AR 223 stopping power

[jbmid1]

Keep in mind the military can only use a fully jacketed round. Lots of penetration, little or no expansion. There are some really good slightly heavier hunting rounds available for the .223 now that would probably serve your purposes(chupacabra etc.) even better.

[Regular Joe]

Don't be fooled by the 75 and 77 gr. "new" bullets. They go slower than the RIGHT hunting bullets for the caliber. Study a little. Cheaper than dirt will sell you a 500 round box of remanufactured ammo from BVAC for $175, using the Winchester 64 gr. PSP. You could stop there, and be very well assured that you can stop 'em.
I've landed on the Hornady 60 gr. PSP as my standard hand loaded bullet. Yes, it's a varmint bullet. It can make just about any "varmint" hump up like a dead coyote.

[ms6852]

I read someone's signature and laughed pretty hard but it applies to the 223 as well. The signature read like this, "The 30-30 is not a sniper round, but I would hate to get shot in the head with it." The same thing applies with the 5.56 or 223. In the army we always had to qualify and some of the targets were at 400 meters just using iron sight. The m16 or now the AR15 is deadly and very accurate at long distances. The shooter on the other hand is another story.

[Snakedriver]

I have to snicker every time I hear the "5.56 round isn't good enough" line. It's been good enough for the U.S. Military for 50 years and they're not one to stay with something if it isn't working for them.

Anyone who thinks it's not a capable killing round needs to get out and shoot some stuff other than paper and see for themself what it can do. Those who have been in the field in combat with the M-16 & M4 rifles can testify to the devestating effects of the 5.56 round on human flesh.

Even a 55 gr. bullet traveling at 3,000 fps is going to transfer energy at a high rate and will probably not just punch a nice clean little hole through the target without fragmenting and doing massive damage.

Don't even get me started on the .380 acp round!

Originally Posted by Snakedriver

I have to snicker every time I hear the "5.56 round isn't good enough" line. It's been good enough for the U.S. Military for 50 years and they're not one to stay with something if it isn't working for them.

Anyone who thinks it's not a capable killing round needs to get out and shoot some stuff other than paper and see for themself what it can do. Those who have been in the field in combat with the M-16 & M4 rifles can testify to the devestating effects of the 5.56 round on human flesh.

Even a 55 gr. bullet traveling at 3,000 fps is going to transfer energy at a high rate and will probably not just punch a nice clean little hole through the target without fragmenting and doing massive damage.

Don't even get me started on the .380 acp round!

[carver]

Originally Posted by JasonS

So it seems to be the most widely disputed subject in my quest for an AR, time and time again,,,,,,,,no stopping power, short range power, long range still with the velocity it will stop people and so on.

Question is this, with a shotgun and a 45, would the AR be a good choice for shooting at a range and also for my main rifle for 1-200 yards and such in case of a street attack or whatever lol. Chupacabras coming down my block, whatever.

I've been following this thread, and I have to admit that the .223 is a lot of things, and to a lot of people. It is probably the hottest selling caliber on the gun market today. But if I wanted a gun that would give me real stopping power, I don't think I would go with the .223. .308 on an AR platform would be the way I would go, if I wanted an AR type rifle. I like big bullets, in a hand gun I want .44 or larger, and in a rifle I want 30 caliber, or larger.

[Mosin_Nagant_Fan]

It's not the entry wound that gets ya, it's what is does when it does 3 360s before exiting out the other side that can kill you. Really, any round that is used within its optimum range can do lots of hurt. I still prefer a 30cal, though.

[myfriendis410]

My best friend spent a year in Iraq. He had an M4, a Barret (sp?) and a Kimber 1911. He put +40,000 rounds through the M4 but traded up for a Stoner in .308-----because so many of the bad guys had captured body armor. He'd shoot a gomer three times in the chest and they'd run off. The 147 grain 30 cal was a one shot deal. This HAS to be a factor when choosing a self-defense gun; one that can penetrate hard targets reliably. (Remember the famous B of A shooting in L.A.?)

The 5.56 will work well, but I would suggest shooting 'em until they are DOWN. (Like my friend said: "Shoot 'em 'til the gun goes 'click'".

For general home defense you just can't beat a 12 or 20 gauge shotgun IMO. If I know I'm gonna be going to a gun fight I'll just take my .300 and shoot 'em from long range......

