M1 Garand and Authenticity

[cadena]

Im not even sure this is where I'm supposed to post this so bear with me.......Ialways wanted to old original m1 garand from WWII and I've always been told there 's probably no chance you'll find one. But I think to myself, there atleast a quarter of a million American soldiers with a m1 garand in WW2. So why is it so hand to find them now, because I know that they didn't get to keep them after the war.

I've also been told there's a way to tell when each part of the gun has been made by the serial number but how does that work I couldn't figure it out.

[jack404]

take a looky here

you'll see where many are and why ..

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...es-from-korea/

[cpttango30]

Just go look at the CMP web site www.odcmp.com

You can buy one or two or three from there.

[cadena]

Originally Posted by cpttango30

Just go look at the CMP web site www.odcmp.com

You can buy one or two or three from there.

Yes I'm aware I can buy one there but its usually a remake or newer version

[Alpo]

Of course it's a "remake". Military guns are rode hard and put away wet. When they wear out they are either rebuilt, of there's enough of 'em left, or scrapped for parts.

My Garand was made in June of 1944. Too late for D-Day but still WW2. All the parts except one are Springfield parts, which is pretty lucky. The barrel was made in 1962. That was the last time it was rebuilt.

If you are looking for a USGI gun that is all original - they don't exist. They've all been rebuilt. Some numerous times. They wear out. They were used with corrosive ammo and (for automatics) the gas system was trashed out. They would have gun-cleaning parties, where they would have a 55-gallon drum full of boiling water, and all the metal from every gun in the squad would be in there at the same time. You would get YOUR receiver. It's serialed, so you know that's yours. Then you grab bolts and springs and triggers and pins and whatever and put your gun back together. That's the beauty of interchangeable parts. They all worked. If you got any of the parts back that were originally on your gun, that was just plain dumb luck.

[Jim K]

There were some 4 million+ (not a quarter million) M1 rifles made during WWII, and about 2 million more made post-war. (OK, I can get the exact figures, but I am too lazy to look them up!)

M1 rifle parts were never serial numbered, only the receiver. Parts have a drawing number (literally that - it is the number of the master engineering drawing for that part) which consists of the part number and probably a revision number (dash number) like D28287-19, which is a bolt made to the specifications in drawing size D, number 28287, revision 19. The manufacturer is also stamped on the part. There are books listing when each revision came into effect and so to some extent determine if the gun has its original parts, plus a bolt marked SA (Springfield Armory) in an International Harvester rifle is probably a replacement.

As to "hard to find", I can't understand that. Every gun show I have been to has had a dozen or more WWII M1 rifles for sale, and I know one gun shop that has three on the rack right now. Then there is the CMP, which has already been mentioned.

But if you won't accept anything less than a totally factory original, untouched WWII era M1, all I can say is good luck. Some probably exist, but would be hard to find and even then there would be no way to tell if the gun is original or if someone has taken an upgraded rifle and restored it using older parts.

Jim

[cadena]

Originally Posted by Jim K

There were some 4 million+ (not a quarter million) M1 rifles made during WWII, and about 2 million more made post-war. (OK, I can get the exact figures, but I am too lazy to look them up!)

M1 rifle parts were never serial numbered, only the receiver. Parts have a drawing number (literally that - it is the number of the master engineering drawing for that part) which consists of the part number and probably a revision number (dash number) like D28287-19, which is a bolt made to the specifications in drawing size D, number 28287, revision 19. The manufacturer is also stamped on the part. There are books listing when each revision came into effect and so to some extent determine if the gun has its original parts, plus a bolt marked SA (Springfield Armory) in an International Harvester rifle is probably a replacement.

As to "hard to find", I can't understand that. Every gun show I have been to has had a dozen or more WWII M1 rifles for sale, and I know one gun shop that has three on the rack right now. Then there is the CMP, which has already been mentioned.

But if you won't accept anything less than a totally factory original, untouched WWII era M1, all I can say is good luck. Some probably exist, but would be hard to find and even then there would be no way to tell if the gun is original or if someone has taken an upgraded rifle and restored it using older parts.

