Mich. Gun Owners Protest ....

JohnHenry · 06-12-2012, 04:37 PM

In Birmingham Mich. ( just down the road a piece ) a young man was arrested for carrying a loaded M-1 rifle on a walk around town . This article was the first I've heard of it .

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-...nt;cbsCarousel

hogger129 · 06-12-2012, 05:06 PM

Good to hear somebody is speaking up about it.

marlin795 · 06-12-2012, 05:30 PM

Wow. OCing a handgun is one thing, OCing a rifle is just asking for it in my opinion.

hogger129 · 06-12-2012, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marlin795

Wow. OCing a handgun is one thing, OCing a rifle is just asking for it in my opinion.

As much as I would like people doing it, it is kind of unnecessary.

raven818 · 06-12-2012, 05:38 PM

Quote:

resisting and obstructing police, and disturbing the peace.

Quote:

Combs refused to identify himself and was taken into custody, where police say he was uncooperative. He also failed to provide proof of ownership.

Quote:

participating his right to carry the weapon

Hmmm, let's see. What went wrong here. Gimme a minute.

hogger129 · 06-12-2012, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raven818

Hmmm, let's see. What went wrong here. Gimme a minute.

How is one supposed to provide proof of ownership? I have the receipt for my handgun and a couple other papers I got it with, but I keep them at home locked up, I don't take em with when I'm carrying.

As for showing ID, I probably would have. Aren't you required to show it if an officer of the law asks for it?

raven818 · 06-12-2012, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hogger129

How is one supposed to provide proof of ownership? I have the receipt for my handgun and a couple other papers I got it with, but I keep them at home locked up, I don't take em with when I'm carrying.

As for showing ID, I probably would have. Aren't you required to show it if an officer of the law asks for it?

Wasn't there. But, IMO, they probably asked that question AFTER the part about..resisting..disturbing..uncooperative. They call that 'stacking'. Pretty common.

Yes, always a good idea to show proof of who you are. Otherwise, you could be someone they are looking for, etc..

There is a positive outcome. Now they have his prints on file. So the next time, he can say..you've got my prints, why don't you find out yourself.

graehaven · 06-12-2012, 07:16 PM

He was "creating a disturbance?" Bull crap.

Also, sorry, but this is America. The police do NOT have the right to demand you identify yourself. "Papers please, comrade."

What is this country coming to? We are in serious trouble. More jack booted thuggery.

whymememe · 06-12-2012, 07:22 PM

He's not old enough to have an M-1.

graehaven · 06-12-2012, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whymememe

He's not old enough to have an M-1.

He's 18. How old does he have to be?

whymememe · 06-12-2012, 08:25 PM

legally 18, but he is not old enough.

raven818 · 06-12-2012, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by graehaven

He was "creating a disturbance?" Bull crap.

Also, sorry, but this is America. The police do NOT have the right to demand you identify yourself. "Papers please, comrade."

What is this country coming to? We are in serious trouble. More jack booted thuggery.

Anyone who want's to debate with an officer if he asks for an ID, is certainly welcome to do so. None of my business.

Most cities of any size have bondsmen. A lot of folks I ran into had a bondsman on retainer, and a lawyer. True. Just pay them a few bucks a week when your not in jail, and when the times comes, they're already paid.

In and out in no time at all.

whymememe · 06-12-2012, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raven818

Anyone who want's to debate with an officer if he asks for an ID, is certainly welcome to do so. None of my business.

Most cities of any size have bondsmen. A lot of folks I ran into had a bondsman on retainer, and a lawyer. True. Just pay them a few bucks a week when your not in jail, and when the times comes, they're already paid.

In and out in no time at all.

i'm with you raven818, If you respect the Officer, most times the outcome is better.

armoredman · 06-12-2012, 10:20 PM

He's 18, which federally is legally old enough to purchase a rifle and rifle ammo. I don't know the laws of that state/jurisdiction, but it's very likely he is legally old enough to own and carry it there, as well.
Sounds like a kid wanting to get his name in the paper, "Doing Something", which makes for great grandstanding, and nothing else. In any case, his family will likely never gift him another firearm! The young lady in the picture would have been better served with a regular sling - looks like an ersatz combat patrol crossing the street!

graehaven · 06-13-2012, 09:03 AM

If he was arrested because it was a LOADED rifle, that's probably understandable, in an urban or even suburban area. It's not the norm, at least not nowadays.

