Question Regarding Fully Automatic Firearms

[Sniper_Wolf_666]

I am aware that as a civilian I can own a Fully-Automatic Firearm or Auto SEAR that can be dropped into a semi-auto firearm to make it fully automatic, as long as its made/registered on or before May of 1986 and you pay the 200$ Tax (which is that required for each Full-Auto firearm you buy, so 200$ every time you buy one, or do you just pay 200$ one time and then your are okay'd to buy fully automatic weapons). But I was wondering what can be done in order to own Newer Fully Automatic Weapons. From what I heard, the only way to do it, is to own or work at a gun shop or gun-smithing company and you are allowed to make weapons for sale to LEO and Military only. Obviously these would not technically belong to you, and you couldn't bring them home, but you would get to test them and shoot them whenever. which I would be happy if I could at least shoot them when I wanted. So am at least close to be correct on this.


Also, I was wondering about military purchases. When you look on Firearm Company websites, or at some Online gun stores, you will see Fully Automatic firearms that say they are for sale to LEO and Military only, so does that mean that if you are in the military, you are allowed to own new Fully Automatic weapons ? but once you are out of the military you can't own them anymore. So for example, my brother is a UH-60 Blackhawk pilot, so can he go and buy a new Fully Automatic Assault Rifle ?

[goofy]

Welcome to TFF Sniper! Here in New York you can not own one AT ALL! so I can not help you but hang around someone will answer your question.
Mike

[Sniper_Wolf_666]

That sucks bro, I am sorry to hear that (And thanks for the welcome) I live in Washington state, so I am in the clear. Suppressors, Short Barreled Rifles, Fully Automatics, its all good in this state as long as your follow the rules and are properly licensed. Just got my Concealed Weapons Permit Last week, and it already saved my life !

My car is in the shop, and so I got dropped off at the local park and ride. I had awhile til my bus game, so I was sitting inside the train station next door, and since my phone was about to die, i went and sat by an outlet. This three guys who looked a lil younger then me, maybe the same age (I am 25) but they were a lot bigger then me, and had the whole gang tattoo's going on, and they asked if they could use my phone and I really have a thing about people using my phone (I don't even like my GF using my phone lol) and so i said no. And they got pissed about it and they walked off, but didn't go far, and so I am sitting there looking at my phone, and I keep looking up, and notice they are looking at me, so after about 5min of being stared at, i just calmly said, "Whats up?" and this apparently pissed the dude off, so he started threatening me, and then we he got a lil closer he saw my tattoos, and started saying that i must think I am bad ass cause I have tattoos hahaha which i thought was hilarious, cause apparently in their minds the only reason to get tattoo'd is to be a gang banger or something i guess. And i kept trying to ignore him, as he was threatening to jump me and jack my phone and ****, and so I stood up, and thats when the other two joined him and they started walking towards me, and one of them pulled out a knife, and right then I opened my hoodie and showed them my 1911 that was in my shoulder holster, and that was all it took, they could tell it was real, and they backed off, and started saying how they were just joking and they don't want any problems.

So yea, less then a week and my CPL already saved my life. What kind of pissed me off about that situation tho, is that there were hella bystanders and none of them decided to help me when i was being threatened and cornered by 3 guys, none of them said a word, or called the the cops, but as soon as i show my gun, then they call the cops. Seems kinda stupid to me, but it was no big deal since it was registered and i had my permit. But yea, just thought I would share that story while i waiting for someone to answer my question ! GOD BLESS AMERICA AND THE 2ND AMENDMENT !

[yetiman]

Better watch your back carefully, to much "justice for Trayvon" going around.......

[Alpo]

You seem to have a lock on it.

You can buy a machine gun if it was made before May of 1986 and is transferrable. There are three types of machine guns. There are "Pre-86 Dealer Samples", "Post-86 Dealer Samples" and "Transferrable". It depends on how they were registered. A dealer sample is just that - a gun for a dealer to have to show prospective customers. It can only be sold to another dealer. Because of that, it's much cheaper, as the prospective buyer base is much smaller.

If it was made before May of 86, it's a "pre-86 sample", and if the dealer decides to go out of business, he can have it re-registered as transferrable, and keep it.

If it was made after May of 86, it's a "post-86 sample", and if he decides to go out of business, he has to sell it to another dealer, or turn it over to ATF to be destroyed.

"Transferrable" means that anybody that can legally own a machine gun can buy it.

So a transferrable MP5, for example, might cost 20 grand, while a Pre-86 dealer MP5 would cost 10, and a post-86 dealer MP5 would cost 6.

