What is a cult?

[ampaterry]

Python, that earlier question was out of line.
You can state a point without posting such inflammatory statements as that one, and I would appreciate it if you would do so. Since there are MULTIPLE ways to interpret scripture, it would be better to ask how someone interprets this or that passage without asking them if they are saying Jesus is not speaking the truth.

I was in charge of a lab during part of my career in Engineering. It is completely true to say that NO product to be tested got into that lab except through me. That does not mean that every one was hand carried by me into the lab, nor that I did the testing personally. It meant that they only got in with my APPROVAL.
When Christ says that no man reaches the Father except by Him, he could have meant the exact same thing; no one gets in without his APPROVAL.

And your insistance on deciding whether or not Bob or anyone else is a Christian is also out of line. I know MANY people who have not reached the point of being comfortable with their own salvation, and I would prefer that to some who are POSITIVE they are saved and become complacent, feeling they have much goods laid up in storage, and they can take their ease - -



ROMT, I LOVE that one! Down here, though, it was told as that group in seclusion were the Church of Christ (VERY big here in the south).

[reynolds357]

Originally Posted by ampaterry

This term has been used on TFF, and caused much upset. There are books written about it, and a LOT of people use the term, but what exactly IS a Cult?

First of all, let us define further that we are NOT speaking of non-Christian groups. The purpose of this post is to define what a Christian cult is, not some non-Christian splinter group like the Unification Church

The best short definition I have heard is this:
A Christian follows Jesus Christ.
A Cult follows some mortal human being.

Wow, that sure sounds good, doesn't it?

But let us dig a little deeper -
I have books that say Roman Catholicism is a cult, because they follow the Pope instead of Jesus Christ.
But - but -
Baptists follow John the Baptist -
Calvinists follow John Calvin -
Lutherans follow Martin Luther (the original, not King)
Almost EVERY denomination follows the teachings, leanings, or flavor of some mortal human being!
So what the heck IS the actual definition of a cult?

It is simple.

My group is Christian.

Your group is a cult.

And a LOT of people follow that.

In my entire life, I have NEVER found a single denomination in which every member is lost.
And I have never found a single denominationo in which every member is saved, either.
People choose a denomination based on many things.
Some folks do not feel near to God without the somber tones of a pipe organ vibrating the air while they pray.
Some feel near to Him only when someone is shaking a tamborine and someone else is shouting.
Some need complete quiet while they commune in their pew.
Others need excitement and "amens" being shouted all around.
Some need the dignity of a leader speaking somber tones while wearing a robe.
Some need a guy wearing a tee shirt and jeans pounding the pulpit with his fist as he makes a point.
And Jesus Christ understands all those needs, and allows us to have a plethora of places to worship Him so that ALL might come to him.

Look on the person, not the name above the door of their church.
Look into their heart, not into the proclamations of the founder of the church they attend.
In the final judgment, Jesus Christ will be doing exactly this.

I am going to have to just 100% disagree with you.
You can not be a Christian Church and be a Cult. It is a doctrinal impossibility.

[Caneman]

I was trying to think of some Christian groups that have been identified as genuine 'Christian cults' over the last 30 years or so... the only two that come to mind are the 'Branch Davidians' lead by David Koresh, and the 'Peoples Temple' lead by Jim Jones... both of these men claimed to be Jesus Christ and preached a salvation based on works alone... I am sure there are others I don't know about but they don't come to mind... the Christian cults always deny the Divinity of the Lord Jesus and salvation by grace alone...

[reynolds357]

Originally Posted by Caneman

I was trying to think of some Christian groups that have been identified as genuine 'Christian cults' over the last 30 years or so... the only two that come to mind are the 'Branch Davidians' lead by David Koresh, and the 'Peoples Temple' lead by Jim Jones... both of these men claimed to be Jesus Christ and preached a salvation based on works alone... I am sure there are others I don't know about but they don't come to mind... the Christian cults always deny the Divinity of the Lord Jesus and salvation by grace alone...