The "creating a disturbance" line is just so much cop doublespeak. I'm so tired of hearing about cops who have genuinely CROSSED the line to infringe on people's rights that I'm NO LONGER giving them the benefit of the doubt.

They have to EARN it back. THAT is reality.

That being said, I doubt that the published story contains ALL the details, they rarely do.

As USUAL, anything to make gun owners LOOK bad, they'll run with it.

ka64 · 06-13-2012, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hogger129

How is one supposed to provide proof of ownership? I have the receipt for my handgun and a couple other papers I got it with, but I keep them at home locked up, I don't take em with when I'm carrying.

As for showing ID, I probably would have. Aren't you required to show it if an officer of the law asks for it?

Only if you're being detained & a reason must be given for the detention.

carver · 06-13-2012, 10:08 AM

As a general principle, citizens who are minding their own business are not obligated to "show their papers" to police. In fact, there is no law requiring citizens to carry identification of any kind. In Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada, the Supreme Court upheld state laws requiring citizens to disclose their identity to police when officers have reasonable suspicion to believe criminal activity may be taking place. Commonly known as "stop-and-identify" statutes, these laws permit police to arrest criminal suspects who refuse to identify themselves. As of 2008, 24 states had stop-and-identify laws. Regardless of your state's law, keep in mind that police can never compel you to identify yourself without reasonable suspicion to believe you're involved in criminal activity.

But how can you tell if an officer asking you to identify yourself has reasonable suspicion? Remember, police need reasonable suspicion to detain you. One way to tell if they have reasonable suspicion is to determine if you're free to go. You could do this by saying "Excuse me officer. Are you detaining me, or am I free to go?" If the officer says you’re free to go, leave immediately and refrain from answering any additional questions.

If you're detained, you'll have to decide whether withholding your identity is worth the possibility of arrest or a prolonged detention. In cases of mistaken identity, revealing who you are might help to resolve the situation quickly. On the other hand, if you're on parole in California, for example, revealing your identity could lead to a legal search. Knowing your state's laws can help you make the best choice.
http://www.flexyourrights.org/faq

Here is the list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_an...80.9D_statutes

raven818 · 06-13-2012, 05:58 PM

Excellent post, Carver. +1

goofy · 06-14-2012, 06:26 AM

After reading this and not knowing the details (just what the news says)and we all know they never tell us everything just what they want us to know.
1st why was he walking around with a loaded M1?
With out ID?
Did have ID and refuse to show it?
Was he a smart a## when the cops approached him?
Did he look 18?
When he was asked for ID did he get loud and refused to show it?
Yes he has the right to do so but with all the crap that happens these days I don't blame the cops for questioning his actions.
I think that walking around with a M1 on your back IS ENOUGH REASON FOR THE LEO TO ASK YOU FOR ID.
At 18 he is aloud to have the M1 and aloud to walk around with it BUT he should be smart enough to know that this could cause people to be alarmed and is setting yourself up for trouble.( at the lest be asked why)
With all the crap that goes on today People being shot in schools, shops,and so on strutting around with a M1 that is loaded for no reason but to show it off(was he headed to a range?)is stupid and you can expect to be questioned.
If he told the leo what was going on and was cooperative with them would he have been charged?
Was he cooperative and the leo took it to far to flex there mussels?
I don't know it just seems like there is more to this story that we do not know
Mike

45Auto · 06-14-2012, 01:34 PM

In some Michigan municipalities there are "must show Id" laws. I don't know if anyone has challenged these laws in the courts or not.

The Michigan 'Resisting and Obstructin' criminal statute has been given an extremely broad definition/application by our super conservative Court of Appeal and Supreme Court justices. Not following a law enforcement officer's orders could get you charged and possibly convicted for a wide range of petty things. It's one of several laws I would like to see overhauled in favor of the citizens; though that's not likely any time soon.

As to the 18 year old lugging around a loaded M1; even if it's perfectly legal, why does this clod think it's a good idea? Like so many young people these days he was rude and extremely inconsiderate. What are folks supposed to think when they see some strange guy walking around town with an M1 rifle? It's not legal to use an M1 for hunting in that area. Men and women would grab their kids and run for cover! I want to see more of our useless gun laws repealed in this state, but if this fool is walking around frightening people it's not going to happen.

DBMJR1 · 06-14-2012, 09:05 PM

In NYC they are conducting random pat downs in high crime areas. No grounds/cause. A pat down is a search, and obviously requires detention. Refuse and you are arrested.

