Garden of Gethsemane, Peter rebeled with violence. Jesus rebuked Peter for this. So, I guess it depends upon which path you want to follow, if you choose to be like Christ, or follow the ways of man, that determines how one would react to a situation. Even one of injustice, false accusations, or deprivation of rights.

johnlives4christ · 11-03-2010, 03:43 PM

thanks carver.

i doubt i will ever be in the spot light of a freedom battle. but if i ever am i want to be prepared with the best defense.

RunningOnMT · 11-03-2010, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lawdawg

From a Biblical standpoint:

Romans 13 (NIV)

1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.
6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

What did Jesus do when he was wrongly accused by the governing authorities? He submitted without protest! Aren't we supposed to pattern our lives around Him? When Jesus was arrested in the Garden of Gethsemane, Peter rebeled with violence. Jesus rebuked Peter for this. So, I guess it depends upon which path you want to follow, if you choose to be like Christ, or follow the ways of man, that determines how one would react to a situation. Even one of injustice, false accusations, or deprivation of rights.

Great answer lawdawg but...I have a real problem with authority sometimes; when it is abused or is infringing on my rights. It seems there is a time to comply and a time to resist. After all if our founding fathers had followed that scripture to the letter there would be no United States.

John used the example involving his child. Parental authority is being usurped by the state more and more these days. The united nations has a declaration of the rights of a child which proclaims such things as a childs right to state supervised arbitration whenever a dispute arises between parent and child. Have you ever heard of anything so absurd? Further there idea is to have member nations sign this.

I hate confrontation and I sure don't want to go to jail but....there comes a point when one says "enough is enough". No one has a right to interfere with any activity of a parent and child unless such activity is illegal or serious abuse is occuring.

hogger129 · 11-03-2010, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnlives4christ

what is the proper response to a situation where your rights are being violated?

lets say for some reason you are instructed by a police officer you cannot exercise your right to speak freely. lets say that you have permission to do so, and are standing outside walmart telling each one "god bless you" and a police officer says you have to stop. he says if you do it one more time hes going to arrest you.

is the proper response to obey?

or is it to continue and then let him arrest you?

or is it to resist with force when he tries to arrest you?

another scenario, lets say you're in your back yard teaching your 7 year old to shoot 22's. and your nosy neighbors call the cops saying you're endangering the welfare of a child. when the cops get there they decide they want to take the child until it can be investigated further by child welfare services.

i would not let them take my kid from me, i would open fire on anyone that tried to take my kid. cop, civilian, government, family member, anyone.

sure this might not be the legal thing to do. but id rather go down in a hail of bullets then tuck my tail and run when concerning some things

If I was told I could not say "God Bless You" by a police officer, I would immediately contact the media hoping they would back off out of fear it would cause a public backlash against the police. If they took me away in cuffs, they would be getting a call from a lawyer as I was exercising my rights of free speech peacefully.

If I had a child and the police came to take them away, I would resist too. They'd have to take me too.

To quote Jack404's signature , "When injustice becomes law, resistance is duty..."

ofitg · 11-04-2010, 07:21 PM

Cops are not lawyers. Sometimes they make mistakes. Sometimes they may arrest a person for some behavior which they believe to be illegal, when in fact, the behavior does not violate any law. When that happens, the prosecuting attorney's responsibility is to drop the case.

Also, when that happens, it is the arrestee's prerogative to sue for false arrest.

Resisting an arrest, even a false arrest, never ends well. In the scenario described above, the kids would probably grow up without a father.

johnlives4christ · 11-04-2010, 11:22 PM

i dont wish to be treaded upon

Jeff Midguard · 11-05-2010, 09:22 AM

It comes down to a judgment call where you would have seconds to decide.

Teejay9 · 11-05-2010, 12:45 PM

Why on Earth would a cop say, "You can't say God bless you?" Isn't there something better to do than running around trying to get people NOT to say God Bless you? That must be one slow, sleepy town where the offenders are asking God to bless someone. TJ

ofitg · 11-05-2010, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnlives4christ

i dont wish to be treaded upon

Understandable - nobody wants to be tread upon.

It's just that a person's actions can have consequences which last a lifetime... not just for you, but for your loved ones as well.

I imagine that Randy Weaver wishes he could go back to 1990, when his wife and son were still alive, and do things differently.