There are many cults that call themselves Christian. When you look at their doctrine, it becomes obvious they are not Christian. The last line of your above post addresses that fact. The branch Davidians would be a most prime example of "Christian" cults not being Christian.

[ampaterry]

Caneman, virtually every Christian Church is identified as a cult by SOMEONE.
That is the problem.
Church A does not like some of the doctrin of church B, so they call them a cult.

You sprinkle, and should dunk.
You are a cult.

You baptize by emersion, but in the name of "The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost", when you should be baptizing ONLY in the name of Jesus.
You are a cult.

You drink alcoholic wine at communion, and alcohol consumption is a sin.
You are a cult.

You drink grape juice at communion instead of wine.
You are a cult.

The decision of who is a Christian is up to Jesus Christ, not to us.
Thankfully, because if everyone somehow had the ability to toss someone else out of heaven, NO ONE would be there.

[BlackEagle]

Originally Posted by jack404

i think the bishop is a fool and i have no doubt i wont be seeing him in Heaven ....

I think there will be two major surprises in heaven: 1. who we see there. 2. who we don't see there.

...and like Bob i dont care what folks say about me either

I agree... the only opinion that really counts is what God has to say about me. I would like to hear Him say something like "well done thou good and faithful servant" when the time comes.

[CampingJosh]

Originally Posted by Python

jack,
Bob says that he's not a Christian. Jesus said that except a man be "born again" that he cannot see the kingdom of heaven. Jesus also said that no man comes to the Father except by Him. Are you saying then that Jesus isn't telling the truth?

Originally Posted by ampaterry

Python, that earlier question was out of line.
You can state a point without posting such inflammatory statements as that one, and I would appreciate it if you would do so. Since there are MULTIPLE ways to interpret scripture, it would be better to ask how someone interprets this or that passage without asking them if they are saying Jesus is not speaking the truth.

I was in charge of a lab during part of my career in Engineering. It is completely true to say that NO product to be tested got into that lab except through me. That does not mean that every one was hand carried by me into the lab, nor that I did the testing personally. It meant that they only got in with my APPROVAL.
When Christ says that no man reaches the Father except by Him, he could have meant the exact same thing; no one gets in without his APPROVAL.

Yes indeed.

I sure hope that the universalists are correct, that Jesus' death saved everyone, whether they chose to accept him or not. But since I don't have confidence in that view, I continue to proclaim Jesus.

I'm not looking to define the term "Christian." I know righteous men who refuse to use it for themselves because of the connotation among some to whom they are trying to witness. "Christians" in that area are known as the ones who stand on the street corner condemning anyone who goes into the Planned Parenthood office rather than the ones who are showing Christ's love to the sick and downtrodden.

It's possible to know Christ and follow Christ without taking the name "Christian."

[reynolds357]

Originally Posted by CampingJosh

Yes indeed.

I sure hope that the universalists are correct, that Jesus' death saved everyone, whether they chose to accept him or not. But since I don't have confidence in that view, I continue to proclaim Jesus.

I'm not looking to define the term "Christian." I know righteous men who refuse to use it for themselves because of the connotation among some to whom they are trying to witness. "Christians" in that area are known as the ones who stand on the street corner condemning anyone who goes into the Planned Parenthood office rather than the ones who are showing Christ's love to the sick and downtrodden.

It's possible to know Christ and follow Christ without taking the name "Christian."

John 3:16-18 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

John 7:37 Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, " If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink.”

Matthew 11:28-30 Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.

Hebrews 7:25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them

2 Corinthians 5:19-20 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

Isaiah 55:6-7Seek the LORD while He may be found; Call upon Him while He is near. Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts; And let him return to the LORD, And He will have compassion on him, And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.

Romans 10:9-10 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

Acts 2:37-39 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?'' Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”

Acts 3:19 "Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;”

Acts 5:31 "He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins”

Acts 17:30 Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,

Romans 2:4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

2 Corinthians 7:10 For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.

Luke 18:18-30 A ruler questioned Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?'' And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. You know the commandments, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.'' And he said, "All these things I have kept from my youth.'' When Jesus heard this, He said to him, "One thing you still lack; sell all that you possess and distribute it to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.'' But when he had heard these things, he became very sad, for he was extremely rich. And Jesus looked at him and said, " How hard it is for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God! For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.'' They who heard it said, "Then who can be saved?'' But He said, "The things that are impossible with people are possible with God.'' Peter said, "Behold, we have left our own homes and followed You.'' And He said to them, "Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life.''