The anointed one makes the rules now.

RYANINMICHIGAN · 06-15-2012, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by graehaven

If he was arrested because it was a LOADED rifle, that's probably understandable.

Why would it be understandable? If its not loaded it wont fire.

I agree these guys are just asshats making everyone else look bad. But the law is the law and if I want to walk through town with a M1 or a 1911 its all the same thing.

And I wont agree to change the law cause some people are asshats.

As far as showing ID, we do not haev to do that eiother unless you are being detrained. This is not Germany 1937. Gun control was big on Hitlers list BTW.

06-12-2012, 04:37 PM	#1
JohnHenry Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Livingston county, Michigan Posts: 1,215	Mich. Gun Owners Protest .... In Birmingham Mich. ( just down the road a piece ) a young man was arrested for carrying a loaded M-1 rifle on a walk around town . This article was the first I've heard of it . http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-...nt;cbsCarousel __________________ Freedom .... Is Never Free ! We need Term Limits .... Send the "Professional Politicians" home . -->

06-12-2012, 05:06 PM	#2
hogger129 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 4,064	Re: Mich. Gun Owners Protest .... Good to hear somebody is speaking up about it. __________________ Samuel Adams once said, "among the natural rights of the colonists are these: first, a right to life, secondly to liberty, thirdly to property; together with the right to defend them in the best manner they can."

06-12-2012, 05:30 PM	#3
marlin795 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Calvary Chapel Bible College; Murrieta,CA Posts: 755	Re: Mich. Gun Owners Protest .... Wow. OCing a handgun is one thing, OCing a rifle is just asking for it in my opinion. __________________ Native born Californian, adopted by the Great State Of Texas! PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN!!!

06-12-2012, 07:16 PM	#8
graehaven Advanced Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 2,853	Re: Mich. Gun Owners Protest .... He was "creating a disturbance?" Bull crap. Also, sorry, but this is America. The police do NOT have the right to demand you identify yourself. "Papers please, comrade." What is this country coming to? We are in serious trouble. More jack booted thuggery. __________________ The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." - Thomas Jefferson RESISTANCE IS FEUDAL... PREPARE TO SERVE.

06-12-2012, 07:22 PM	#9
whymememe Former Guest Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: FEMA Region IV Contributor Posts: 1,445	Re: Mich. Gun Owners Protest .... He's not old enough to have an M-1.

06-12-2012, 08:25 PM	#11
whymememe Former Guest Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: FEMA Region IV Contributor Posts: 1,445	Re: Mich. Gun Owners Protest .... legally 18, but he is not old enough.

06-12-2012, 10:20 PM	#14
armoredman Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Proud to be in Arizona Posts: 1,367	Re: Mich. Gun Owners Protest .... He's 18, which federally is legally old enough to purchase a rifle and rifle ammo. I don't know the laws of that state/jurisdiction, but it's very likely he is legally old enough to own and carry it there, as well. Sounds like a kid wanting to get his name in the paper, "Doing Something", which makes for great grandstanding, and nothing else. In any case, his family will likely never gift him another firearm! The young lady in the picture would have been better served with a regular sling - looks like an ersatz combat patrol crossing the street!

06-13-2012, 09:03 AM	#15
graehaven Advanced Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 2,853	Re: Mich. Gun Owners Protest .... If he was arrested because it was a LOADED rifle, that's probably understandable, in an urban or even suburban area. It's not the norm, at least not nowadays. The "creating a disturbance" line is just so much cop doublespeak. I'm so tired of hearing about cops who have genuinely CROSSED the line to infringe on people's rights that I'm NO LONGER giving them the benefit of the doubt. They have to EARN it back. THAT is reality. That being said, I doubt that the published story contains ALL the details, they rarely do. As USUAL, anything to make gun owners LOOK bad, they'll run with it. __________________ The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." - Thomas Jefferson RESISTANCE IS FEUDAL... PREPARE TO SERVE.