If you know you're in the right, then fight it in court. Win a million-dollar settlement, watch the jack-booted bozos lose their jobs.... it's a good way to send a message and you don't have to get killed in the process.

hogger129 · 11-05-2010, 08:10 PM

All authority must be questioned...

johnlives4christ · 11-05-2010, 09:53 PM

im not against dying.. im just trying to decide where the line is.

ofitg · 11-05-2010, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnlives4christ

im not against dying.. im just trying to decide where the line is.

Again, understandable.

Everybody will die. Maybe the issue is, would you accomplish more good by living? Or by dying?

Sounds like you're a family man. That should factor in there, somehow.

johnlives4christ · 11-05-2010, 10:13 PM

it does, the wife and i dont have any kids, and we have some sort of line drawn already. we will not be forced to leave our house, or be forced to go unarmed from our house in an emergency situation. we will also not let anyone take our kids (when we have them) no matter the situation.

good to have a woman that agrees there are some things worth dying for. because we are christians we are not afraid to die. we both agree, gotta die sometime, might as well be for freedom or something we hold dear then of pneumonia

ofitg · 11-05-2010, 10:20 PM

I guess I've always figured that if my door comes off the hinges in the middle of the night and a bunch of storm troopers come rushing in, somebody's gonna die. Probably me.... but with a little luck, I won't be the only one.

johnlives4christ · 11-05-2010, 10:31 PM

wife and i use katrina for a model. we figure if a terrorist attack or a disaster occurs here, we will either die free or get what we desire. either way is fine with us. the same as we wont bow to another god, we wont be forced away from whats ourn, or be forced to go unarmed.

those men and women that are "just doing their jobs" are all going to die one day like we are. its just a matter of when, how, and for what cause.

11-03-2010, 03:41 AM	#1
johnlives4christ Former Guest Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,828	Proper Response what is the proper response to a situation where your rights are being violated? lets say for some reason you are instructed by a police officer you cannot exercise your right to speak freely. lets say that you have permission to do so, and are standing outside walmart telling each one "god bless you" and a police officer says you have to stop. he says if you do it one more time hes going to arrest you. is the proper response to obey? or is it to continue and then let him arrest you? or is it to resist with force when he tries to arrest you? another scenario, lets say you're in your back yard teaching your 7 year old to shoot 22's. and your nosy neighbors call the cops saying you're endangering the welfare of a child. when the cops get there they decide they want to take the child until it can be investigated further by child welfare services. i would not let them take my kid from me, i would open fire on anyone that tried to take my kid. cop, civilian, government, family member, anyone. sure this might not be the legal thing to do. but id rather go down in a hail of bullets then tuck my tail and run when concerning some things --> Last edited by johnlives4christ; 11-03-2010 at 03:46 AM..

11-03-2010, 08:56 AM	#3
oscarmayer Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Contributor Posts: 2,387	Re: Proper Response both situations are no win... but you have to obey the law at least the law that is in your face at the moment, you'll be able to fight for your rights in a legal way,a shoot out isn't a good idea. innocent lives at at stake any time gun play is involved, and you want to guess who'll get the blame ? now the other situation where you're just spreading the word , i'd politely tell the officer excuse me but i have a right to free speach, now if the store owner wants you gone thats other issue. if you don't comply you're tresspassing, or maybe your town , city , village etc... requires you have a permit that too is a different story.

11-03-2010, 09:11 AM	#4
carver TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: DAV, Deep in the Pineywoods of East Texas, just west of Shreveport, LA Contributor Posts: 11,251	Re: Proper Response Slow down John, Jeuse tells us to obey the laws. Doing so will give you the opertunity to defend your self at a not to distant date. Disobeying the officer will only hurt you in the end. Comply for now! Every dog gets his day, and you will get yours, and hopefully your nosy neighbor will too! __________________ Y'all be safe now, ya hear! Lamentations Chapter 5: 1. Remember, O LORD, what is come upon us: consider, and behold our reproach. 2. Our inheritance is turned to strangers, our houses to aliens. 3. We are orphans and fatherless, our mothers [are] as widows. 5. Our necks [are] under persecution: we labour, [and] have no rest. 16. The crown is fallen [from] our head: woe unto us, that we have sinned! 21. Turn thou us unto thee, O LORD, and we shall be turned; renew our days as of old.

