I just joined...

[RunningOnMT]

and I encourage members of TFF consider joining. This is a great group and a good way to network and coordinate between like minded citizens.

http://oathkeepers.org/oath/2009/03/...will-not-obey/


Orders We Will Not Obey “The time is now near at hand which must probably determine, whether Americans are to be, Freemen, or Slaves; whether they are to have any property they can call their own; whether their Houses, and Farms, are to be pillaged and destroyed, and they consigned to a State of Wretchedness from which no human efforts will probably deliver them. The fate of unborn Millions will now depend, under God, on the Courage and Conduct of this army” -- Gen. George Washington, to his troops before the battle of Long Island

Such a time is near at hand again. The fate of unborn millions will now depend, under God, on the Courage and Conduct of this Army -- and this Marine Corps, This Air Force, This Navy and the National Guard and police units of these sovereign states.

Oath Keepers is a non-partisan association of currently serving military, reserves, National Guard, peace officers, fire-fighters, and veterans who swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic … and meant it. We won’t “just follow orders.”

Below is our declaration of orders we will NOT obey because we will consider them unconstitutional (and thus unlawful) and immoral violations of the natural rights of the people. Such orders would be acts of war against the American people by their own government, and thus acts of treason. We will not make war against our own people. We will not commit treason. We will defend the Republic.

Declaration of Orders We Will NOT Obey Recognizing that we each swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic, and affirming that we are guardians of the Republic, of the principles in our Declaration of Independence, and of the rights of our people, we affirm and declare the following:

1. We will NOT obey any order to disarm the American people.

The attempt to disarm the people on April 19, 1775 was the spark of open conflict in the American Revolution. That vile attempt was an act of war, and the American people fought back in justified, righteous self-defense of their natural rights. Any such order today would also be an act of war against the American people, and thus an act of treason. We will not make war on our own people, and we will not commit treason by obeying any such treasonous order.

Nor will we assist, or support any such attempt to disarm the people by other government entities, either state or federal.

In addition, we affirm that the purpose of the Second Amendment is to preserve the military power of the people so that they will, in the last resort, have effective final recourse to arms and to the God of Hosts in the face of tyranny. Accordingly, we oppose any and all further infringements on the right of the people to keep and bear arms. In particular we oppose a renewal of the misnamed “assault-weapons” ban or the enactment of H.R. 45 (which would register and track gun owners like convicted pedophiles).

2. We will NOT obey any order to conduct warrantless searches of the American people, their homes, vehicles, papers, or effects -- such as warrantless house-to house searches for weapons or persons.

One of the causes of the American Revolution was the use of “writs of assistance,” which were essentially warrantless searches because there was no requirement of a showing of probable cause to a judge, and the first fiery embers of American resistance were born in opposition to those infamous writs. The Founders considered all warrantless searches to be unreasonable and egregious. It was to prevent a repeat of such violations of the right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects that the Fourth Amendment was written.

We expect that sweeping warrantless searches of homes and vehicles, under some pretext, will be the means used to attempt to disarm the people.

3. We will NOT obey any order to detain American citizens as “unlawful enemy combatants” or to subject them to trial by military tribunal.

One of the causes of the American Revolution was the denial of the right to jury trial, the use of admiralty courts (military tribunals) instead, and the application of the laws of war to the colonists. After that experience, and being well aware of the infamous Star Chamber in English history, the Founders ensured that the international laws of war would apply only to foreign enemies, not to the American people. Thus, the Article III Treason Clause establishes the only constitutional form of trial for an American, not serving in the military, who is accused of making war on his own nation. Such a trial for treason must be before a civilian jury, not a tribunal.

The international laws of war do not trump our Bill of Rights. We reject as illegitimate any such claimed power, as did the Supreme Court in Ex Parte Milligan (1865). Any attempt to apply the laws of war to American civilians, under any pretext, such as against domestic “militia” groups the government brands “domestic terrorists,” is an act of war and an act of treason.

4. We will NOT obey orders to impose martial law or a “state of emergency” on a state, or to enter with force into a state, without the express consent and invitation of that state’s legislature and governor.