Luke 19:1-10 He entered Jericho and was passing through. And there was a man called by the name of Zaccheus; he was a chief tax collector and he was rich. Zaccheus was trying to see who Jesus was, and was unable because of the crowd, for he was small in stature. So he ran on ahead and climbed up into a sycamore tree in order to see Him, for He was about to pass through that way. When Jesus came to the place, He looked up and said to him, "Zaccheus, hurry and come down, for today I must stay at your house.'' And he hurried and came down and received Him gladly. When they saw it, they all began to grumble, saying, "He has gone to be the guest of a man who is a sinner.'' Zaccheus stopped and said to the Lord, "Behold, Lord, half of my possessions I will give to the poor, and if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I will give back four times as much.'' And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham. "For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.''

Revelation 3:19 "Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent”

[Caneman]

Originally Posted by ampaterry

The decision of who is a Christian is up to Jesus Christ, not to us. Thankfully, because if everyone somehow had the ability to toss someone else out of heaven, NO ONE would be there.

Terry, if someone comes to your church and asks you how they can go to heaven do you tell them "I am not certain, it is really up to Jesus Christ, so just go and ask Him about it"... you would never tell them that! You would explain the good news of the Gospel in Jesus Christ and go from there to lead them to starting their relationship with Jesus Christ... there are a handful of basic beliefs that separates true Christianity from other Christian-like religions...

[Python]

[QUOTE=ampaterry;855852]Python, that earlier question was out of line.
You can state a point without posting such inflammatory statements as that one, and I would appreciate it if you would do so. Since there are MULTIPLE ways to interpret scripture, it would be better to ask how someone interprets this or that passage without asking them if they are saying Jesus is not speaking the truth.

I was in charge of a lab during part of my career in Engineering. It is completely true to say that NO product to be tested got into that lab except through me. That does not mean that every one was hand carried by me into the lab, nor that I did the testing personally. It meant that they only got in with my APPROVAL.
When Christ says that no man reaches the Father except by Him, he could have meant the exact same thing; no one gets in without his APPROVAL.

And your insistance on deciding whether or not Bob or anyone else is a Christian is also out of line. -

IMO it was a simple question, nothing inflammatory unless you're thin skinned. A simple yes or no answer would be sufficient. Scripture interprets scripture. I don't look for "multiple" ways to spin the scripture to please myself or others. Christ was clear in His interpretation that to be "born again" is to be born of the spirit, and "no man comes to the Father except by me". One has accepted Christ as their Lord & Savior or they haven't, if their "undecided" then it's clear that they haven't. If one is "born again" they belong to Christ and their salvation is secure "IN" Christ, or "BY" Christ, take your pick. Jesus made a certified statement of truth about being "born' again" and "No man comes to the Father except BY Me", nothing is left open to interpretation or approval. God says what He means and mans what He says, I don't attempt to assume in my wisdom that God "could have meant" something other than He said. Such wisdom is the wisdom of a fool, for scripture clearly says that "man's wisdom is foolishness to God". I'm not insisting on or attempting to decide that Bob or anyone else is a Christian, Bob said that he "may not be a Christian" and simply left it open to question.

[RunningOnMT]

Wow...this topic just doesn't die. I will repeat the definition I used previously. With regard to Christianity, a cult is any group that professes belief in Jesus Christ but teaches doctrine not taught by Christ or contained in scriptures. Those whose doctrine is based on writings not contained in the Bible.

"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to different gospel—which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!” (Gal. 1:6–9)

It is not the individual members of a church I have a problem with but the church itself and clergy which preaches these other gospels which lead people to eternal damnation.

