Ownership of a 1943 Ithica 1911 - The Firearms Forum

GuyF828 · 01-23-2012, 06:00 PM

I'm thinking of buying a 1943 Ithica 1911 from an aquaintence of mine who has had it for a number of years. I don't know how he aquired it and he says there are no papers for it. Since it is a Government-issued gun, would it also have to had been registered to someone at some time? Or is it considered a war relic and requires no papes?

RJay · 01-23-2012, 07:30 PM

There is no reason it would ever have been registered to any one person unless they lived in a state that required such a thing.I'm not sure what a war relic is

GuyF828 · 01-23-2012, 07:49 PM

Thank you. I wasn't sure if a permit to purchase was needed.

RJay · 01-23-2012, 08:24 PM

No, no special permit is required, it falls into the same category as any other firearm. Howeve.,when you do purchase it, do your research, Military 1911 with complete markings are going up in value every day.

NGIB · 01-24-2012, 12:21 PM

Does your state require paperwork to purchase? IIRC, Michigan requires something...

ignats · 01-24-2012, 08:54 PM

It does fall into the Curio & Relics category per ATF and therefore can be transferred to a holder of a C&R FFL. Although originally United States Property is it considered obsolete even there are some units that still use pistols chambered in .45 ACP. The government simply has no interest in those pistols. They cost less than $50 back in the early 1940's and untold thousands were given away to our "friends" throughout the world many have made their way back here. Others were stolen from the government while others were sold through DCM. They are definitely collectible when found in original and/or correct condition. One problem, with Ithaca and Remington Rand pistols is they both bear FJA inspector's cartouche. I have seen quite a few mix masters i.e. Remington Rand frame with an Ithaca slide and the owner thinking it's an original Ithaca. The value drops off considerable when that happens. If you can get the serial number, I can check that for you. If you can post pictures, that would be even better.

TheGunClinger · 01-25-2012, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ignats

One problem, with Ithaca and Remington Rand pistols is they both bear FJA inspector's cartouche.

Why is the FJA a problem? Just curious. And yes, PICS!

ignats · 01-25-2012, 07:49 AM

FJA was the inspector for both Ithaca and Remington Rand. I have quite a few Remington Rand frames with Ithaca slides and vice versa that people think are all Ithaca due to the FJA inspector's stamp on the frame. However, they are referred to as mix masters due to the two different manufacturer's components...in short, they didn't leave the factory that way. You can identify the frame manufacturer by the serial number range and there are other ways. Colt's were, for the most part, during WWII inspected by GHD, Singers by JKC, by RCD. This was due to them being made in different Ordnance Zones (set up by the government). However Ithaca was made in Ithaca and Remington Rand in Syracuse both in New York and both were under in the inspector Col. Frank J. Atwood. The problem? The difference in value of $800 or more depending on condition for a miss match of parts vs. one that is complete and correct.
How did the parts get mixed? Possibly while still in the possession of the government, they didn't care about that or by some "well meaning" person who though he was restoring it to correct condition.

TheGunClinger · 01-25-2012, 04:37 PM

OK. I never thought of it that way as I always use the Ser# to tell who made what. Most of the "mixmasters" were frome being sent to an armory to be re-furbed. All makes were stripped and re furbished then re-assembled. Usually they didnt care what went went with what so you never knew what you ended up when they got re-issued. Back then they didnt worry much about collector value. Most times there were armory stamps on the frame. My 1943/44 Ithaca was refurbed at the Springfield armory and is stamped with an SA mark. Luckily for me, mine only has one grip that belonged to a Colt. All other parts were from Ithaca.

GuyF828 · 01-29-2012, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ignats

It does fall into the Curio & Relics category per ATF and therefore can be transferred to a holder of a C&R FFL. Although originally United States Property is it considered obsolete even there are some units that still use pistols chambered in .45 ACP. The government simply has no interest in those pistols. They cost less than $50 back in the early 1940's and untold thousands were given away to our "friends" throughout the world many have made their way back here. Others were stolen from the government while others were sold through DCM. They are definitely collectible when found in original and/or correct condition. One problem, with Ithaca and Remington Rand pistols is they both bear FJA inspector's cartouche. I have seen quite a few mix masters i.e. Remington Rand frame with an Ithaca slide and the owner thinking it's an original Ithaca. The value drops off considerable when that happens. If you can get the serial number, I can check that for you. If you can post pictures, that would be even better.