One of the causes of the American Revolution was the attempt “to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power” by disbanding the Massachusetts legislature and appointing General Gage as “military governor.” The attempt to disarm the people of Massachusetts during that martial law sparked our Revolution. Accordingly, the power to impose martial law – the absolute rule over the people by a military officer with his will alone being law – is nowhere enumerated in our Constitution.

Further, it is the militia of a state and of the several states that the Constitution contemplates being used in any context, during any emergency within a state, not the standing army.

The imposition of martial law by the national government over a state and its people, treating them as an occupied enemy nation, is an act of war. Such an attempted suspension of the Constitution and Bill of Rights voids the compact with the states and with the people.

5. We will NOT obey orders to invade and subjugate any state that asserts its sovereignty and declares the national government to be in violation of the compact by which that state entered the Union.

In response to the obscene growth of federal power and to the absurdly totalitarian claimed powers of the Executive, upwards of 20 states are considering, have considered, or have passed courageous resolutions affirming states rights and sovereignty.

Those resolutions follow in the honored and revered footsteps of Jefferson and Madison in their Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions, and likewise seek to enforce the Constitution by affirming the very same principles of our Declaration, Constitution, and Bill of Rights that we Oath Keepers recognize and affirm.

Chief among those principles is that ours is a dual sovereignty system, with the people of each state retaining all powers not granted to the national government they created, and thus the people of each state reserved to themselves the right to judge when the national government they created has voided the compact between the states by asserting powers never granted.

Upon the declaration by a state that such a breach has occurred, we will not obey orders to force that state to submit to the national government.

6. We will NOT obey any order to blockade American cities, thus turning them into giant concentration camps.

One of the causes of the American Revolution was the blockade of Boston, and the occupying of that city by the British military, under martial law. Once hostilities began, the people of Boston were tricked into turning in their arms in exchange for safe passage, but were then forbidden to leave. That confinement of the residents of an entire city was an act of war.

Such tactics were repeated by the Nazis in the Warsaw Ghetto, and by the Imperial Japanese in Nanking, turning entire cities into death camps. Any such order to disarm and confine the people of an American city will be an act of war and thus an act of treason.

7. We will NOT obey any order to force American citizens into any form of detention camps under any pretext.

Mass, forced internment into concentration camps was a hallmark of every fascist and communist dictatorship in the 20th Century. Such internment was unfortunately even used against American citizens of Japanese descent during World War II. Whenever a government interns its own people, it treats them like an occupied enemy population. Oppressive governments often use the internment of women and children to break the will of the men fighting for their liberty – as was done to the Boers, to the Jewish resisters in the Warsaw Ghetto, and to the Chechens, for example.

Such a vile order to forcibly intern Americans without charges or trial would be an act of war against the American people, and thus an act of treason, regardless of the pretext used. We will not commit treason, nor will we facilitate or support it.”NOT on Our Watch!”

8. We will NOT obey orders to assist or support the use of any foreign troops on U.S. soil against the American people to “keep the peace” or to “maintain control” during any emergency, or under any other pretext. We will consider such use of foreign troops against our people to be an invasion and an act of war.

During the American Revolution, the British government enlisted the aid of Hessian mercenaries in an attempt to subjugate the rebellious American people. Throughout history, repressive regimes have enlisted the aid of foreign troops and mercenaries who have no bonds with the people.

Accordingly, as the militia of the several states are the only military force contemplated by the Constitution, in Article I, Section 8, for domestic keeping of the peace, and as the use of even our own standing army for such purposes is without such constitutional support, the use of foreign troops and mercenaries against the people is wildly unconstitutional, egregious, and an act of war.

We will oppose such troops as enemies of the people and we will treat all who request, invite, and aid those foreign troops as the traitors they are.

9. We will NOT obey any orders to confiscate the property of the American people, including food and other essential supplies, under any emergency pretext whatsoever.

One of the causes of the American Revolution was the seizure and forfeiture of American ships, goods, and supplies, along with the seizure of American timber for the Royal Navy, all in violation of the people’s natural right to their property and to the fruits of their labor. The final spark of the Revolution was the attempt by the government to seize powder and cannon stores at Concord.

Deprivation of food has long been a weapon of war and oppression, with millions intentionally starved to death by fascist and communist governments in the 20th Century alone.

