Question for any long range shooters...

[Bo-Bo]

a friend of mine wants to start shooting paper out past 500 yards. He has his heart set on a 300WM. He wants to shoot a Remington that way if it needs to be worked on, he can find someone to do it....

Here is the main question: would he be better off buying a Sendero, a PSS, or go ahead and track down a 40x? I understand that there is very little difference between a Sendero and PSS. But how close are they to what a 40-X can do?

[bobski]

so many things must work hand in hand to make a 500 yd shot work. 300win mag is a good choice just because of its design.
but things like bedding, bbl harmonics, action, and trigger all play an important role. whatever he gets, it really needs to be smithed to shoot 500 yds.

[Bo-Bo]

so be better off by going with the cheapest and send it off to a 'smith? I was under the impression that the 40X came from the custom shop set up that way......

[bobski]

even expensive guns will still need tuning.

[Sherrer1*]

Aslo believe it or not but learn how to control your breathing and proper trigger squeeze.

[Shooter45]

The trigger should break between heart beats.

[300 H&H]

No question, go with the 40X. Single shot, stiffer action, better trigger and more weight, to absorb the recoil. NRA matches shot with such rifles are for 80 shots in a couple of hours time. Recoil is an issue, and the 40X is designed by it's weight and stock to make that more comfortable....

Not many used ones around as not many were made in 300WM...

Remington Custom shop 40X = $,$$$.$$

But if he is serious and has the chips, It would be the best.

JMHO, Kirk

[jack404]

before going "big " here i normally start folks on a enfield rifle , if they cant learn on that theres little a $4000 rifle will do

[RYANINMICHIGAN]

Originally Posted by bobski

so many things must work hand in hand to make a 500 yd shot work. 300win mag is a good choice just because of its design.
but things like bedding, bbl harmonics, action, and trigger all play an important role. whatever he gets, it really needs to be smithed to shoot 500 yds.

My savage 22 50 shoots over 500 yards out of the box. No smithing

It all depends on what he wants to do what his skill level is and how much is too much?

Just about any factory varmint rifle will shoot decent groups at 500 yards. I shoot ground hogs out to 450 with my AR and my VLS both in 223 never had one run off yet.

I would get a savage model 12 f/tr in 308. Put a good $500 scope on it and go to town. 308s shoot good with a bunch of bullet weights and powders.

Shoot I know plenty of guys that are shooting 6mm br and dashes out to 1200 yards and getting extreme accuracy out of them.

If you are going to rework a factory action then you would be better off starting with a custom action like Kelbly's 700 clone or stillers 700 clone.

[sub-moa]

I own a Rem 700 Sendero in .300wm and I love it. My son and I have always enjoyed target shooting at distances of 200-300 meters and have used the Remington 700 in both .308 and .270 calibers as wel as a 7.62x54R Dragunov. So when I ran across this .300wm I jumped on it. I can’t imagine your friend needing a better (more expensive) rifle than the Sendero for a long time. My advice would be to spend the money between the cost of a Sendero and the 40x on good optics and hand loaded ammunition.Both of these will really pay off in fun. I am now using a Leupold Mark 4 LR/T with illuminated Mil Dot reticle and Hornady165 gr BTSP amunition from their custom shop (cost now is about 2.30 per shot). We are looking at reloading!
Also I would buy a 10” cast iron skillet and hang it on a sawhorse about 600 meters and make it ring. Ha ! Have fun !

[sub-moa]

All of these replies are true, I guess it just comes down to dollars and cents. Just be glad you can still do it legally.

[terryu1]

Originally Posted by RYANINMICHIGAN

My savage 22 50 shoots over 500 yards out of the box. No smithing

Shooting or Hitting?? Sorry had to ask LOL

[Airdale]

7mm Rem Mag is an oft overlooked long range caliber that would have no trouble getting 500yds. Mine is built off a Stevens 200 action with a Criterion barrel. Go Stevens/Savage and you can smith it yourself. Find a stock with an aluminum bedding block and you're good to go. Then your friend will have something a little different that will shoot just as well and prolly cost a lot less.

If he has to have a 300WM he can still do it off a Savage/Stevens action.

[JLA]

Ill also second a Savage action. They are easy to tune and really dont need a gunsmith. just $100 worth of tools. Action wrench, vice, barrel nut wrench, and a headspace gauge. Id also recommend a .308 too. Itll shoot 1000 yds easy enough and if hes just shooting paper a .308 makes the same size hole a .300WM does, and uses half the powder to do it.

[sub-moa]

A .308 is indeed a fine choice for your friend to punch holes with out to 500 – 600 meters and it will do it with less pain ( recoil ) and for much less money.
BUT…….While I admit being addicted now to long range shooting I will warn your friend, once he becomes proficient at 500-600 he may want to reach on out and truly test the limits of his weapon.
Some things to remember are.
At 900 – 1000 meters a .308 bullet is tumbling from most rifles thus rendering most bullet calculations ineffective at such distances.
The .300wm shoots much flatter even out to 1100 + meters or about 1200 yards and is less affected by cross winds,and the military states target engagement out to 1210 yards are attainable with correct ammunition. While the .308 Winchester rounds effective military engagement limit is 800 yards.
There is about 5 pounds difference in felt recoil between the two rounds. That may not sound like much but your shoulder will tell you different.
I own both calibers in Remington 700 actions and like them both equally well. And if your friend will be satisfied with 500 yard shots I to would recommend the .308 only because of comfort and cost of ammo.