The Bible Does say "Judge not, lest ye be judged" but it also teaches discernment. It is for God only to judge a mans heart but the prophets and apostles of old were steadfast in denouncing the lies and heresies of false religion. Salvation is more than simply calling oneself a Christian. One must follow the true Christ, not one with attributes invented by man.

There's a delicate balance between loving evangelism and obnoxious intrusion but I feel reaching the lost is what followers of Christ are called to do. If you see someone about to jump off a bridge would you run to catch them or say "That is their choice to make and I've no right to intrude?" If you fail to try to reach someone for fear of intruding into their privacy or of what someone will think of you, have you really loved your neighbor as yourself? If someone claims to believe the Gospel of Christ, then they believe in a place of eternal torment. Would it not be better to tell them the truth despite what others thought, than to let them follow a false Christ into hell?

[Bobitis]

Originally Posted by Python

[IMO it was a simple question, nothing inflammatory unless you're thin skinned. A simple yes or no answer would be sufficient. Scripture interprets scripture.

Actually, it's not as simple as yes or no. But for the sake of arguement, let's say no.

What does that have to do with the original question? Are you insinuating that my opinions are invalid because I'm not a Christian? What does 'scripture interprets scripture' mean? Man interprets scripture. Repeatedly when it comes to the Bible. There are many words/phrases in the original text that cannot be translated. How does that work? Did someone just make it up? Cuz it sounded good?

It obviousley sounds good to you, but I question it. In your mind, I'mma go ta hell because my interpretation doesn't agree with yours.

That's the problem. That's why Terry created this thread. He and I could be brothers of different mothers. He's the forum Pastor, and I'm a lowly peon in many peoples minds. I am however, a Humble peon. It makes a huge difference. I'm also a peace maker. I try to anyway. Sometimes it just don't work. How can two people, from different ends of the spectrum, share so many values? Wierd eh?

So how does this tie into the original post? Humility. I'm no better than anyone else here. Your beliefs do not trump mine. If you think they do, you need a pc of pie.

As always, this is just my opinion. Take what you like and leave the rest.

[Caneman]

Originally Posted by Bobitis

Actually, it's not as simple as yes or no. But for the sake of arguement, let's say no.

What does that have to do with the original question? Are you insinuating that my opinions are invalid because I'm not a Christian? What does 'scripture interprets scripture' mean? Man interprets scripture. Repeatedly when it comes to the Bible. There are many words/phrases in the original text that cannot be translated. How does that work? Did someone just make it up? Cuz it sounded good?

It obviousley sounds good to you, but I question it. In your mind, I'mma go ta hell because my interpretation doesn't agree with yours.

That's the problem. That's why Terry created this thread. He and I could be brothers of different mothers. He's the forum Pastor, and I'm a lowly peon in many peoples minds. I am however, a Humble peon. It makes a huge difference. I'm also a peace maker. I try to anyway. Sometimes it just don't work. How can two people, from different ends of the spectrum, share so many values? Wierd eh?

So how does this tie into the original post? Humility. I'm no better than anyone else here. Your beliefs do not trump mine. If you think they do, you need a pc of pie.

As always, this is just my opinion. Take what you like and leave the rest.

I am glad you brought this up, because I wanted to respond to Terry as well... from what you are saying here, and what I can gather from Terry's posts, is that Christianity all comes down to interpretation, and your interpretation is just as valid as mine, etc... so if you and Terry are correct there really is no truth at all, because the truth is relative to one's own private interpretation... so nobody can really say that anyone else believes in a cult, nobody can say that they are really a Christian, and Christianity as a whole could be a cult, and that none of the Bible can be true because it all comes down to interpretation......

imo, seems to come down to two options here:

1) there is no truth, because Christianity and the Bible can be interpreted differently, believe as you wish because your opinion is as valid as mine

or

2) Biblical Christianity claims to be the truth, Jesus says He is the Truth, and the Bible is the inspired Word of God is true...

[Python]

Originally Posted by Bobitis

Actually, it's not as simple as yes or no. But for the sake of arguement, let's say no.

