What is a cult?

[Caneman]

Originally Posted by ampaterry

It is these NON SALVATION ISSUE details that are up to interpretation by so many.

The trouble is, some people simply cannot separate the salvation issues from the denominational issues, and somehow come to the conclusion that if you do not interpret every single nuance of every passage in the Bible exactly as they do, you are NOT A CHRISTIAN, and that is wrong.

I like the way you refer to these as 'salvation issues', so I think we can agree that there is truth in the Bible about interpreting scripure that would identify one as a Christian and being saved... there are these salvation issues that are not up to one's own interpretation, and all the rest is really trivial and interpret as you wish...

I have known MANY mormons, and have some in my family, and I guarantee you, they are absolutely believers in and have faith and trust in Jesus Christ, and followers of him.
Yes indeed, their denomination has some practices that we consider oddities, but they are NOT SALVATION ISSUES, and they are NOT A CULT in the general meaning assigned to that word.

I think someone said it earlier that in many Christian like religions there are some people who genuinely have put their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ of the bible and are indeed saved, even though their religion does not believe in the 'salvation issues' that are not open to interpretation.

[ampaterry]

1 Corinthians 1:1-18 (KJV);
Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, Unto the church of God which is at Corinth,

to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ; That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge; Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel:

not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

What do we see here?

Paul addresses CHRISTIANS, absolutely no doubt about it.

Paul speaks against their DIVISIONS, absolutely no doubt about it. God is not the author of divisions.

He says he came to Preach the gospel, and not to baptize.

What does this boil down to?

Do not confuse all facets of the Christian walk with Salvation; they are two separate issues.

[rosierita]

Originally Posted by ampaterry

The wisdom that God has placed in the scripture is absolutely overwhelming.
Just as you said, rosierita, I will find a great message for a sermon on a passage, and later will find ANOTHER great message in the same passage!
There is MORE than enough for a LIFETIME of preaching without ever duplicating.

God is great!

amen to that!

back at the topic at hand... my opinions on cults have changed.

i used to be, dare i say... obsessed on religion & false religions. i used to do a lot of reading on it. i used to love to debate it, talk about it, have "bible studies" on it, etc.

nowadays i KISS ~ keep it simple stupid. (referring to myself, of course)

i'm more concerned w/ the individual than i am an organization bc real change starts in a person's heart & today, i try to look for opportunities to make a difference there.

i cannot worry about what it is you are doing bc i have no control in what you are doing. ("control" is a satanic tactic, in my opinion & its a false assurance aka illusion) i can only control what i'm doing, what i'm reflecting in my life.

so, i try to keep my eyes on God, i try to keep my eyes open to the opportunities He gives me each day & that's where i try to make a difference. as long as my focus is HIM & not me, that's when He uses me.

even in that very little thing, satan is hard at work to try to take me off that course

but i recognize that satan has 2 game plans... 1) keep you from coming to salvation or 2) to keep you from being an effective witness once you have

it distresses me greatly to think of all the opportunities i have missed, overlooked or ruined because i allowed my pride, rebellion, selfishness, resentment, etc to overrule God's agenda.

how many individuals do we REALLY see? how many times have i overlooked a person's cry for help? or search for answers? when, if i had just stopped & listened... quieted myself before God in that moment... quieted myself & separated myself from my pride & preconceived notions... just for that moment, to truly listen...

what i decide doesnt determine someone else's salvation, BUT what if God wanted to use me in that person's life by something i say or do? ya know?

we cannot possibly know all of the ways God will or can use us. (OR how many opportunities that satan has already snatched from us.)

this "fighting"... its satanic in nature. if we're fighting amongst ourselves, we're not being effective witnesses.

speaking of "fighting", i have seen SIMPLE misunderstandings turn into fights or potential fights. very simple misunderstandings... 1 particular instance that comes to mind was between me & my prayer partner a few yrs ago. i dont even know what ALMOST prompted the argument any more... my prayer partner misunderstood something i said in an email... it was going to develop into a full blown argument based on her response... i got distracted long enough to get "quiet" & as soon as i did, God revealed satan's work in that instance.

i told her what God revealed in my response, God's Holy Spirit witnessed to it, argument avoided.

[ampaterry]

Gold star on your tooth-brush chart, rosierita!!

Seriously, CONGRATULATIONS! You have the approach we should ALL be striving for; reach out to HELP people, reach out to lead the lost to Salvation, and stop worrying about non-salvation issues.

