Cops Illegally Break Into Your Home? Shoot 'Em It's Legal In Indiana

[jack404]

an amendment of the castle laws there based on 4th amendment

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=181_1339559807

[whymememe]

Can't they just knock on the door. Use a bull horn. They don't have to use gestopo tactics and break doors and windows destroying property.

[Alpo]

That guy sure talks a lot to not say anything, don't he.

Why couldn't he say that the law says that if the police break into your house, you can treat them like anyone else that is breaking into your house. Simple.

Indiana Supreme Court said that if a cop breaks into my house, like with a no-knock warrant, in the middle of the night, all dressed in black wearing a ski mask, and I shoot him, defending my life and my property, then I'm going to jail because cops are above the law and cannot be touched.

This new law appears to say that if a cop breaks into my house, illegally, I can treat him like any other home invader and blow him away.

This is a good thing. Why? Because cops are NOT above the law. At least, they shouldn't be.

[jack404]

agreed

[whymememe]

Give a guy a gun and a badge, it goes to his head, he's king of the world. The only perfect cop was Andy Griffith and he was not real. But you know he alone improved the image.

[James Dylan]

If I didn't know they were police, I might. Hopefully I would be able to identify a uniform or at least make my intensions known, allowing whom ever it was to identify themselves, before I just started shooting. Once I adequately identified them as police I would put my gun away and find out what the hell is going on. If they had no reasonable reason (what?) to be in my house or didn't have warrant I believe my next course of action would involve an attorney. If they refused to identify themselves and leave my house I would probably try to sit tight and call the police. If they approached me or my family unidentified with unknown intesions while in my home then yes, I would probably shoot.

[whymememe]

Originally Posted by James Dylan

If I didn't know they were police, I might. Hopefully I would be able to identify a uniform or at least make my intensions known, allowing whom ever it was to identify themselves, before I just started shooting. Once I adequately identified them as police I would put my gun away and find out what the hell is going on. If they had no reasonable reason (what?) to be in my house or didn't have warrant I believe my next course of action would involve an attorney. If they refused to identify themselves and leave my house I would probably try to sit tight and call the police. If they approached me or my family unidentified with unknown intesions while in my home then yes, I would probably shoot.

Good strategy Dylan, I'm going to try and memorize that one.

[jack404]

i hope you folks never go through the gun control BS that happened here

i had a good mate murdered by rogue cops who forgot who they served

and sadly 80% of the good cops then left the force .. not wanting to be associated with scumbags

90% of cops are good folks , but the 10% , just like the rest of humanity leave a lot to be desired and put folks onto this whole BS cop hating deal

[hogger129]

Bad idea.

Call the best lawyer you can find and prosecute them.

I mean if you want to fire on officers entering your home without a warrant, be my guest... I don't want to be the next Waco Siege.

[jack404]

cops coming without warrants are prone to shoot the people in the house from my experience

i've had a dozen cops here no warrant , they can use my phone to call to get one and i'll make em coffee while they wait ( most the time its recods of firearms etc)

firearms squad can do "spot" inspections (no warning) but have a special annual warrant thats agreed to as part of having a permit here ( i've a dealers permit) but regular cops need a warrant ( or i may be up for privacy complaints!@!!)

but they know they go farther than what i say without one and i'll toss em out them sue them and their department , one tried and i explained his uniform now no longer mattered as he was committing a offence and i'd detain him and call PIC ( police integrity commision) to haul his butt away , he left and came back with his boss and we all had coffee .. The boss is a good bloke and Veteran..

[carver]

I hear my front door crash in, I grab my gun, and take cover behind the bed. The door to my bedroom is kept closed. The door bursts open, and a man steps into the door way, flashlight beam looking for a target. I haven't heard the words "Police", not once! You can bet your last dollar that when that man steps into that doorway, I'll shoot! It might be the last thing I ever do, but it will be done!