Accordingly, we will not obey or facilitate orders to confiscate food and other essential supplies from the people, and we will consider all those who issue or carry out such orders to be the enemies of the people.

10. We will NOT obey any orders which infringe on the right of the people to free speech, to peaceably assemble, and to petition their government for a redress of grievances.

There would have been no American Revolution without fiery speakers and writers such as James Otis, Patrick Henry, Thomas Paine, and Sam Adams “setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men.”

Patrick Henry: “Give me Liberty, or Give me DEATH!”

Tyrants know that the pen of a man such as Thomas Paine can cause them more damage than entire armies, and thus they always seek to suppress the natural rights of speech, association, and assembly. Without freedom of speech, the people will have no recourse but to arms. Without freedom of speech and conscience, there is no freedom.
Therefore, we will not obey or support any orders to suppress or violate the right of the people to speak, associate, worship, assemble, communicate, or petition government for the redress of grievances.

— And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually affirm our oath and pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor. Oath Keepers

The above list is not exhaustive but we do consider them to be clear tripwires – they form our “line in the sand,” and if we receive such orders, we will not obey them. Further, we will know that the time for another American Revolution is nigh. If you the people decide that you have no recourse, and such a revolution comes, at that time, not only will we NOT fire upon our fellow Americans who righteously resist such egregious violations of their God given rights, we will join them in fighting against those who dare attempt to enslave them.

[jedwil]

Congrats and thanks. I joined for life a short time ago.

[Double D]

Been a member for a couple years.

[RunningOnMT]

The only reason it took me so long was I thought you had to be either current active duty military or law enforcement. Just happened to read info on a link at my local tea party site and found veterans can join. I signed up for a life membership also. A bit on the pricey side but monthly payment option helps.

[Awtoman]

Are civilians inelgible to join?

Tom

[jedwil]

Originally Posted by Awtoman

Are civilians inelgible to join?

Tom

There is an associate membership. Go to the homepage link provided by the OP.

[gvw3]

From their site....

You DO NOT have to be prior service to join as an associate member. We encourage all patriotic, liberty loving Americans to join us and assist in our mission.

[Old Guy]

Glad to find out about the associate memberships. I joined myself. I have two boys in the military but I could not serve due to medical. Thank you to all of you who have served and are serving. I proudly stand beside you.

[American Leader]

+1 ROM!

[Awtoman]

I went to their website and did some reading. The associate member thing bothers me. I would die if neccesary for the principles this Country was founded on. If that isn't good enough to be a real member, it ought to be. Not to take anything away from those who have served/are serving, for whom I have the utmost repect and gratitude.

I understand the difference between serving/having served your Country and just talking about it, or professing willingness to do so. And I have no problem with clubs/organizations for which having served is a prerequisite to join. But if they are going to include willing civilians, why draw the line of dinstinction between the two types of members?

Tom

[whymememe]

Send me a draft notice. I'll show up.

[whymememe]

Wait a minute is this group associated with the sipsey street irregulars?

[mb1]

Out of curiosity what is the point of Veteran's, Retired LEO's, and civi's joining? Unless your an auxillary member of an L.E. agency(even then its doubtful because there's no repercussion for disobeying), retired or former (unless your still within your recall date) means you won't be recieving orders to do anything.

I know my oath, I know what orders I will or will not follow, and I know what those I work with will or will not follow. To me all joining is for is to pay someone money. What do you get in return? A sticker? A patch? A list of people who supposedly will stand and fight when big brother comes a calling? Really? If you get a list I would imagine so does everyone else who pays their membership dues, right? So you put your name on a list that goes to any and everyone whether vetted or not who will stand with you against the evils you believe (maybe, maybe not) are coming to violate your rights? Any thoughts to who else would join just to maybe get their hands on said list?

Another question comes to mind. What is all of the dues money used for? Someone above mentioned it is quite high, having to use a payment plan. To whom does the money go? Is it being used to help returning Vets? Their Survivors? People whose Rights have been violated by over zealous Govt agents? If not, why not? Do any of you ask these questions, or do you just fork it over for a warm fuzzy? To me it sounds like another "Im a Billy Badass" organization to show just how patriotic you want everyone to think you are. Please explain the reason?