This is, I am sure, the reason God had me open a non-denominational church.
When anyone asks me about baptism, divorce, forbidden foods, communion, etc., I am completely free to read them exactly what scripture says. I can then go into depth, if needed, concerning the original languages and their possible interpretations. I then tell them how what makes sense to me concerning it, and how they handle it is between them and God!

NO board to contact, NO presbytery to follow, NO Bishop to consult.

And no denominational battles, either.

[Caneman]

Originally Posted by Caneman

I like the way you refer to these as 'salvation issues', so I think we can agree that there is truth in the Bible about interpreting scripure that would identify one as a Christian and being saved... there are these salvation issues that are not up to one's own interpretation, and all the rest is really trivial and interpret as you wish...



I think someone said it earlier that in many Christian like religions there are some people who genuinely have put their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ of the bible and are indeed saved, even though their religion does not believe in the 'salvation issues' that are not open to interpretation.

Terry, I can't believe you edited my post and gave me an infraction and you interpreted it as a personal attack...

just so other posters know the rules now, the mods have made a decision that you can't make a post where you state your opinion on here that another religion is not a Christian religion no matter how your post is presented...

mods, if i am wrong then i know you will edit or clarify my post...

[Caneman]

Originally Posted by Caneman

Terry, I can't believe you edited my post and gave me an infraction and you interpreted it as a personal attack...

just so other posters know the rules now, the mods have made a decision that you can't make a post where you state your opinion on here that another religion is not a Christian religion no matter how your post is presented...

mods, if i am wrong then i know you will edit or clarify my post...

Terry, why did I get an infraction for this post, with the next infraction resulting in me getting removed from the forum... i don't understand? what am i doing wrong to violate the rules?

[ampaterry]

You attacked a Christian denomination, one that believes the Bible, one that has faith in Jesus Christ, and claimed they were not Christian.

Now you identify them as "another religion".
We are not talking about Islam, Hindu, Shinto or Wiccans here; we are talking about a Christian denomination, and one that I know a LOT about through many years of study.

Their missionaries, by the way, were praying for me when I was an atheist.
When I got saved, I joined a Baptist church because I could not accept some of this denominations beliefs.
Their missionaries were HAPPY for me because I was SAVED.
They did not agree with the Baptist doctrin, but they understood SALVATION.
That is in great contrast with you, who are convinced they are not even Christian.

They believe in, have faith in, print and distribute copies of the BIBLE.
They have faith in Jesus Christ, to the extent that they named their denomination after Him.
They are a Christian denomination, and anyone that actually studies them knows that to be true.

No further attack on them, or any other denomination, will be tolerated.

Phrasing it in the form you did, claiming you were discussing it, does nothing to lessen the attack upon them.

Would it be acceptible if I said that I wanted to discuss, as my personal opinion, that you were a pedophile? Would the DISCUSS and OPINION part make that OK as a topic?

We don't play word games like that here.
Other members will not be attacked, even as a discussion or an opinion.

[ampaterry]

Originally Posted by Caneman

Terry, why did I get an infraction for this post, with the next infraction resulting in me getting removed from the forum... i don't understand? what am i doing wrong to violate the rules?

"Personal attacks, threats or ANY other type of harassment will not be tolerated anywhere on this site"

[RunningOnMT]

Terry, OK, you pretty much identified one group. May I post a compare and contrast list of the tenets of that faith so that people may decide for themselves?

[Caneman]

Originally Posted by ampaterry

You attacked a Christian denomination, one that believes the Bible, one that has faith in Jesus Christ, and claimed they were not Christian.

Now you identify them as "another religion".
We are not talking about Islam, Hindu, Shinto or Wiccans here; we are talking about a Christian denomination, and one that I know a LOT about through many years of study.

Their missionaries, by the way, were praying for me when I was an atheist.
When I got saved, I joined a Baptist church because I could not accept some of this denominations beliefs.
Their missionaries were HAPPY for me because I was SAVED.
They did not agree with the Baptist doctrin, but they understood SALVATION.
That is in great contrast with you, who are convinced they are not even Christian.

They believe in, have faith in, print and distribute copies of the BIBLE.
They have faith in Jesus Christ, to the extent that they named their denomination after Him.
They are a Christian denomination, and anyone that actually studies them knows that to be true.

No further attack on them, or any other denomination, will be tolerated.

Phrasing it in the form you did, claiming you were discussing it, does nothing to lessen the attack upon them.

Would it be acceptible if I said that I wanted to discuss, as my personal opinion, that you were a pedophile? Would the DISCUSS and OPINION part make that OK as a topic?

We don't play word games like that here.
Other members will not be attacked, even as a discussion or an opinion.