The 200 dollars is a one-time tax on the gun. You buy the gun and it's the price of the gun plus a 200 dollar federal tax. You sell the gun, the new buyer pays your price, plus a 200 dollar federal tax. The gun gets sold five hundred times in its lifetime, and there are five hundred 200 dollar taxes paid.

If you want to buy another gun, you pay another 200 dollar tax.

You hear a lot of crap about "a class 3 license". There is no such thing. You can't get a license to own machine guns. You pay a tax on each one you buy.

And before some dealer takes me to task, no, you don't have a license to "own them", you have a license to "sell them". Or a license to "make them and sell them", but not a license to "own them". Ain't no such thing.

To be a dealer in machine guns you have to pay an additional license fee. First you have to be an FFL. There's a fee for that. Then you have to pay a "Special Occupation Tax". That's an extra fee. A "Type 3 SOT" can sell machine guns and other NFA items. A "Type 2 SOT" can make them and sell them.

If you want to play with a gun made after May of 1986, you need to be an SOT, and have a letter, on official stationary, saying that someone that can legally own a post-86 gun is interested in a particular type. That basically means a police department. So if your local police force or sheriff's department gives you a letter saying they are interested in buying some FN P90s, then you can get one. If they decide they don't want one after all, you're okay. You can still keep the gun. But when you give up the business, you can't keep it. You got to either sell it to another dealer or turn it in for destruction.

Military and Police purchases. You, as a cop or a soldier, are no more eligiable to buy a machine gun than a non-cop or non-soldier. The Police Department can buy one, or several hundred, machine guns, to arm its officers with, but the individual officers can only buy one that is transferrable. Same with military. If I design a great new machine gun, the Army can buy it, but Sgt. Johnson can't.

[jack404]

Sgt Johnson says that sucks ...

[Bobitis]

Originally Posted by Sniper_Wolf_666

I am aware that as a civilian I can own a Fully-Automatic Firearm or Auto SEAR that can be dropped into a semi-auto firearm to make it fully automatic, as long as its made/registered on or before May of 1986 and you pay the 200$ Tax (which is that required for each Full-Auto firearm you buy, so 200$ every time you buy one, or do you just pay 200$ one time and then your are okay'd to buy fully automatic weapons). But I was wondering what can be done in order to own Newer Fully Automatic Weapons. From what I heard, the only way to do it, is to own or work at a gun shop or gun-smithing company and you are allowed to make weapons for sale to LEO and Military only. Obviously these would not technically belong to you, and you couldn't bring them home, but you would get to test them and shoot them whenever. which I would be happy if I could at least shoot them when I wanted. So am at least close to be correct on this.


Also, I was wondering about military purchases. When you look on Firearm Company websites, or at some Online gun stores, you will see Fully Automatic firearms that say they are for sale to LEO and Military only, so does that mean that if you are in the military, you are allowed to own new Fully Automatic weapons ? but once you are out of the military you can't own them anymore. So for example, my brother is a UH-60 Blackhawk pilot, so can he go and buy a new Fully Automatic Assault Rifle ?

Why does this stuff keep coming up? Seems every couple months
we get the same ole question. And every time we put up the same ole response. Got any suppressor questions while yer at it?

I for one will not jump into this 'question' and I live here. No one else is qualified to respond if they don't live here.

Do your own research and make up yer own mind. Just keep in mind that it's 'your' interpretation of the law.

Better yet, ask yer local Police Dept. and get their response.

Good luck.

[yetiman]

I know when I have a question or story to post I try the search engines first....doesn't always work and thread gets moved. Cant speak for op but I do appreciate when someone takes the time to answer a question.

[Alpo]

I'm confused.

>I for one will not jump into this 'question' and I live here. No one else is qualified to respond if they don't live here.<

Live where? Are you saying that you live where he is, so you are the only one that knows the rules? Since the original poster doesn't say where he's at, that's a neat trick.

I've gone to many boards, and done a search for the answers to my questions. Sometimes the answer is there. Sometimes it is almost there, but I want clarification, because the question that was answered is not exactly my question. Close, but not quite.

Now, I'll admit, I've been on boards where the same question gets asked again and again and again and ... After the first six or eight times, I don't answer it any more. I think, "Jesus, noob, use the search function. That's what it's for".

But you know what? I never post, "Jesus noob, use the search button". I just - ignore it. If I don't want to answer the question, I just click the back-arrow.

That's easier on my blood pressure.