06-13-2012, 10:08 AM	#17
carver TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: DAV, Deep in the Pineywoods of East Texas, just west of Shreveport, LA Contributor Posts: 11,214	Re: Mich. Gun Owners Protest .... As a general principle, citizens who are minding their own business are not obligated to "show their papers" to police. In fact, there is no law requiring citizens to carry identification of any kind. In Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada, the Supreme Court upheld state laws requiring citizens to disclose their identity to police when officers have reasonable suspicion to believe criminal activity may be taking place. Commonly known as "stop-and-identify" statutes, these laws permit police to arrest criminal suspects who refuse to identify themselves. As of 2008, 24 states had stop-and-identify laws. Regardless of your state's law, keep in mind that police can never compel you to identify yourself without reasonable suspicion to believe you're involved in criminal activity. But how can you tell if an officer asking you to identify yourself has reasonable suspicion? Remember, police need reasonable suspicion to detain you. One way to tell if they have reasonable suspicion is to determine if you're free to go. You could do this by saying "Excuse me officer. Are you detaining me, or am I free to go?" If the officer says you’re free to go, leave immediately and refrain from answering any additional questions. If you're detained, you'll have to decide whether withholding your identity is worth the possibility of arrest or a prolonged detention. In cases of mistaken identity, revealing who you are might help to resolve the situation quickly. On the other hand, if you're on parole in California, for example, revealing your identity could lead to a legal search. Knowing your state's laws can help you make the best choice. http://www.flexyourrights.org/faq Here is the list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_an...80.9D_statutes __________________ Y'all be safe now, ya hear! Lamentations Chapter 5: 1. Remember, O LORD, what is come upon us: consider, and behold our reproach. 2. Our inheritance is turned to strangers, our houses to aliens. 3. We are orphans and fatherless, our mothers [are] as widows. 5. Our necks [are] under persecution: we labour, [and] have no rest. 16. The crown is fallen [from] our head: woe unto us, that we have sinned! 21. Turn thou us unto thee, O LORD, and we shall be turned; renew our days as of old.

06-13-2012, 05:58 PM	#18
raven818 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Jax, Fl. Contributor Posts: 4,423	Re: Mich. Gun Owners Protest .... Excellent post, Carver. +1 __________________ Firearms and Salt Water Fishing Retired 42 Years LEO

06-14-2012, 06:26 AM	#19
goofy Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Contributor Posts: 2,010	Re: Mich. Gun Owners Protest .... After reading this and not knowing the details (just what the news says)and we all know they never tell us everything just what they want us to know. 1st why was he walking around with a loaded M1? With out ID? Did have ID and refuse to show it? Was he a smart a## when the cops approached him? Did he look 18? When he was asked for ID did he get loud and refused to show it? Yes he has the right to do so but with all the crap that happens these days I don't blame the cops for questioning his actions. I think that walking around with a M1 on your back IS ENOUGH REASON FOR THE LEO TO ASK YOU FOR ID. At 18 he is aloud to have the M1 and aloud to walk around with it BUT he should be smart enough to know that this could cause people to be alarmed and is setting yourself up for trouble.( at the lest be asked why) With all the crap that goes on today People being shot in schools, shops,and so on strutting around with a M1 that is loaded for no reason but to show it off(was he headed to a range?)is stupid and you can expect to be questioned. If he told the leo what was going on and was cooperative with them would he have been charged? Was he cooperative and the leo took it to far to flex there mussels? I don't know it just seems like there is more to this story that we do not know Mike Last edited by goofy; 06-14-2012 at 06:36 AM..

06-14-2012, 01:34 PM	#20
45Auto Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,116	Re: Mich. Gun Owners Protest .... In some Michigan municipalities there are "must show Id" laws. I don't know if anyone has challenged these laws in the courts or not. The Michigan 'Resisting and Obstructin' criminal statute has been given an extremely broad definition/application by our super conservative Court of Appeal and Supreme Court justices. Not following a law enforcement officer's orders could get you charged and possibly convicted for a wide range of petty things. It's one of several laws I would like to see overhauled in favor of the citizens; though that's not likely any time soon. As to the 18 year old lugging around a loaded M1; even if it's perfectly legal, why does this clod think it's a good idea? Like so many young people these days he was rude and extremely inconsiderate. What are folks supposed to think when they see some strange guy walking around town with an M1 rifle? It's not legal to use an M1 for hunting in that area. Men and women would grab their kids and run for cover! I want to see more of our useless gun laws repealed in this state, but if this fool is walking around frightening people it's not going to happen.

06-14-2012, 09:05 PM	#21
DBMJR1 V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: New Orleans, La. Posts: 84	Re: Mich. Gun Owners Protest .... In NYC they are conducting random pat downs in high crime areas. No grounds/cause. A pat down is a search, and obviously requires detention. Refuse and you are arrested. The anointed one makes the rules now. __________________ Let Us Try Don