Terry, will I or anyone else ever be able to discuss what Mormonism believes about Jesus Christ so that it is acceptable to you and to the rules of this forum?

[Caneman]

Originally Posted by ampaterry

"Personal attacks, threats or ANY other type of harassment will not be tolerated anywhere on this site"

did not mean to disprespect you or attack you if that is how you received it, i just thought it was only fair that other posters know how you feel about the rules so they don't get an infraction like it did...

[ampaterry]

Originally Posted by RunningOnMT

Terry, OK, you pretty much identified one group. May I post a compare and contrast list of the tenets of that faith so that people may decide for themselves?

I do not see any way that posting such a list that is targeting a specific denomination would be in any way beneficial. It would, nowever, serve to stir up even more animosity.

Let us get OFF of this, guys -
The intent of the thread was NOT to go through the Christian denominations and try to identify which were and which were not acceptable. The intent was to UNIFY rather than DIVIDE the various denominations.

[RunningOnMT]

Ok

[Caneman]

Terry, with all due respect I just can't participate in this religious subforum any more, I am sure you and many others won't lose any sleep over that What you are implying is that you as the mod get to decide what is right and wrong, and what is truth and what isn't, so i don't see any room to have an honest, open, and civilized discussion on some topics... I get your point, you are more concerned about uniting people than you are dividing, and that certainly is an honorable intent... I don't think anyone sets out to create divisions, but the Lord Jesus had this to say which I think is applicable to this thread:

Matthew 10 32 “Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven. 34 Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daugher-in-law against her mother-in-law, 36 and a man's enemies will be the members of his household."

[ampaterry]

See my post 77 above, Caneman

[ampaterry]

Between my post 77 quote and Caneman's post 89 quote, we should see:

From my post 77, We should see that we are not to be divisive, identifying ourselves with THIS faction or THAT faction to the point that we are fighting each other. We are the Body of Christ, and should stand unified, regardless of the name over the door of my church, your church, ot her church.

From Caneman's post, we should see that Christ came to save the lost. His purpose was to turn men away from the world and toward himself. He understands, and says, that his entry into the world will not bring peace, because He can make no peace with any group that denies Him (Jesus). He understands that this can cause schisms in even the family unit itself. I have seen this. The child is led to the Lord, and starts witnessing to mom and dad, who are Budhists. Battles ensue.

But the battles Christ came to start are NOT the battles between different groups of Christians as Paul wrote about.

Do I, as mod, get to decide what is right and wrong?
In scripture interpretation, absolutely not.
As to what is right and what is wrong with the various denominations, absolutely not.

But when some members are attacking the church of another member, claiming it is a cult and not a Christian group, I as a mod absolutely will decide that is wrong, and correct it.

[ampaterry]

Someone here earlier mentioned the Branch Davidians as a cult.

I think we are safe discussing this one, because the FBA and ATF killed most of them, and I highly doubt any are on this forum to get offended.

Understand that the Branch Davidians were a well respected group in several circles. Some 7th Day Adventist churches sent groups to Waco to study under David Koresh, in fact.
Understand also that the charges brought against them of child abuse, etc., were investigated and there was NO MERIT found in any of them whatsoever.

We watched every bit of news coverage of this horrid specticle.
We recorded the complete Senate hearings on this group, HOURS and HOURS of it, back in the VHS tape days, and watched every second of it.

We ordered copies of the FLIR footage shot during the final conflageration.

My wife, wanting to know what was REALLY the truth about them, called and talked to one of the few survivors.

I will not even scratch the surface here in this post about the Davidians, but to the topic: Were they a Christian denomination?
I have no doubt that they were.
Were they a cult?
My conclusion is that they were. They were so COMPLETELY dedicated to their leader, David Koresh, that they obeyed him unquestioningly in all matters.

Was this a good justification to give the death penalty to all members, men women and children?
It was not.

Everyone remembers the government agents crying about how the evil Davidians were firing on them with .50 cal weapons as they hid behind their vehicles and repeatedly straffed the 'compound' with gunfire.
If you watched closely, you would have seen something remarkeable.
Not a SINGLE bullet hole in ANY of the vehicles they were hiding behind.
Not one piece of broken glass from any of that deadly gunfire they claimed they were getting.
Boy, weren't those agents LUCKY that NO ONE in that compound firing that MULTITUDE of weapons could even hit a CAR at that range?

Personal opinion?
As was the case with Randy Weaver, the Fed wants us, the sheeple, to stay in line. Don't set out to be separate, don't try to be prepared.