Oh yeah, what oath do firefighters (not knocking fireman by any means, my uncle lost his life fighting a fire. He was on duty for 30 some years of service) take in regards to the constitution and upholding it?

[whymememe]

Welcome to the forum, MB1. By entering this forum you are in good company. Most of us already know what we will do. Stick around.

[RunningOnMT]

Originally Posted by mb1

Out of curiosity what is the point of Veteran's, Retired LEO's, and civi's joining? Unless your an auxillary member of an L.E. agency(even then its doubtful because there's no repercussion for disobeying), retired or former (unless your still within your recall date) means you won't be recieving orders to do anything.

I know my oath, I know what orders I will or will not follow, and I know what those I work with will or will not follow. To me all joining is for is to pay someone money. What do you get in return? A sticker? A patch? A list of people who supposedly will stand and fight when big brother comes a calling? Really? If you get a list I would imagine so does everyone else who pays their membership dues, right? So you put your name on a list that goes to any and everyone whether vetted or not who will stand with you against the evils you believe (maybe, maybe not) are coming to violate your rights? Any thoughts to who else would join just to maybe get their hands on said list?

Another question comes to mind. What is all of the dues money used for? Someone above mentioned it is quite high, having to use a payment plan. To whom does the money go? Is it being used to help returning Vets? Their Survivors? People whose Rights have been violated by over zealous Govt agents? If not, why not? Do any of you ask these questions, or do you just fork it over for a warm fuzzy? To me it sounds like another "Im a Billy Badass" organization to show just how patriotic you want everyone to think you are. Why would you presume that those who have joined Oath Keepers have not researched the group enough to make a reasoned decidion to join. Moreover, why would we need to demonstrate our patriotism to anyone? Please explain the reason? Naw, I don't think so.
Oh yeah, what oath do firefighters (not knocking fireman by any means, my uncle lost his life fighting a fire. He was on duty for 30 some years of service) take in regards to the constitution and upholding it?

mb1, you're not off to a very good start.

[jedwil]

Originally Posted by mb1

Out of curiosity what is the point of Veteran's, Retired LEO's, and civi's joining? Unless your an auxillary member of an L.E. agency(even then its doubtful because there's no repercussion for disobeying), retired or former (unless your still within your recall date) means you won't be recieving orders to do anything.

I know my oath, I know what orders I will or will not follow, and I know what those I work with will or will not follow. To me all joining is for is to pay someone money. What do you get in return? A sticker? A patch? A list of people who supposedly will stand and fight when big brother comes a calling? Really? If you get a list I would imagine so does everyone else who pays their membership dues, right? So you put your name on a list that goes to any and everyone whether vetted or not who will stand with you against the evils you believe (maybe, maybe not) are coming to violate your rights? Any thoughts to who else would join just to maybe get their hands on said list?

Another question comes to mind. What is all of the dues money used for? Someone above mentioned it is quite high, having to use a payment plan. To whom does the money go? Is it being used to help returning Vets? Their Survivors? People whose Rights have been violated by over zealous Govt agents? If not, why not? Do any of you ask these questions, or do you just fork it over for a warm fuzzy? To me it sounds like another "Im a Billy Badass" organization to show just how patriotic you want everyone to think you are. Please explain the reason?

Oh yeah, what oath do firefighters (not knocking fireman by any means, my uncle lost his life fighting a fire. He was on duty for 30 some years of service) take in regards to the constitution and upholding it?

Guess you won't be signing up................

[Awtoman]

Originally Posted by mb1

Out of curiosity what is the point of Veteran's, Retired LEO's, and civi's joining? Unless your an auxillary member of an L.E. agency(even then its doubtful because there's no repercussion for disobeying), retired or former (unless your still within your recall date) means you won't be recieving orders to do anything.

I know my oath, I know what orders I will or will not follow, and I know what those I work with will or will not follow. To me all joining is for is to pay someone money. What do you get in return? A sticker? A patch? A list of people who supposedly will stand and fight when big brother comes a calling? Really? If you get a list I would imagine so does everyone else who pays their membership dues, right? So you put your name on a list that goes to any and everyone whether vetted or not who will stand with you against the evils you believe (maybe, maybe not) are coming to violate your rights? Any thoughts to who else would join just to maybe get their hands on said list?