11-03-2010, 09:13 AM	#5
Jeff Midguard V.I.P. Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Baja Arizona Posts: 233	Re: Proper Response 19But (AA)Peter and John answered and said to them, "(AB)Whether it is right in the sight of God to give heed to you rather than to God, you be the judge; 20for (AC)we cannot stop speaking about what we have seen and heard." This is Acts 4:19&20 from Bible Gateway.

11-03-2010, 09:40 AM	#6
oscarmayer Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Contributor Posts: 2,387	Re: Proper Response Well, then," Jesus said, "give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar, and give to God what belongs to God." yes i know this was about taxes, but more importantly it was about obeying caesar's laws.......

11-03-2010, 02:16 PM	#7
lawdawg V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: South Alabama Posts: 268	Re: Proper Response From a Biblical standpoint: Romans 13 (NIV) 1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience. 6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor. What did Jesus do when he was wrongly accused by the governing authorities? He submitted without protest! Aren't we supposed to pattern our lives around Him? When Jesus was arrested in the Garden of Gethsemane, Peter rebeled with violence. Jesus rebuked Peter for this. So, I guess it depends upon which path you want to follow, if you choose to be like Christ, or follow the ways of man, that determines how one would react to a situation. Even one of injustice, false accusations, or deprivation of rights. __________________ Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man. Jefferson's "Commonplace Book," 1774_1776, quoting from On Crimes and Punishment, by criminologist Cesare Beccaria, 1764 Last edited by lawdawg; 11-03-2010 at 02:24 PM.. Reason: add text

11-03-2010, 03:43 PM	#8
johnlives4christ Former Guest Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,828	Re: Proper Response thanks carver. i doubt i will ever be in the spot light of a freedom battle. but if i ever am i want to be prepared with the best defense.

11-04-2010, 07:21 PM	#11
ofitg Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Contributor Posts: 1,447	Re: Proper Response Cops are not lawyers. Sometimes they make mistakes. Sometimes they may arrest a person for some behavior which they believe to be illegal, when in fact, the behavior does not violate any law. When that happens, the prosecuting attorney's responsibility is to drop the case. Also, when that happens, it is the arrestee's prerogative to sue for false arrest. Resisting an arrest, even a false arrest, never ends well. In the scenario described above, the kids would probably grow up without a father.

11-04-2010, 11:22 PM	#12
johnlives4christ Former Guest Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,828	Re: Proper Response i dont wish to be treaded upon

11-05-2010, 09:22 AM	#13
Jeff Midguard V.I.P. Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Baja Arizona Posts: 233	Re: Proper Response It comes down to a judgment call where you would have seconds to decide.

11-05-2010, 12:45 PM	#14
Teejay9 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Southwest Corner of the US, "Where no stinking fence will stop us!!" Posts: 1,257	Re: Proper Response Why on Earth would a cop say, "You can't say God bless you?" Isn't there something better to do than running around trying to get people NOT to say God Bless you? That must be one slow, sleepy town where the offenders are asking God to bless someone. TJ __________________ A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have". Thomas Jefferson

11-05-2010, 08:10 PM	#16
hogger129 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 4,064	Re: Proper Response All authority must be questioned...

11-05-2010, 09:53 PM	#17
johnlives4christ Former Guest Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,828	Re: Proper Response im not against dying.. im just trying to decide where the line is.

11-05-2010, 10:13 PM	#19
johnlives4christ Former Guest Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,828	Re: Proper Response it does, the wife and i dont have any kids, and we have some sort of line drawn already. we will not be forced to leave our house, or be forced to go unarmed from our house in an emergency situation. we will also not let anyone take our kids (when we have them) no matter the situation. good to have a woman that agrees there are some things worth dying for. because we are christians we are not afraid to die. we both agree, gotta die sometime, might as well be for freedom or something we hold dear then of pneumonia

11-05-2010, 10:20 PM	#20
ofitg Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Contributor Posts: 1,447	Re: Proper Response I guess I've always figured that if my door comes off the hinges in the middle of the night and a bunch of storm troopers come rushing in, somebody's gonna die. Probably me.... but with a little luck, I won't be the only one.

11-05-2010, 10:31 PM	#21
johnlives4christ Former Guest Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,828	Re: Proper Response wife and i use katrina for a model. we figure if a terrorist attack or a disaster occurs here, we will either die free or get what we desire. either way is fine with us. the same as we wont bow to another god, we wont be forced away from whats ourn, or be forced to go unarmed. those men and women that are "just doing their jobs" are all going to die one day like we are. its just a matter of when, how, and for what cause.