[jbmid1]

Originally Posted by Regular Joe

Don't be fooled by the 75 and 77 gr. "new" bullets. They go slower than the RIGHT hunting bullets for the caliber. Study a little. Cheaper than dirt will sell you a 500 round box of remanufactured ammo from BVAC for $175, using the Winchester 64 gr. PSP. You could stop there, and be very well assured that you can stop 'em.
I've landed on the Hornady 60 gr. PSP as my standard hand loaded bullet. Yes, it's a varmint bullet. It can make just about any "varmint" hump up like a dead coyote.

iI've studied the ballistics tables as much as anyone. That's why I'm leaning towards a .308.

[jlloyd73]

I have both. I wouldn't want to get hit by either rounds. If you are worried about the .223 and penetration then aim for a more vulnerable area (it is a very accurate round).

[polishshooter]

Didn't I read somewhere they found a Chuca-whatever somewhere in the South West?

The deal about "Disabling vs Killing" all of you have heard in the military is derived from the FMJ rounds mandated by treaty since about the turn of the century as being more "humane" in warfare.

All signatories signed on with all the fanfare of making war "humane" all while knowing that was the formula...a dead soldier takes one grunt out of the fight---a wounded soldier takes SEVERAL out of the fight NOW, plus a lot of people and resources transporting him and keeping him alive later.

It stems from the Brits during the empire days using "Dumm-Dumm" bullets, which was considered "inhumane" and in fact "pre-Conventions" was limited by public uproar for the British army to use only against "Natives and Non-Christians"


As for the above post, I read an article recently about using the AR for Home defense, and using light Vmax or Varmint Grenade style bullets with varmint loads, which made a lot of sense....

Better control than a handgun, especially in stress, low-light, but frangible on contact so less secondary penetration of walls, thus innocents, etc, than pistols rounds, regular rifle rounds, as well as slugs and buck, better penetration than birdshot from a shotgun which is (was?) the best choice...

And still would help your "defence," i.e,. "It was so desperate all I had to shoot him with was my HUNTING ammo!" as opposed to explaining away your "Tactical Buckshot" "Custom Defense" or (Gasp!) MILITARY ammo you used to a jury or non-sympathetic judge if you live in an anti-gun jurisdiction....

[jbmid1]

I believe the Norway shooter was using frangible ammo.
And it probably is perfect for almost every situation, except where the Blue Helmets, I mean chupacabras are wearing vests.

[jack404]

aim for the face ...

[gdmoody]

As far as the 1-200 yards go, there are people at the range I frequent that shoot the AR-15 out to the 400 yard targets with pretty good accuracy. I haven't shot mine past 200 though, yet.

[polishshooter]

I've used my almost unsuited Rock River 5.56 chambered HB 16" entry gun with a cheap Bushnell 3x9 scope on it to kill prarie dogs pretty regularly out to 175 yds the past two years with Black Hills 50 gr ammo.

I get just a hair under 1" with the Black Hills from a bench at 100, but closer to 2" with most other 55 gr fmj surplus, mainly the Federal XM193 I've been shooting.

I needed the entry weapon like a hole in the head, would have been better off with a 20" HB A2 I could have used in matches at Perry, or else a Varmint style.

Many guys use varmint AR rigs on P-dogs, but I'm "retiring" mine from that...even with a brass catcher last year, crawling around on the prairie looking for empties that missed the catcher gets old pretty fast

I MAY build a free floated Varmint upper for mine, or I may trade it for that new Rock River "Hybrid Varmint/Tactical" with the .223 Wylde chamber and the 18" fluted stainless 1-8" twist HB....

[fr3db3ar]

Originally Posted by jbmid1

Keep in mind the military can only use a fully jacketed round. Lots of penetration, little or no expansion. There are some really good slightly heavier hunting rounds available for the .223 now that would probably serve your purposes(chupacabra etc.) even better.

FMJ goes through and through in a poorly placed shot. My hollow points and soft points will do a lot more damage on the way through.

[permafrost]

Originally Posted by mogunner

I heard the same story at Fort Benning GA, but it was in 1982...

I went with the 7.62x39 over the .223 personally for my chupacabra defense rifle.

I did the same thing with a 7.62x39 upper for my AR. "Chubies" (Jack really is the original DNA contributor) are just like Daddy and don't go down easy. I've only ever seen one at deer camp late at nite ,when I'm the last one awake ,staring at a dying fire. Red eyes glowing , just out of the dwindling lite....