[muddober]

I have a question of Alpo and if it has been asked and answered, oh well.

If a class 3 dealer has a transferable gun or guns in stock/inventory when he goes out of business can he keep the gun or guns by transferring them to himself without paying the $200.00 tax on each gun?

Ron

[Alpo]

That is a good question.

If a dealer wanted to stock a silencer, for example, he could get it on a Form 3, from the silencer maker, and there is no transfer tax. But that's a NEW item from the maker.

There are no NEW transferrable machine guns. All transferrable machine guns should be on a Form 4. So for the dealer to get one in stock, he already had to pay the 200 dollar tax, to have it transferred from the old owner to him.

I THINK.

Stone Chimney should have the knowledge of this, since he is a dealer.

[Bobitis]

Originally Posted by Alpo

I'm confused.

>I for one will not jump into this 'question' and I live here. No one else is qualified to respond if they don't live here.<

Live where? Are you saying that you live where he is, so you are the only one that knows the rules? Since the original poster doesn't say where he's at, that's a neat trick.

See post #3. Not that it matters.

The point I was 'trying' to make was that we get folks on here all the time asking for legal advice.

Yes, I live in Washington (same as the op). I have studied the RCW's. That in no way qualifies me to answer the question. All I can do is the research that the op should have done.

It's legal to own a suppressor here if ya wanna jump thru the hoops and pay the man. You can even attach it to a firearm. But as soon as ya pull the trigger, yer a felon.

I'm not here to tell folks what's legal in their back yard. I'm not qualified, even if I am yer neighbor.

[RunningOnMT]

I agree with Alpo about just ignoring a question rather than beating up the asker of a frequently asked question, but I think the point Bob was making is that for us to answer these questions of legality of certain firearms or accesories is the equivalent of us giving out free medical advice. You can't beat the price, but you get what you pay for.

[jce07a]

In an attempt to avoid making a new thread that will inevitably tick someone off I have chosen to post my question here since it is similar to the OP's question. mine being: I understand that there is a $200 tax stamp on title 2 weapons. but say i go buy an automatic M4. i will pay the $200 and after paperwork, waiting, etc. i will be done and have my toy. but now that i have it and have shot it a while, say i want to remove the standard 16" barrel and put on a 10.5" barrel. can i just order the barrel, stick it on, and be ready to shoot? or do i have to pay another $200 for the new barrel too? and what if down the road i want to add a suppressor too? basically, my question is: once you legally own a title 2 weapon, does that make you clear to make other title 2 modifications to it? since you already paid the $200 tax stamp for the title 2 weapon? or would you have to pay $200 for every modification that falls under title 2 classification? would i be better off saving up a larger sum of money and get it off the bat how i want it instead of buying it piece by piece like most do with AR15s?

[justsomeguy]

Now this should be a stickey this excellent

[Alpo]

The can is a separate stamp. If you have a machine gun, and you want to silence it, you must buy a separate silencer stamp.

If the can is part of the gun - like an MP5SD - you can have that on one stamp, because it's a silenced machine gun. But if the can is an afterthought, so it can be put on or taken off the machine gun, that takes another stamp.

I have a friend who owns an MP5SD. He also owns an HK91. The sear is registered for 9mm, 223 and 308 (HK uses the same sear in all their automatic weapons, regardless of caliber). So when the (registered) sear is in the 91, it is a full auto G3, but when he takes it out and puts the semi sear back in, it's just a 91.

When the sear is in the MP, it is a machine gun, but when he takes it out and puts a semi sear in, it is now a 10" barreled rifle with a silencer.

So his SD had two stamps. One for the auto sear. And one for a "suppressed short barreled rifle". That way, when he takes the sear out, and it is no longer a machine gun, he's still covered.

I have another friend with an MP5A with a can. Even though he bought it with the can on it, since the can comes off, there are two stamps. One for the gun, one for the can.

Third friend has an Ingram Mac 10, 45. He's in the same situation. The can comes off, so his gun has two stamps.

I'm sure, in my mind, that barrel length is irrelevant on a registered machine gun. The machine gun stamp covers it. If you have a registered machine gun with a 20 inch barrel and you replace it with a 5 inch barrel there should be no problem. I believe you are requested (although not required) to notify ATF, so they could modify the paperwork, so that it no longer says you have a 20 inch gun, but lists the correct length.

But I could be wrong, having no actual experience with shortening the barrel of a machine gun. This would be a good one to check with ATF about, to make sure.

[jce07a]

Excellent insight Alpo....that clears some stuff up for me. thank you.