Jim

I wouldn't mind one that has been revised if the parts wore out but I don't want to buy one that has been completely remade in the 60 or something. I want one that is from WWII and still has some parts from WWII doesn't have to be a complete original but yes I will definitely look into the CMP

[Jim K]

I see no advantage from any viewpoint of worrying about whether a rifle has been rebuilt or what percentage of parts might be original. When rifles were rebuilt in government arsenals and depots, they were stripped completely. Serviceable parts were put in bins to be used for rebuilding, unserviceable or obsolete parts were scrapped. Then the rifles were rebuilt using new, upgraded or serviceable parts. The receiver was just another part to Army Ordnance, but, it would be solely by coincidence if the trigger housing that was originally on receiver serial number 1234567 was put back on that receiver.

All CMP or about anyone else will say is that the rifle they sell is serviceable. Any seller who claims that his rifle is totally original, never touched, and has all the original parts is either asking a lot of money or is lying. He should be willing to explain how and why that rifle escaped issue and upgrading over 70 or so years. (Some rifles sent to England under Lend-Lease in 1940-41 were put in depots by the British and stayed there until the 1950's, unissued because of the ammunition problem. If they have not been modified since, they meet the "original" criteria.)

Jim

[LDBennett]

cadenza:

What you want , I assume, is CMP Correct Grade with a year of manufacture during WWII. They may be able to accommodate you with a serial number in the right range. Here is their definition of "Correct Grade" but note that they look through their parts bins to find the parts that go together for the year of the receiver. This is a made-up gun as almost every Garand you will ever see was. The Garand was made of truly interchangeable parts. All gun went back for service and the parts were all thrown together and withdrawn randomly. Probably no two parts ever originally existed on the same gun.

"CORRECT GRADE: (Very Good to Excellent)
Correct Grade Rifles are similar to the Service Grade (above), but will show less wear and use. Correct Grade rifles will have all correct parts for the date of manufacture with 80% or better overall original metal finish. The stock and handguards will be of walnut and correct for the rifle but will have some dings, dents, scratches and marring of the wood finish. Stocks will have the appropriate original inspector's cartouche. The rifle bore will be very good with no significant defects and with a throat erosion of less than 4 and a muzzle wear of 2 or less. Very good to excellent condition. Limited quantities are occasionally available. Prices start at $1150 depending on manufacturer"

While having an original gun sounds neat it is better to have a Garand that shoots great since shooting is what they were designed to do. The best deal going in my opinion for a Garand is one that shoots great and the Service Grade do that based on the two my son-in-law has. Better yet is the CMP Special Grade for those of us that want the most accuracy we can get out of a Garand and the longest life as they are totally rebuilt with newly manufactured accurate barrels. Here is the link to the Garand page for CMP:

http://www.odcmp.com/Sales/m1garand.htm

As other here have said, you will never find an "original" yet alone be able to verify its authenticity.... it is impossible. You can only be assured with the CMP Correct grade that every part is correct for the age of the receiver. Why that is important to some is beyond me.They must just want to stare at it and have bragging rights instead of shoot it. I would think it enough to know that even just the receiver is from the WWII period. I had one that was made in the very last month of WWII and I sold it because it was not accurate enough for me and bought a CMP Special Grade and all the more happy for it.

Garands are not like Mausers that had every major part serialized to the receiver. Even those are difficult to find original but it is possible. You pay through the nose for those Mausers.

LDBennett

[Dirtypacman]

CMP FTW, best $400 I ever spent on a rifle:

[jwrauch]

Originally Posted by Dirtypacman

CMP FTW, best $400 I ever spent on a rifle:

I got mine off g-------r several yrs ago. Was a cmp field grade. Paid $500 or so for it. Its a1942 springfield rec . I love it. JR

[WHSmithIV]

CMP currently has quite a few M1's for sale. To buy one you need to be a member of an accepted club on their list. The easiest way to fulfill that requirement is to pay 25$ for a membership to the Garand Collectors Association (www.thegca.org). The list of rifles they currently have for sale is here along with the prices:
http://www.thecmp.org/Sales/m1garand.htm

Good luck!

[LDBennett]

There is a competition requirement too but that is waived if you are a senior. You have to read all the requirements onb their web page.

LDBennett