Another question comes to mind. What is all of the dues money used for? Someone above mentioned it is quite high, having to use a payment plan. To whom does the money go? Is it being used to help returning Vets? Their Survivors? People whose Rights have been violated by over zealous Govt agents? If not, why not? Do any of you ask these questions, or do you just fork it over for a warm fuzzy? To me it sounds like another "Im a Billy Badass" organization to show just how patriotic you want everyone to think you are. Please explain the reason?

Oh yeah, what oath do firefighters (not knocking fireman by any means, my uncle lost his life fighting a fire. He was on duty for 30 some years of service) take in regards to the constitution and upholding it?

Not unreasonable questions to ask, IMO

It's kind of like the BBB. I don't need to pay them money to prove I treat my customers the way I would want to be treated. I do it everyday for free.

Don't misunderstand, I like and fully support the idea behind Oathkeepers, but I am also trying to understand what they could actually accomplish if neccesary, primarily with their retired and civilian personel.
Obviously, Oathkeepers who are active duty military and law enforcement could have a real world impact.

It was previously implied that it was bad form to ask these questions. I disagree. These are serious times, and some of us have limited time/resources to give due to family raising. I know I want my free time/hard earned money to be where I can do the most good.

I think solid organizations can stand up to reasonable questions or scrutiny.


Tom

[H-D]

It's called Oath Keepers, even retirees and reserves can Keep their Oath the oath isn't untaken when you retire , these men and women stood before the flag of these United States and said they would protect it from ALL enemies , if some jack booted thug comes to your door wouldn't you rather have some retired military or police or a non active duty member who has sworn to Keep his/her Oath of duty to you and me and this Country around ? We The People have the Right to fight back against corruption , the second amendment wasn't about squirrel hunting

[mb1]

Originally Posted by RunningOnMT

mb1, you're not off to a very good start.

Why? Is it because you don't like my questions, or is it because you take the Billy Badass nomenclature personally? Is there a reason you won't explain why I should send them my money and put my name on a list? I really would like to know why you think it makes sense.


The whole idea behind the organization is the statement that you will not follow illegal orders. Right? I mean it says so right on their home page. So again MT, what freakin orders will retirees, veterans, or fireman (serving or former) receive that they will have to disobey to uphold their oath? Absolutely none. Thats the whole idea of being retired or former, your not going to be getting any more orders(except the wifes and I dont think those count). So whats the point?

So like I stated for those individuals its all about the warm fuzzy feeling you get by putting the sticker on your truck. Your giving someone (who?) money (a good bit and for what?) for a sticker professing professing that you will uphold your oath by making a statement that you cant possibly break. Those that are sworn and that will receive orders are the only ones that this means anything for, and we know what we will do and what those around us will do without having a sticker in the window or being on a list.

[jedwil]

Originally Posted by mb1

Why? Is it because you don't like my questions, or is it because you take the Billy Badass nomenclature personally? Is there a reason you won't explain why I should send them my money and put my name on a list? I really would like to know why you think it makes sense.


The whole idea behind the organization is the statement that you will not follow illegal orders. Right? I mean it says so right on their home page. So again MT, what freakin orders will retirees, veterans, or fireman (serving or former) receive that they will have to disobey to uphold their oath? Absolutely none. Thats the whole idea of being retired or former, your not going to be getting any more orders(except the wifes and I dont think those count). So whats the point?

So like I stated for those individuals its all about the warm fuzzy feeling you get by putting the sticker on your truck. Your giving someone (who?) money (a good bit and for what?) for a sticker professing professing that you will uphold your oath by making a statement that you cant possibly break. Those that are sworn and that will receive orders are the only ones that this means anything for, and we know what we will do and what those around us will do without having a sticker in the window or being on a list.

I'd suggest you back off a bit. If you don't like the organization or its goals, don't join. You certainly don't know my reasons for joining but seem to think it's for some "badass" reason. And I'm not going to spend thousands of key strokes letting you know my reasons. Seems obvious to others.
So, don't join and move on.