[carver]

http://www.***********.com/2011/09/2...ts-in-history/
While seven out of eight of the longest sniper shots in history have taken place in the last decade, better technology and training are only two variables in the long-distance shooting equation. Teamwork, natural skill and even luck all factor into the longest kill shots in the military books. The variables when shooting at distances up to one and a half miles can be staggering. It takes more than technology and know-how to tackle crosswinds, elevation and even the Earth’s rotation. Coming in at #8 is the .308, 1,367 yards. The .308 is still supersonic at 1,000 meters.

At 900 – 1000 meters a .308 bullet is tumbling from most rifles thus rendering most bullet calculations ineffective at such distances.

1. What is this Meters you speak of? This here is the USA we talk in Yards. That metric crap is for Europe.

2. What are you talking about? NO they are not. I am shooting a 308 with a 26" 12 twist barrel using 185gr Berger bullets on top of a nice load of Varget. My buddy is using a 24" barrel 308 and the same load. None of our bullets are tumbling at 800, 900 or 1000 yards. How do I know this? Well I spend time in the pits pulling targets at the matches. Watched a guy shooing 220gr SMK out of a 308 and his weren't tumbling at all either.

Is the 308 the best 1000 yard round NO it is by far not the best. It is the most popular because of F-TR requires the use of 223 or 308, Palma must be shot with a 308 using 155gr bullets. Palma people are an extreme bunch as in they will load over max to get more speed if it doesn't mean losing accuracy. They also shoot 30 or 32" barrels.

I have talked to some Nationally ranked F-Class shooters and many would use a 6 dasher if it weren't for the 308 or 223 limitations.

One cartridge I have seen that is really gaining a popularity on the long range firing line is the 300 WSM. more speed than a 308 with not a lot more recoil.

The fastest and easiest way to get into the long distance shooting is buying a Remington 700 5r or a savage 12 F-TR both in 308 and start going to town.

Personally I would put more time and effort into learning how to shoot than equipment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axVSDXfsF9M

[Twicepop]

We used to shoot informal benchrest at a club I used to belong to, I shot a 220 swift for years. I started of with a Ruger No.1 in this caliber, and got beat almost everytime. I then went to a Remington 700 Clasic in the same caliber, and didn't get beat quite as often with this rifle. I then went to another Remington, this time a 700 Varmit Synthetic also a Swift, and strrted winning more than losing. I then went to a Savage 112 heavy barrel laminated stock, again a Swift and was never less than third place with this rifle. With the ability to set the head space as tight as a match rifle, and the floating bolt head, my pick would be a Savage, plus they cost less than a Remington. Another option would be a Weatherby Vangard, or a Howa heavy barrel basically the same gun as the Weatherby.


those who beat their guns into plowshares, will plow plow for those who didn't

[sub-moa]

Woaa… calm down bud I didn’t mean to imply the .308 couldn’t hit past 800. I was generalizing for the fellow asking about the 500 yard paper punching. He will be (I assume) using off the shelf ammo. Using a JDM ballistics calculator at 800 yards all 165 gr. bullets and all except a 178 gr bthp from a 22” barrel are below 1129fps at sea level and 70°. The following comes from the US Army Sniper training manual. Printed in 2004.
"The US Army defines the maximum effective range of a .308 as 800 meters. The US Marine Corps defines the effective range as 1000 meters. There will be variances due to things like bullet weight, barrel length, etc. Generally speaking, bullets are no longer effective once they become subsonic, which happens at around 1000 meters with a 178 gr..308."
Also the training materials in our Govt. manuals (for what ever reason) distances are expressed in meters.
Still doesn’t mean you can’t hit way past that. But he will need more than box ammo.
Read on and you will see I recommended the .308 for his use. I just didn't want him to think it would shoot with the .300 win mag he was looking at...cause it won't.

[Rockyja]

Hello everyone,

I’m new to the forum, and from the replies, and information I have read, I find myself a novice among experienced shooters. Other then my military experience with my M1, zeroing in my weapon, the last thing on my mind was bullet velocity, and what grain load to use.

I have three guns, Smith & Wesson 38, Stoeger 12g Couch Gun, and my favorite, my Thompson Contender with 2-12" barrels and 1-14" barrel. I use my 22mag barrel at the range for target practice, mostly because ammo is cheaper, and I have more ammo to shot.

It’s a small 75’ indoor range, so I always shoot the full distance. I don’t care for the large targets because they don’t challenge me to shoot at the center bull. So I paste a 2" red or black sticker target in the center of the backboard and send it to the 75 foot spot.

My Contender is a single shoot, with standard front and rear sights, and it’s zeroed at 100 yards. So, if anything…it’s up to me if I get my shots into that 2 inch target. I do miss a few, but most of my 3 shot groupings are very nice and tight.

I have a 14" barrel I haven’t had a change to fire. It uses a Thompson 375JDJ 220gr and it’s not allowed at the indoor range. Not sure how far it will go accurately.

Maybe you can tell me. Any information would be appreciated.

Rocky
-----------------------------------------------------
"It is our own vanity that makes the vanity of others intolerable to us."

[jack404]

Rocky , I've a mate who runs Big buffalo safari's in the northern territory

he has one as your and dropped a 1800 lb buff at 400, a clean base of the skull / instant kill shot

thats a mighty piece of gun ..

its ruined two scopes , dont get him started on it , he'll bend your ear for a good hour or more

[Rockyja]

Jack,

When I shoot with my 44mag in my 12" barrel, it does have one hell of a kick. I added a tripod and it tames the kick a bit.

Nice to meet you, Jack.

Thank you.

Rocky

[jack404]

Most welcome !!

i take it you reload the JDJ there or have they become tame too ??

[Rockyja]

I've never reload it. I get mine thru Thompson Center. It's a hard round to find any where else.