And it also served to cause a certain percentage of the population to look at US, the firearm owners, as whacko's, kooks, religous nut-cases.

[reynolds357]

Originally Posted by ampaterry

Someone here earlier mentioned the Branch Davidians as a cult.

I think we are safe discussing this one, because the FBA and ATF killed most of them, and I highly doubt any are on this forum to get offended.

Understand that the Branch Davidians were a well respected group in several circles. Some 7th Day Adventist churches sent groups to Waco to study under David Koresh, in fact.
Understand also that the charges brought against them of child abuse, etc., were investigated and there was NO MERIT found in any of them whatsoever.

We watched every bit of news coverage of this horrid specticle.
We recorded the complete Senate hearings on this group, HOURS and HOURS of it, back in the VHS tape days, and watched every second of it.

We ordered copies of the FLIR footage shot during the final conflageration.

My wife, wanting to know what was REALLY the truth about them, called and talked to one of the few survivors.

I will not even scratch the surface here in this post about the Davidians, but to the topic: Were they a Christian denomination?
I have no doubt that they were.
Were they a cult?
My conclusion is that they were. They were so COMPLETELY dedicated to their leader, David Koresh, that they obeyed him unquestioningly in all matters.

Was this a good justification to give the death penalty to all members, men women and children?
It was not.

Everyone remembers the government agents crying about how the evil Davidians were firing on them with .50 cal weapons as they hid behind their vehicles and repeatedly straffed the 'compound' with gunfire.
If you watched closely, you would have seen something remarkeable.
Not a SINGLE bullet hole in ANY of the vehicles they were hiding behind.
Not one piece of broken glass from any of that deadly gunfire they claimed they were getting.
Boy, weren't those agents LUCKY that NO ONE in that compound firing that MULTITUDE of weapons could even hit a CAR at that range?

Personal opinion?
As was the case with Randy Weaver, the Fed wants us, the sheeple, to stay in line. Don't set out to be separate, don't try to be prepared.

And it also served to cause a certain percentage of the population to look at US, the firearm owners, as whacko's, kooks, religous nut-cases.

To any honest theologian, the following would prove they were not Christian:
Salvation

To the Branch Davidians "salvation" entails knowing and understanding the Seven Seals, as Koresh "Prophesied" and wrote:

"Your only Savior is My Truth. My Truth is the 'Seven Seals'" (letter, 10 April 1993).

"The Seven Seals are the last prophecy to a lost world...You have a chance to learn my Salvation" (letter, 11 April 1993, p. 2).

"...if we disregard the truth of the first seal we really disregard Christ, who opened it and in so doing we disregard God who gave it. This indifference most surely will place one's Salvation in jeopardy" (Seven Seals Manuscript, p. 9).





If they had not Shot at the ATF, they would all be alive. You shoot at L.E. executing a search warrant, I have no sympathy for you when you get killed. You have talked to some of the Davidians. That is wonderful, I have met some of the Federal agents involved in the operation leading up to the S.W. The Davidians were a bunch of criminals involved in the trade of explosive devices and illegal parts for use in building fully automatic weapons.

[ampaterry]

Consider this:

The front door, the one that Koresh opened to the warent server, was steel.
Koresh was wounded during that initial contact.
The government says the davidians shot OUT at THEM.
The Davidians said the people outside shot IN, and they did not even return fire.
Both sides agree the front door was slammed shut during the gunfire.

Evidence:
I have heard the 911 tape showing the people in that compound called for help, because they were being attacked.

I watched the senate hearings where they requested that that front door, the steel one, be examined to determine if the bullet holes came through it from the outside or from the inside.

The government could not produce the door, speculating that it had been destroyed in the fire.
Yeah, a steel door.

And no chance to look for it, because the entire area had been thoroughly cleaned of ALL wreckage from the buildings WELL before the hearings started.

David Koresh, DAILY, jogged outside the Branch Davidian property.
IF the fed actually thought he had excess weapons there, why did they wait until he was in there where he could use them to arrest him?
I think I would have grabbed him ANY DAY in his jogging suit, arrest him, then hit the property with a search warrent.

No honest theologian would proclaim a group to NOT be Christian based on parts of three sentences taken out of context from letters written by their leader.

[ampaterry]

Another curious thing.

There were lots of TV cameras trained on the front door of the complex.
There were NONE on the rear doors of the complex.

EVERY SINGLE PERSON that escaped the blaze came out the front, on TV.
Why did no one escape out the rear?
The FLIR footage plainly shows, during the fire, repeated gunfire from multiple points around the back of the complex, firing INTO the complex.

