60 gr / 223

[dhom]

I bought a 223 with a 1-12 twist for my grandson and would like to load Hornady 60gr spire point for deer hunting. Does anybody have a good starting point? [favorite load info or maybe a better bullet suggestion etc.] I have many years reloading experience but, not for this round.

[cpttango30]

I use 25.0gr of H4895 with Rem brass and a 60gr V-Max in my ar. It produces the groups you see below.

NOTE: This is an AR specific load. I started here http://www.6mmbr.com/223Rem.html

Remember to start low and work up any load not from a reloading manual.

[LDBennett]

dhom:

The 1 in 12 twist rate in your rifle is a big limiter in which bullet you can use in it. The original M16 was supplied with the 1 in 12 twist and the military found that two slow of a twist even for the 55 grain bullets. The bullet would tumble on occasion. They went to the 1 in 10 for that 55FMJ bullet.

In your case if you stay with the lighter bullet (not the 60 gr bullet you suggested unless it is unusually short) you will get better accuracy. The actual suggested twist rate is calculated based on the length and diameter of the bullet, not its weight. The Greenhill formula helps with this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrel_twist

It is only a guide and there are even more scientific ways and formulas but in general if you stay with the lighter than 55 grain bullets you would be fine in my experience. There are many to choose from as the 223 is a common varmint round.

A common and good powder to start with is Hodgdon H335. It is a ball powder which flows well through powder measures. See Hodgdon's Load Center on the web for reloading data or get their latest manual.

Good luck.

LDBennett

[312shooter]

in general if you stay with the lighter than 55 grain bullets you would be fine in my experience

+1 1-12 is typically found in the varmint uppers for AR's designed for the 40-45 grainers.

[JLA]

heres a twist rate calculator that uses bullet length, composition, diameter and velocity figures. gives you the exact optimal twist rate requirement for best accuracy.

http://kwk.us/twist.html

It is a program that runs the greenhill formula LD mentioned.

[gdmoody]

I have a Weatherby .223 with 1/12 twist. I am in the process of working up some ladder test to determine which load is right for mine. I already did one with 40 grain Sierra Blitzking bullets. I loaded up some and hope to get out this coming Wednesday for the test with a 34 grain Midway Dogtown bullets.

Here is a link to that first test: http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/showthread.php?t=102656

I think you should stick with loading bullets less than the 60 grainers you are planning on and I am not sure that I would use it for deer hunting.

[dhom]

Hi,,,,,,I understand that there is better twist rates for stabilizing longer and heavier bullets but, I am working with a 1-12. A quick call to Hornady describing my situation and a tech suggested I use the 60gr spire point. He didn't garuntee great results but, given that situation that is what he would try. I was hoping to gain some incite from someone that has experimented with this. I have also gave some thought to Barnes 53gr TSX. My experience with Barnes shows I can usually get good results going one bullet weight lighter.{performance on game} Not sure but, I think the first AR's were a 1-14 twist. As always thanks for your input!

[steve4102]

Originally Posted by dhom

Hi,,,,,,I understand that there is better twist rates for stabilizing longer and heavier bullets but, I am working with a 1-12. A quick call to Hornady describing my situation and a tech suggested I use the 60gr spire point. He didn't garuntee great results but, given that situation that is what he would try. I was hoping to gain some incite from someone that has experimented with this. I have also gave some thought to Barnes 53gr TSX. My experience with Barnes shows I can usually get good results going one bullet weight lighter.{performance on game} Not sure but, I think the first AR's were a 1-14 twist. As always thanks for your input!

Twist rate is not about bullet weight as much as it is about bullet length. With most bullets it is common for a heavier bullet to be longer than a lighter bullet. This is not the case with the Barnes or other all copper bullets. The Barnes 53gr will be longer and have more bearing surface than a cup and core bullet of higher weight. So, your 53gr Barnes may cause more issues than a 60gr cup and core bullet in your 1-12 twist.

If you already purchased the 60gr Hornady load em and test em. It's the only way. If not I would see if the 60gr Nosler Partition shoots well in your 1-12.

[JLA]

I believe the 53 gr TSX needs 11.8 twist at .223 velocity. so youd need to go a smidge lighter for your 12 twist.

[dhom]

Thanks guys,,,,,,I should have realized that Barnes bullet would probably be longer. I did not check first, so with the situation at this point I am going to try the Hornady bullet [60gr spire] with 24gr of H4895 and a standard primer and hope for the best. Maybe I am analyzing this to much. Heck I might not even have a problem.

[Sandman]

If the 60gr works, the Nosler Partition is another good round for deer.

[Chick]

I see everyone answered everything except your question. Did you ever find a load that worked with the 60 gr spire point, in your 1 in 12" barrel?

[gdmoody]

Welcome to the forum Chick, cpttango pretty much answered the question with the second post, maybe you need to answer him. The other posts were suggestions and conversations about personal experiences.

[LDBennett]

Chick:

He is operating outside the envelope because he is trying to use a bullet too long for the twist rate of his gun. The only way to determine a load that will work is to experiment, but stay within the parameters of reloading manuals for the bullet weight and style of choice.