[mb1]

Originally Posted by H-D

It's called Oath Keepers, even retirees and reserves can Keep their Oath the oath isn't untaken when you retire , these men and women stood before the flag of these United States and said they would protect it from ALL enemies , if some jack booted thug comes to your door wouldn't you rather have some retired military or police or a non active duty member who has sworn to Keep his/her Oath of duty to you and me and this Country around ? We The People have the Right to fight back against corruption , the second amendment wasn't about squirrel hunting

HD, I fully understand the oath taken, the implications and length of term implied by that oath, and what the organization is called. Read their "Declaration of orders we will not follow". Now how does that declaration apply to retirees, Vets, or Firemen? As I pointed out above it doesn't. They do not and will not receive orders that they will have to disobey. My question is why on earth would any of them send money to this organization? What are their benefits of membership? What is the money used for? And do you really believe that someone sending this organization money means they, more than anyone else will stand to protect you? My personal experience has shown me that those who profess the most perform the least.

What do you have against your so called Jack Booted Thugs? Do you believe all Feds are such (assuming thats who you mean, thats generally the implication)? Almost everyone of them I know (and thats not a small number)are truly stand up people. They do what they do because of what they believe in. It surely isn't for the money, it's not that great.

[RunningOnMT]

Originally Posted by mb1

Why? Is it because you don't like my questions, or is it because you take the Billy Badass nomenclature personally? Is there a reason you won't explain why I should send them my money and put my name on a list? I really would like to know why you think it makes sense.


The whole idea behind the organization is the statement that you will not follow illegal orders. Right? I mean it says so right on their home page. So again MT, what freakin orders will retirees, veterans, or fireman (serving or former) receive that they will have to disobey to uphold their oath? Absolutely none. Thats the whole idea of being retired or former, your not going to be getting any more orders(except the wifes and I dont think those count). So whats the point?

So like I stated for those individuals its all about the warm fuzzy feeling you get by putting the sticker on your truck. Your giving someone (who?) money (a good bit and for what?) for a sticker professing professing that you will uphold your oath by making a statement that you cant possibly break. Those that are sworn and that will receive orders are the only ones that this means anything for, and we know what we will do and what those around us will do without having a sticker in the window or being on a list.

Because some of us at one time took an oath to protect and defend the constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic, and we consider it to have been a lifetime commitment. True, we veterans wont be subject to orders to violate that oath but we stand ready to join with others who will. I didn't fight for freedom on foreign soil only to have enemies among us here at home shred that document.

Oath Keepers has been around for awhile now and has among it's members many good people, both currently serving and veterans, as evidenced by some of the responses on this thread. An organization such as this may be our last line of defense against those who are posing an ever increasing threat to our republic. If the time comes, I want to be joining with principled people to assume a role in that defense, not racist militias, black panthers, the KKK, or marxists. Honestly, I don't know the details of how the membership fees are spent, but neither do I know how my NRA membership fees are spent, or my donations to various charitable organizations. If you really want to know, why don't you email them and ask?

As to why I hesitated to answer your question, it was because of your attitude and condescending tone which was quite obvious. I don't have to explain myself to anyone, particularly someone that doesn't get it. You didn't truly want to know, rather you wanted to debate the value of an organization that you feel is frivolous. Just call me Billy Bad Ass and let it go. I wont play.

[mb1]

Originally Posted by jedwil

I'd suggest you back off a bit. If you don't like the organization or its goals, don't join. You certainly don't know my reasons for joining but seem to think it's for some "badass" reason. And I'm not going to spend thousands of key strokes letting you know my reasons. Seems obvious to others.
So, don't join and move on.

You suggest I back off? That kinda sounds like a threat. Is it?

Im simply asking why people think this is beneficial to Non Currents, what the money is used for, who has access to these lists of members(see below), are members vetted in some form or another(have to give a badge number and agency or Mil ID) to be a full memeber. Some forums I belong to do require that info just so you know people are who they say they are. I fully agree with upholding your oath. An oath sworn, is not a small thing. Just explain how the "Declaration" applies to Non Currents. As for "Currents"(for lack of a better word to encompass everyone), I understand the how the "Declaration" applies and the meaning behind it, but why during this administration or any other for that matter, would you want to put your career on the line by joining an organization that could at anytime be considered subversive (if its not already these days who knows), thus jeopardizing a 5 year check (Fed and Mil with clearances) or whatever ongoing background local LEOs may have to deal with? Not to suggest you should hide your beliefs in fear but what are positives? I know where I stand, those who tell me what to do know where I stand, and what I will or wont do. I've lost a position because I would not follow an unlawful directive, have you?