[permafrost]

Originally Posted by ryan42

what is a chupacabra?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2s0z-tX47M

[CCHolderinMaine]

The debate about stopping power of .223's has raged so long because it's a good question. The easy answer is there's no 1 perfect caliber. If there were, every army on Earth would have the same gun. The .223 is light and flexible. A 50 cal isn't. They do different things. Is one better than the other?

[CJ_56]

Is one better than the other?

If you want to stop a truck it is. If you want to kill a coyote one's better (unless you can afford $5 a round to kill coyotes). The right tool for the right job. Personally I prefer something a little bigger for SD. But I don't have to carry around my ammo all day and night and all day again. 7.62 x 39 is my primary choice in a battle carbine not because of the rifles (even though a good SKS is a fine machine that will keep chugging along for decades). It's because the extra power of the 7.62 x 39 round is considerably more effective IMO.

I shot a gallon jug (empty antifreeze jug) the other day and it jumped up at least 75 feet in the air. I'm not exaggerating at all. It was down in the creek bed (no water) about 12 feet below the bottom of a telephone pole up on the bank. It went over the telephone pole by at least 30 feet or maybe more. Add another 25-30 feet for the pole and you see it's hitting right at 75 feet. I've seen that happen before from almost the same spot actually. That's a bullet that's pushing a lot of power at 45 yards or so which is how far away I was when I shot at the jug.

To me that's very impressive. I've also seen big chunks of varmints blown right off with 7.62 x 39 rounds. If you hit a bad guy in the right spot and he will suffer significant trauma. I don't even like to think about this stuff because I never want to kill anyone but it's good to know I have the power to do great harm if I must.

I have more powerful rifles of course but they aren't semi-auto, they weren't $100 when I bought them, and they won't hold great big mags if I want them to. There's just that feeling of security when I hold a rifle like that and it's a feeling I don't get when holding my .223. I know it will do the job but not as well as I would like to be honest. I've never sent a jug flying like I have with that SKS. I have no doubt a person can be badly hurt with a .223 round. I just think a 7.62 x 39 gives you a lot more power with the only trade off being the added weight when carrying around several mags. I'm too old to hump it around anyway. Give me an ATV or an SUV or any ORV if I need to move around much. For short jaunts I can carry the extra weight.

[jack404]

Originally Posted by permafrost

I did the same thing with a 7.62x39 upper for my AR. "Chubies" (Jack really is the original DNA contributor) are just like Daddy and don't go down easy. I've only ever seen one at deer camp late at nite ,when I'm the last one awake ,staring at a dying fire. Red eyes glowing , just out of the dwindling lite....

yeah that cheap bourbon you folks keep serving a bloke , eyes glow , a bit more and your nose and cheeks do too then ya get really scary ..

yeah a fan of the 7.62 "short" as well eh you can pack as many as for the AR but they give a lot more punch to where ya want it

[gun runner]

An AR15 .223 Caliber has alot of stopping power up to 500-600 yards. Perfect weapon for Home Defense.Its also a great weapon to use to go hog hunting with a 30 round clip.

What it all comes down to is this. A solider can carry 3 times the ammo in 556 vs 762.

Doesn't matter if the rounds are bigger getting shot with either HURTS like a SUMBITCH.

So why do we want to cut down on the ammo a solider carries. More ammo means they can stay in the fight longer. The longer you can put lead down range on target gives you an advantage. Because 50% of ammo expended is to keep the goat rappers heads down while we move in closer or call in an air strike.

[CJ_56]

It's true that a soldier can carry more ammo for a AR. But I'm not a soldier so I prefer something with a little more punch. I don't plan on doing any patrols any time soon. But I'm glad enough that our soldiers have something better to carry for what they're doing. That would be great in certain environments. Shooting mountaintop to mountaintop probably isn't one of those situations though and I live very close to the mountains.

[ms6852]

CJ_56 in my opinion bigger is not always better. If someone doped up on drugs breaks into your home at 3:00 a.m. and you hit the center mass they will still keep coming. I saw this in Vietman and in Somalia and Mogadishu in 1992. When they are high they do not know they are already dead, they keep coming at you. Only think that will stop them is a shot to the central nervous system. Bigger gun with more recoil and your adrenaline flowing and your spinchter muscle creating enough pressure to make diamonds out of coal are all factors that act against you in a high stress situation when you only have seconds to react. Your best defense will be a cool head, a well placed shot, and a lot of underwear...I know I've been there.