I'm new to the Forum and don't know how to post pictures yet but I will discribe it. Stamped on the right side is: UNITED STATES PROPERTY, M1911 A1 U.S. Army, No. 1448137. At the top of the trigger guard is stamped a number 4.
On the left side is stamped: ITHACA GUN CO. INC, ITHACA. N.Y. And a P is located below the clip eject button.
Ot top of the slide near the rear sight is also stamped a P.
I see no other markings.

TheGunClinger · 01-29-2012, 07:11 AM

Your ser# indicates that it is indeed an Ithaca frame and slide. It is a 1944. On June 15, 1944 it was shipped along with 1149 others, to the Ordnance property officer at the army air base at Topeka Kan. That info I got from Clawsons Collectors guide to .45 service pistols. (small book)

GuyF828 · 01-29-2012, 07:53 AM

Thanks for the info! I'll post a pic as soon as I can.

aandabooks · 01-29-2012, 06:54 PM

I have a student who's family has a WW2 Ithica that his grandfather brought home. It wasn't his personal carry gun and they don't have a huge attachment to it. What is one of these worth in about 90% + condition? They might be interested in selling it and I am always interested in a good deal.

TheGunClinger · 01-29-2012, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aandabooks

I have a student who's family has a WW2 Ithica that his grandfather brought home. It wasn't his personal carry gun and they don't have a huge attachment to it. What is one of these worth in about 90% + condition? They might be interested in selling it and I am always interested in a good deal.

You need to post up some good pics of both sides so the experts can see condition, markings and so forth.

GuyF828 · 01-30-2012, 05:18 PM

Let's see if this works. This is my 1911.

GuyF828 · 01-30-2012, 05:28 PM

How's this?

TheGunClinger · 01-30-2012, 09:33 PM

Not bad except for those after market grips. You can probably find some originals either on-line or maybe a gunshow.

ignats · 01-31-2012, 07:32 PM

Keyes plastic grips with reinforcing rings would be correct. They are pretty easy to find. Simpson Ltd has them usually for about $30 for a decent set. It would make a world of difference. I see pistols like that sell for $1200 to $1500 fairly often.

http://www.simpsonltd.com/

Silver72 · 01-31-2012, 09:42 PM

Ask them how much they want for the gun. It's their piece so let them put the first offer on the table.

GuyF828 · 02-01-2012, 09:25 PM

I talked him down to $600.00 and picked it up yesterday. I'll look into getting some original grips in the next few days.

01-23-2012, 06:00 PM	#1
GuyF828 Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: South-East Michigan Posts: 8	Ownership of a 1943 Ithica 1911 I'm thinking of buying a 1943 Ithica 1911 from an aquaintence of mine who has had it for a number of years. I don't know how he aquired it and he says there are no papers for it. Since it is a Government-issued gun, would it also have to had been registered to someone at some time? Or is it considered a war relic and requires no papes? -->

01-23-2012, 07:30 PM	#2
RJay Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 3,487	Re: Ownership of a 1943 Ithica 1911 There is no reason it would ever have been registered to any one person unless they lived in a state that required such a thing.I'm not sure what a war relic is __________________ RonJames

01-23-2012, 07:49 PM	#3
GuyF828 Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: South-East Michigan Posts: 8	Re: Ownership of a 1943 Ithica 1911 Thank you. I wasn't sure if a permit to purchase was needed.

01-23-2012, 08:24 PM	#4
RJay Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 3,487	Re: Ownership of a 1943 Ithica 1911 No, no special permit is required, it falls into the same category as any other firearm. Howeve.,when you do purchase it, do your research, Military 1911 with complete markings are going up in value every day. __________________ RonJames

01-24-2012, 12:21 PM	#5
NGIB V.I.P. Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Hinesville, GA/Sumter SC Contributor Posts: 152	Re: Ownership of a 1943 Ithica 1911 Does your state require paperwork to purchase? IIRC, Michigan requires something... __________________ Proud to be a veteran and still serving (USAF Retired, Army Civilian) I'm old, experienced, grumpy, and jaded - still vertical though...

01-24-2012, 08:54 PM	#6
ignats V.I.P. Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 93	Re: Ownership of a 1943 Ithica 1911 It does fall into the Curio & Relics category per ATF and therefore can be transferred to a holder of a C&R FFL. Although originally United States Property is it considered obsolete even there are some units that still use pistols chambered in .45 ACP. The government simply has no interest in those pistols. They cost less than $50 back in the early 1940's and untold thousands were given away to our "friends" throughout the world many have made their way back here. Others were stolen from the government while others were sold through DCM. They are definitely collectible when found in original and/or correct condition. One problem, with Ithaca and Remington Rand pistols is they both bear FJA inspector's cartouche. I have seen quite a few mix masters i.e. Remington Rand frame with an Ithaca slide and the owner thinking it's an original Ithaca. The value drops off considerable when that happens. If you can get the serial number, I can check that for you. If you can post pictures, that would be even better.