What does that have to do with the original question? Are you insinuating that my opinions are invalid because I'm not a Christian? What does 'scripture interprets scripture' mean? Man interprets scripture. Repeatedly when it comes to the Bible. There are many words/phrases in the original text that cannot be translated. How does that work? Did someone just make it up? Cuz it sounded good?

It obviousley sounds good to you, but I question it. In your mind, I'mma go ta hell because my interpretation doesn't agree with yours.

That's the problem. That's why Terry created this thread. He and I could be brothers of different mothers. He's the forum Pastor, and I'm a lowly peon in many peoples minds. I am however, a Humble peon. It makes a huge difference. I'm also a peace maker. I try to anyway. Sometimes it just don't work. How can two people, from different ends of the spectrum, share so many values? Wierd eh?

So how does this tie into the original post? Humility. I'm no better than anyone else here. Your beliefs do not trump mine. If you think they do, you need a pc of pie.

As always, this is just my opinion. Take what you like and leave the rest.

What it has to do with is jack saying that you will be in heaven. First you said that you "may not be a Christian", now you you say "for the sake of argument, No, your not a Christian. No argument from me with you, jack, or Terry, if you're not a Christian then you will not be in heaven. If your opinions are in relation to the Gospel and your opinions contradict the Gospel, then yes, your opinion is "invalid". Scripture interprets scripture means to read 20 verses before and 20 verses after for an understanding. Man doesn't interpret scripture, it's only through Bible study and the guidance of God's Holy Spirit that one is qualified to discern or understand scripture. Satan is the author of confusion, something to think about for anyone confused. I'm interested to know exactly what words and phrases you claim are in the "original text" that cannot be translated, and obviously cause you doubt. What do you claim is "made up to sound good" and not of original text that you question?

If you're going to hell it has nothing to do with whats in my mind, it has everything to do with truth of scripture, Gods word. If there's a problem it's between you and God, because God doesn't say, Bob lets make a deal, God says, Bob, this is the deal. Lowly peon, humble peon, peacemaker, makes no difference, we're all Bozo's on the same bus. My belief doesn't trump your belief, God's word trumps your belief, or, unbelief. Peace.

[Bobitis]

Originally Posted by Caneman

I am glad you brought this up, because I wanted to respond to Terry as well... from what you are saying here, and what I can gather from Terry's posts, is that Christianity all comes down to interpretation, and your interpretation is just as valid as mine, etc... so if you and Terry are correct there really is no truth at all, because the truth is relative to one's own private interpretation... so nobody can really say that anyone else believes in a cult, nobody can say that they are really a Christian, and Christianity as a whole could be a cult, and that none of the Bible can be true because it all comes down to interpretation......

imo, seems to come down to two options here:

1) there is no truth, because Christianity and the Bible can be interpreted differently, believe as you wish because your opinion is as valid as mine

or

2) Biblical Christianity claims to be the truth, Jesus says He is the Truth, and the Bible is the inspired Word of God is true...

Good grief.

Christianity is what it is. I never said there was no truth in what Jesus preached.
How can I make it any clearer?

The Bible has been re-written many times. It has been re-written by man. Man is sinfull. Yes, your interpretation of 'scripture' may differ from mine. In no way does that make your interpretion better or more accurate than mine. It's YOUR opinion.
The 'word' of God has been basterdized for centuries. By man after man.

Ya don't get it. Hellfire and damnation to anyone that disagrees with you.

So be it. You've passed judgement on my fate, so I'll go along my way.

What is a Christian cult?

[Bobitis]

Originally Posted by Python

If you're going to hell it has nothing to do with whats in my mind, it has everything to do with truth of scripture, Gods word. If there's a problem it's between you and God, because God doesn't say, Bob lets make a deal, God says, Bob, this is the deal. Lowly peon, humble peon, peacemaker, makes no difference, we're all Bozo's on the same bus. My belief doesn't trump your belief, God's word trumps your belief, or, unbelief. Peace.

I'm not worried about going to hell, and it IS about what's in your mind.
You tell me it's about me and God, then interject YOUR interpretation of the word. I happen to feel that God/Jesus is on my side in this battle.