It is all about stability of the bullet in flight. If the bullet of choice starts to wobble and/or tumble, which the Greenhill formula may say based on its length for its caliber, then accuracy may go out the window. Only testing at various velocities will prove or disprove the value of using this bullet in this slow twist rate barrel. Without the gun in hand to do testing, there can not be an "answer" to his question.

LDBennett

[JLA]

Id wager the OP has not chimed back in with a sucessful load because he did not find one with that bullet/rifling pitch match up. Hes gonna be limited to 50 gr and lighter with a 12 twist.

[10 Spot Terminator]

I am going to chime in here along with Steve4102 and Hornady who recommended the 60 gr. Spire Point to him and here is some food for thought on the bullet weight vs. twist rate traditional line of thought. If you take several different bullets of a given grain weight and checked the overall dimensions of each of them you will be surprised to see how much they can vary and in particular how much of the bullet is actually the load bearing surface behind the ogive. The Hornady Spire Point is one of those that although rather long and putting it in the 60 gr. bracket has a long slowly pointing nose compared to say a V-Max of the same weight with a very short load bearing length. I am finding this to be of some consequence in load developement as recently began investigating this issue of twist rate vs, grain weight after viewing litterally hundreds of threads posted from people who reload for the .223 Remington. If one thing was clear above all else it would be that the .223 unlike other calibres has the distinction of unlike other calibres to have no standardized twist rates as they typically run 1/7, 1/8, 1/9 1/12 and 1/14 with custom twists not withstanding. After reading all of the results from the hundreds of .223 shooters it was exremely evident that a quite large number of these shooters were getting their best accuracy results with bullet weights that per the twist rate rule of thumb should not be possible. Many of these had loads with bullet weights at both ends of the spectrum that perfomed very well but were ( and here is the rub,,, ) very bullet specific meaning other similar bullets by another manufacturer would not perform well at all . OK, so this gets me thinking what ( if anything ) might be the common denominator in all of this to cause so much dispairity ? So far my initial line of thinking is that maybe the little variances in load pressures brought on by increased or decreased load bearing surfaces along with the difference in the glideing metal compostion of a given bullet are coming into play here ? Case in point being my .223 bolt rifle with a 1/8 twist shoots a particular 52 gr. pill very nicely but not others I have tried to date and loves a 65 gr. as well that falls in the catagory of twist rate compatable . So here is more food for thought for the thinkers among us and no position on my part as to who is right and who is wrong. Am just saying that with so many others whos final results are outside of the box on this issue it bears invesigating. After all the world used to be flat dont you know ?

[LDBennett]

There are degrees of stability in bullet flight and they can rear their ugly head at different ranges. The Greenhill formula gets you in the middle of the stability spectrum for most situations and is the minimum twist rate. Faster twist rates allow longer bullets.

If you shoot the shorter bullets in the fast twist rate barrels then the bullets are said to be over stabilized. That is, the twist rate is much faster than the bullet length might dictate. In these situations the design of the bullet is important as it has to resist the centrifugal forces generated by the fast spin. If the internals of the bullet are not up to it then it starts coming apart. This is no wives tale. I went through this with my 223. The bullets disintegrated mid flight and never made it to the target. It is best to use bullets towards the middle of the road with respect to the Greenhill formula. But sometimes you can just lower the velocity of the bullet just enough to keep the bullets together. That reduces the centrifugal force.

Under stabilized bullets might becoming unstable many yards from the barrel. You might see good performance at shorter ranges and poor performance at longer ranges due to instability (wobbling and twisting and even tumbling).

While the Greenhill formula gives you a starting point, you should test bullets that are outside the demands of the Greenhill formula. You may be able to use them one way or another. But to minimize the testing and frustration just stick to the Greenhill formula and you probably can't go wrong. If the Grenhill formula were at all wrong in its predictions then it certainly would not have lasted all these decades for use by barrel makers.

To illustrate the over stabilization problem a bullet (of any length) that leaves the barrel at 3200 FPS from a 1 in 8 inch twist barrel has the rotational rate of 288,000 RPM.

LDBennett

[10 Spot Terminator]

Great info LD !!!

I am just now remembering very limited discussion from the reloading masses on how certain bullet contructions showed failure when driven to higher velocities with little or no reference to twist rates. I see way more testing than I could hope to achieve by myself is needed here and would ask if you or others may have knowledge as to any books or articles that have delved into this phenomenon ? I can see where listing the characteristics of any given bullet in its construction and how it relates to the RPM issue as well as its individual nuances lets say as to its jacket breaking down at lower or higher velocities in a given twist rate would be VERY beneficial to the reloader. I understand that most varmit rated bullets are designed with higher velocities in mind but wouldnt it be nice to know just how they compare to one another before you start your load workup for a specific firearm ? Imagine seeing on the side of a box of bullets not only ( as some do ) the recomended twist rate(s) but the recommended max velocity for each recommended twist rate ??? Accuracy is my major concern vs. velocity but I do like to know when I am getting ready to push the envelope on a top end load. I already opt to use powders that develope the lower pressures in top end loads for a specific bullet and to team that with the better bullet just seems to make sense.