01-25-2012, 07:49 AM	#8
ignats V.I.P. Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 93	Re: Ownership of a 1943 Ithica 1911 FJA was the inspector for both Ithaca and Remington Rand. I have quite a few Remington Rand frames with Ithaca slides and vice versa that people think are all Ithaca due to the FJA inspector's stamp on the frame. However, they are referred to as mix masters due to the two different manufacturer's components...in short, they didn't leave the factory that way. You can identify the frame manufacturer by the serial number range and there are other ways. Colt's were, for the most part, during WWII inspected by GHD, Singers by JKC, by RCD. This was due to them being made in different Ordnance Zones (set up by the government). However Ithaca was made in Ithaca and Remington Rand in Syracuse both in New York and both were under in the inspector Col. Frank J. Atwood. The problem? The difference in value of $800 or more depending on condition for a miss match of parts vs. one that is complete and correct. How did the parts get mixed? Possibly while still in the possession of the government, they didn't care about that or by some "well meaning" person who though he was restoring it to correct condition.

01-25-2012, 04:37 PM	#9
TheGunClinger Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: SW Florida Contributor Posts: 2,386	Re: Ownership of a 1943 Ithica 1911 OK. I never thought of it that way as I always use the Ser# to tell who made what. Most of the "mixmasters" were frome being sent to an armory to be re-furbed. All makes were stripped and re furbished then re-assembled. Usually they didnt care what went went with what so you never knew what you ended up when they got re-issued. Back then they didnt worry much about collector value. Most times there were armory stamps on the frame. My 1943/44 Ithaca was refurbed at the Springfield armory and is stamped with an SA mark. Luckily for me, mine only has one grip that belonged to a Colt. All other parts were from Ithaca. __________________ New England Patriots Rule Next year.

01-29-2012, 07:11 AM	#11
TheGunClinger Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: SW Florida Contributor Posts: 2,386	Re: Ownership of a 1943 Ithica 1911 Your ser# indicates that it is indeed an Ithaca frame and slide. It is a 1944. On June 15, 1944 it was shipped along with 1149 others, to the Ordnance property officer at the army air base at Topeka Kan. That info I got from Clawsons Collectors guide to .45 service pistols. (small book) __________________ New England Patriots Rule Next year.

01-29-2012, 07:53 AM	#12
GuyF828 Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: South-East Michigan Posts: 8	Re: Ownership of a 1943 Ithica 1911 Thanks for the info! I'll post a pic as soon as I can.

01-29-2012, 06:54 PM	#13
aandabooks V.I.P. Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 187	Re: Ownership of a 1943 Ithica 1911 I have a student who's family has a WW2 Ithica that his grandfather brought home. It wasn't his personal carry gun and they don't have a huge attachment to it. What is one of these worth in about 90% + condition? They might be interested in selling it and I am always interested in a good deal.

01-30-2012, 05:18 PM	#15
GuyF828 Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: South-East Michigan Posts: 8	Re: Ownership of a 1943 Ithica 1911 Let's see if this works. This is my 1911. Attached Images

01-30-2012, 05:28 PM	#16
GuyF828 Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: South-East Michigan Posts: 8	Re: Ownership of a 1943 Ithica 1911 How's this? Attached Images

01-30-2012, 09:33 PM	#17
TheGunClinger Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: SW Florida Contributor Posts: 2,386	Re: Ownership of a 1943 Ithica 1911 Not bad except for those after market grips. You can probably find some originals either on-line or maybe a gunshow. __________________ New England Patriots Rule Next year.

01-31-2012, 07:32 PM	#18
ignats V.I.P. Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 93	Re: Ownership of a 1943 Ithica 1911 Keyes plastic grips with reinforcing rings would be correct. They are pretty easy to find. Simpson Ltd has them usually for about $30 for a decent set. It would make a world of difference. I see pistols like that sell for $1200 to $1500 fairly often. http://www.simpsonltd.com/

01-31-2012, 09:42 PM	#19
Silver72 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Central Texas Posts: 542	Re: Ownership of a 1943 Ithica 1911 Ask them how much they want for the gun. It's their piece so let them put the first offer on the table.

02-01-2012, 09:25 PM	#20
GuyF828 Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: South-East Michigan Posts: 8	Re: Ownership of a 1943 Ithica 1911 I talked him down to $600.00 and picked it up yesterday. I'll look into getting some original grips in the next few days.