Sorry if ya can't accept that, cuz I can. It'll get sorted out later.

[Caneman]

Originally Posted by Bobitis

Good grief.

Christianity is what it is. I never said there was no truth in what Jesus preached.
How can I make it any clearer?

The Bible has been re-written many times. It has been re-written by man. Man is sinfull. Yes, your interpretation of 'scripture' may differ from mine. In no way does that make your interpretion better or more accurate than mine. It's YOUR opinion.
The 'word' of God has been basterdized for centuries. By man after man.

Ya don't get it. Hellfire and damnation to anyone that disagrees with you.

So be it. You've passed judgement on my fate, so I'll go along my way.

What is a Christian cult?

Bob, you are over reacting, i never said or implied those negative comments you are making... what i hear you saying is that the Bible really comes down to how you interpret it... this is the same thing as saying there really is no biblical truth because your interpretation is just as valid as mine... if that is the case, what you are really saying is that there is no truth in Christianity... either the Christianity as written in Scripture is true, or it is relative to your own personal interpretation, it can't be both at the same time...

i am not disrespecting your views, just trying to make sense of them...

[reynolds357]

Originally Posted by Bobitis

Good grief.

Christianity is what it is. I never said there was no truth in what Jesus preached.
How can I make it any clearer?

The Bible has been re-written many times. It has been re-written by man. Man is sinfull. Yes, your interpretation of 'scripture' may differ from mine. In no way does that make your interpretion better or more accurate than mine. It's YOUR opinion.
The 'word' of God has been basterdized for centuries. By man after man.

Ya don't get it. Hellfire and damnation to anyone that disagrees with you.

So be it. You've passed judgement on my fate, so I'll go along my way.

What is a Christian cult?

You might want to study a little closer the process by how we got our Bible. It has not been "re-written." The more recent discoveries of ancient manuscripts is confirming that fact.

[ampaterry]

Now I am accused of saying there is no truth at all.

Good GRIEF!

Let me try this ONE MORE TIME!!!

John 3:16 (KJV);
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

That is a salvation issue.

How you are baptized is not.
What you drink for communion, or if you even take communion, is not.
How you interpret every word of this passage is not:
Mark 16:15-18 (KJV); And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


MOST of the details are not.

It is these NON SALVATION ISSUE details that are up to interpretation by so many.

The trouble is, some people simply cannot separate the salvation issues from the denominational issues, and somehow come to the conclusion that if you do not interpret every single nuance of every passage in the Bible exactly as they do, you are NOT A CHRISTIAN, and that is wrong.

We had a Mormon member here that had been here for YEARS, that was driven from this board by continued attacks upon his denomination.
I have known MANY mormons, and have some in my family, and I guarantee you, they are absolutely believers in and have faith and trust in Jesus Christ, and followers of him.
Yes indeed, their denomination has some practices that we consider oddities, but they are NOT SALVATION ISSUES, and they are NOT A CULT in the general meaning assigned to that word.

If this thread continues in the current heated vane, I will close it.
Gentlemen, this is for DISCUSSION, not for CONVERSION.

[ampaterry]

Originally Posted by Caneman

Terry, if someone comes to your church and asks you how they can go to heaven do you tell them "I am not certain, it is really up to Jesus Christ, so just go and ask Him about it"... you would never tell them that! You would explain the good news of the Gospel in Jesus Christ and go from there to lead them to starting their relationship with Jesus Christ... there are a handful of basic beliefs that separates true Christianity from other Christian-like religions...

Yes.

I like the Romans Road road, actually.
Right there, in one book, all the bases are covered.

But if someone comes to my church and identifies themself as a Christian, I do not tell them they are in a cult if they do not believe exactly as I do.

A relationship with Jesus Christ, faith in him, and attempting to follow his teachings, are requirements to be saved.
How you are baptized, when, where, and what words are spoken at the time are NOT. Nor are the dozens of other issues that have been thrown in the face of Christians in this group that happened to be members of a denomination that most here obviously know nothing about.