As for the Billy Badass comment, if you seem to think its aimed at you, well, thats on you.

[mb1]

Originally Posted by RunningOnMT

Because some of us at one time took an oath to protect and defend the constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic, and we consider it to have been a lifetime commitment. True, we veterans wont be subject to orders to violate that oath but we stand ready to join with others who will. I didn't fight for freedom on foreign soil only to have enemies among us here at home shred that document.

Oath Keepers has been around for awhile now and has among it's members many good people, both currently serving and veterans, as evidenced by some of the responses on this thread. An organization such as this may be our last line of defense against those who are posing an ever increasing threat to our republic. If the time comes, I want to be joining with principled people to assume a role in that defense, not racist militias, black panthers, the KKK, or marxists. Honestly, I don't know the details of how the membership fees are spent, but neither do I know how my NRA membership fees are spent, or my donations to various charitable organizations. If you really want to know, why don't you email them and ask?

As to why I hesitated to answer your question, it was because of your attitude and condescending tone which was quite obvious. I don't have to explain myself to anyone, particularly someone that doesn't get it. You didn't truly want to know, rather you wanted to debate the value of an organization that you feel is frivolous. Just call me Billy Bad Ass and let it go. I wont play.

Actually I do want to know. You started a post suggesting people join an organization. You gave very vague reasons such as networking with like minded people, then posted their declaration. Since your backing them I dont think its out of line to be questioned as to why you think people should join and send them money. Apparently other members above agree with me. I for one consider many things before I send anyone my money. Especially an internet organization. How do you know its not an Al-Queda front? Im not saying or implying it is, Im just making a point. Have you actually verified that the many "good people" really are members or are they just screen names? I can pull pics from all over the web put names with them create a web site and ask for money too, but I wouldnt suggest anyone send me any, cause I will just use it for nefarious schemes like making spud guns or other such fun nonsense. You say you dont know how the NRA or charities that you give money to spend it, then why do you give it to them? I dont know what exactly my particular dollars are being spent on, but I know that when I give to St. Judes that my money is being spent to cover medical costs for children so there families can worry about everything else. I know that when I give money to the NRA my money is supposed to be being used to support the 2nd Amendment. I know when I give my money to my Vet, its being used to help treat animals that are brought in that may not recieve care, and so on and so on. What does "OK" spend your dues on? All over their site I see links to Donate to support their advance. What are they advancing? They say they are growing in number, thats great, for what? Whats their goal, to give you a place to state that you will uphold your oath. Good for you, I made that statement when I took my oath, I dont need to say it again for any reason. They say on a couple of pages what they wont do and what they are not, but not what they do.

Im not telling anyone they shouldnt join, Im saying people should think about what there joining, and Im asking you why you think we should.

As for the attitude and condescension, thats a little harsh, the Billy Badass comment was more of a dramatic comparison to any number of other organizations that ask for money and offer a lot of hype and fluff and uber patriotism but not a whole lot real substance. The rest were just questions, take em as you will.

[Awtoman]

In my experience, most online forums don't like new members getting "uppity" right off the bat. I don't think you're allowed to discuss anything controversial, or voice a different opinion from the forum hardline, until you've "paid your dues".

mb1, I re-read your posts and saw nothing disrepectful, condecending, or inappropriate. You asked tough questions for sure, but they were no different than the hard questions you might ask before putting your hard earned money and valuable time into something like new home, or signing up for service, etc.

I too am considering Oathkeepers, but I want to put my efforts into something where I can make a difference. These are serious times. I want to be more involved than just signing a check, and sewing on a patch. But it seems far easier to ruffle feathers than get straight foward answers to tough but neccesary questions.

For the record, I am a relatively new guy with no stature here, and what I think carrys zero weight. I just think mb1 questions were perceived differently than intended, and judged incorrectly.

Uppity Tom