What happened?
Those that tried to escape were shot as they exited the flames.
The survivors were those lucky enough to escape where a TV camera was pointed, and such executions would be seen by the world.

[reynolds357]

Originally Posted by ampaterry

Consider this:

The front door, the one that Koresh opened to the warent server, was steel.
Koresh was wounded during that initial contact.
The government says the davidians shot OUT at THEM.
The Davidians said the people outside shot IN, and they did not even return fire.
Both sides agree the front door was slammed shut during the gunfire.

Evidence:
I have heard the 911 tape showing the people in that compound called for help, because they were being attacked.

I watched the senate hearings where they requested that that front door, the steel one, be examined to determine if the bullet holes came through it from the outside or from the inside.

The government could not produce the door, speculating that it had been destroyed in the fire.
Yeah, a steel door.

And no chance to look for it, because the entire area had been thoroughly cleaned of ALL wreckage from the buildings WELL before the hearings started.

David Koresh, DAILY, jogged outside the Branch Davidian property.
IF the fed actually thought he had excess weapons there, why did they wait until he was in there where he could use them to arrest him?
I think I would have grabbed him ANY DAY in his jogging suit, arrest him, then hit the property with a search warrent.

No honest theologian would proclaim a group to NOT be Christian based on parts of three sentences taken out of context from letters written by their leader.

When I worked for the Drug task force, I worked very closely with the ATF. They dont shoot at people for no reason. They are very professional. Nothing about the conspiracy theories surrounding Waco line up with what I have personally observed about the agency.
I am not an ATF hater. From what I have seen of them, they use common sense. The horror stories I read and hear about them are far from the reality I personally have observed while working with them on joint jurisdictional operations.

[ampaterry]

The things I have stated are not from conspiracy theorists, but are absolute fact.
There was tons of live coverage of this on all the news outlets.
NONE recorded a SINGLE shot coming from the Davidians.
ALL recorded TONS of fire going at the Davidians.

And the Senate hearings were verbatum, not edited by anyone.

Now how does this jibe with your experience?
the ATF is a big agency.
And this was MANY years ago, under Janet Reno.

I know several LEA's.
Absolutely great people; guys I would trust with my life.
But that does not change the fact that there are police who abuse their power, break the law, even kill people.
Good grief, back in the Womens Lib days, they first started pairing male and female officers on patroll. One of the first departments hit the national news when a male and a female officer got into a GUNFIGHT over who would drive the patroll car!

I have no doubt whatsoever that the vast majority of ATF and FBI are fine dedicated men.
I also have no idea exactly what directive they were given in the Waco affair.
And I have no doubt none of us will ever learn.

These same agencies - and some of the same AGENTS - took part in the Ruby Ridge fiasco, another place where government agents killed children and innocent people.

[jack404]

watching this , heck , i think i'd better keep shut on what i think and how i worship or i'll be branded something ..

By Their deeds shall ye know them ...

theres folks who keep striking at other Christian Faiths , and theres folks who reach out to them, offing their hand and help

i'll stick with the later as thats what the Good Book Teaches

it also teaches that if you dont agree with what they state , you brush off the soles of your feet and go on , dont stay and argue who's right and wrong , you move on

some folks are trench fighters stuck in that hole , taking pot shots at the "enemy"

some are patroller's , moving about seeing whats about

but another veiw , Bob raised a question about the indigenous folks here

their native belief with is a mix of ancestor and animalistic woreship all have a rule

NEVER, EVER ridicule the others beleifs or try to correct them , many trabal groups have similar beleifs that divert at various paths , but all go back to the flood ..

some talk of the rainbow serpent some speak of the great mullanginah ( a giant race who lived here years ago)

but what ever their difference these stone age folks have way more respect for each others beleifs than what i see here of 21st century folks

dont get bogged in trench warfare folks .. not on this

we're on the same side .. dont devide the house any more than it already has been

unify it if you really care ..

build connections , through faith and acts , reach out ..

but tearing it all apart ... ????? pushing folks away ????

because your correct and they are not ?? on YOUR SAY SO ????

------------------------------------------

Lord please forgive them for they know not what they do ..

and forgive me for getting so angry about it all

Teach them Lord, and teach me patience until we all learn

the true nature of who and what You are ..

Bless us all with wisdom and to be able to see the truth

All this i ask in Jesus's name.

Amen

-----------------------------------------

[ampaterry]

AMEN, JACK!!!

[JLA]

Rev I must say you have a bunch more patience than I do.. Good on ya.