[jack404]

this threads been a eye opener for me as well , the fact that folks condemn others on so little

no wonder Christianity is in so much strife

ever read the bit about a house divided cannot stand ?? and that doing so or helping to create division is the works of the devil ?

(and i'll probably regret saying that when its taken apart and reassembled into something else i have not said )

the Christian forbearance i been seeing makes me like my Atheist friends a whole lot more and appreciate them just that bit extra , its no wonder they make fun of Believers if this is what they see

[rosierita]

the scripture that keeps coming to my thoughts as i read this is...

Luke 10

New International Version (NIV)
21 At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.

22 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”

23 Then he turned to his disciples and said privately, “Blessed are the eyes that see what you see. 24 For I tell you that many prophets and kings wanted to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.”

we cannot understand anything w/out God. God works through His Holy Spirit in giving us understanding & revelation.

God works through His Holy Spirit in prompting us w/ words to say, actions to take, what to pray for, etc.

God knows what each person needs, what each person needs to hear, see, touch, experience to grow closer to Him... & He is CONSTANTLY working in & through us, whether we recognize it or not.

we can choose to be, do, say, etc what God prompts in us OR we can choose to ignore God.

some ignore God long enough that they decide their eternal destination by putting off the decision til "tomorrow". that's 1 of satan's biggest lies! satan lulls a lot of people into thinking "i'll decide tomorrow".

the more that satan has reign in 1's life, the more they are desensitized to satan's ploy. this can be in big things, sins that even ray charles can see or in little things we overlook or never even notice.

not everything we decide is God's will for us. not everything that happens to us is God's will for us. BUT God can & will work in every situation to bring about what He designed for each of us, IF we'll only let Him.

as far as interpretations of scripture go.. consider this.. how many times have you read 1 particular scripture, being in different circumstances each time & every time, that same scripture has spoken to you about each particular circumstance... have you ever experienced that? i have.

something i try to do is just ask God for His perspective on everything i face... you'd be amazed at how differently you'll see things when you ask Him to help you to see people the way He sees them... God loves to reveal this to you. He loves opportunities to reveal Himself to you!

& the traits of His character are what you'll see every time. love, faithfulness, mercy, compassion, joy, peace, etc.

[ampaterry]

Amen, Jack.

God gives us free will, and GREAT latitude in how we worship Him.

Music - no music - rock music - organ music - he does NOT CARE, only that we DO praise him.

Pray while standing, sitting or kneeling - he does NOT CARE; only that we DO pray.

He wants us, the ones that have accepted Jesus Christ, to be comfortable in our worship.
He wants us to be at ease with Him.
We are his friends.
We are brothers and sisters to Jesus Christ.
We are children of God through adoption.

And we act like human children, fighting amongst ourselves.

[rosierita]

Originally Posted by jack404

this threads been a eye opener for me as well , the fact that folks condemn others on so little

no wonder Christianity is in so much strife

ever read the bit about a house divided cannot stand ?? and that doing so or helping to create division is the works of the devil ?

(and i'll probably regret saying that when its taken apart and reassembled into something else i have not said )

the Christian forbearance i been seeing makes me like my Atheist friends a whole lot more and appreciate them just that bit extra , its no wonder they make fun of Believers if this is what they see

satan has his paw prints all over this jack. this & many, many other things.

lately, the more i'm tempted, the more i try to shift my focus to God & to pray, asking Him to give me His perspective.

i will not get into particulars, but i will say this...

i have seen it w/ my own eyes, the times i have been most tempted to "lose it" w/ 1 particular situation i've faced... the times that's happened & i've prayed & asked God to help me, usually right around that very next corner, He's providing me an opportunity to reflect HIM in something i say or do. that's not to benefit me, its to benefit the person God brings across my path at the time.

[ampaterry]

The wisdom that God has placed in the scripture is absolutely overwhelming.
Just as you said, rosierita, I will find a great message for a sermon on a passage, and later will find ANOTHER great message in the same passage!
There is MORE than enough for a LIFETIME of preaching without ever duplicating.

God is great!