[jack404]

thats the case your a fool to not shoot

[carver]

http://www.doncordellforpresident.com/64.htm
Friday, October 2, 1992 in Ventura Co, CA cops decided that “maybe” the owner of a large Avocado orchard, Donald Scott, (Millionaire of the Scott Paper Products Company) might be growing Marijuana somewhere on his property, so they invaded his home, about 8:30 AM, homeowner is in the house hearing all the commotion, exited the bedroom door with a gun in his hand, he was shot dead. The cops had even estimated how much the cops would inherit; for the police department if they found drugs on the property. Guess what, no drugs, no Marijuana found, homeowner dead.

There are way too many of these stories!

[Grizz]

Yeah just recently a young vet was at home with his wife and children, he was sleeping and the cops came in ski masks with a no knock warrent. The wife woke up her husband scared they were going to get robbed, he grabbed his AR and had it pointing at the door. The swat team busted his door down and unloaded about 100 rounds into him. After that they identified themselves as cops to his wife. All because he "might" have been involved with some money laundering.

[lawdawg]

Search warrants are pretty hard to get, "No-Knock" warrants are especially hard to get. I've managed to get a few, but had to explain with my rear-end why I needed a no-knock warrant, ie: officer safety issues such as prior threats to immediately kill police officers if they tried to serve a search warrant. Normally police are required to "knock and announce", wait for a reasonable amount of time before forcibly entering a residence with a search warrant. The "no-knock" element just eliminates the requirement to knock and announce, NOT to properly identify yourself upon entering and/or encountering occupants. I've been a participant in numerous search warrants in my career, but have NEVER been party to one where the police did not properly identify themselves, such as shouting "POLICE! SEARCH WARRANT! GET ON THE FLOOR!" or something similar repeatedly as they entered the building. Therefore I'm a little skeptical when I hear accounts of police breaking into homes unannounced and failing to identify themselves as police. Not saying it doesn't happen, but not nearly as often as some of these "victims" report it. These officers are usually highly trained and know that the law requires them to identify themselves. Serving search warrants or fugitive arrest warrants are probably the most dangerous parts of law enforcement and is usually not taken lightly by officers; hence the extensive training in this area. Mistakes happen, of course, and there are horror stories of the wrong houses being searched, and innocent people getting hurt or killed. But a lot of work goes into making sure that these mistakes are eliminated. Believe it or not, but the thought of harming or killing, or even arresting an innocent person is what keeps me and the majority of other cops awake at night. I pray to God that never happens. I know that a lot of people think we get our jollies by bullying law-abiding citizens, but nothing could be further from the truth, at least as far as I'm concerned.

As a citizen, if someone busted into my home unannounced and unidentified, I would shoot them too. But if they properly identified themselves as police, I would not resist their search. But they better have their ducks in a row, because if they did not have a properly obtained warrant, I would never stop suing them.

I'm not sure about other states (I would assume they have similar regulations), but Alabama law requires that all search warrants be served during daylight hours, except for drug cases or the affidavit positively stating that the property is on the person or place. An example of this would be if an officer responded to a house on a domestic dispute (had legal right to be there) and observed stolen property inside the house that he positively identified as stolen, and obtained a warrant to seize the property.


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[Alpo]

The problem with that "properly identified themselves as police" is when it's three in the morning, they are all wearing black BDUs and ski masks, and they are all screaming at the top of their lungs.

You ever heard the term "rhubarb"? That's when a lot of people are making noise. It comes from the stage and from movies. When you need a crowd to be saying something in the background, but you don't write dialogue for them, you have them all saying "Rhubarb, rhubarb, rhubarb, rhubarb, rhubarb". When you have a group of people saying something, and they are not saying it in perfect unison (like, for example, saying the Pledge to the Flag), then you can't understand what they are saying. It's just NOISE. So, unless you have those 4 or 6 or 12 cops all chanting together, "This is the police. Drop your weapon. Do not resist. This is the police", all you got is a half-dozen people screaming unintelligible sounds.

And even if I could understand, "This is the police", the police don't need to be breaking into my house at 3AM, waving machineguns and wearing ski masks. Seems more like a home-invasion robbery to me. Someone is gonna die.

[Nighthawk]

One person screaming at top of his lungs can not be understood. I was sitting
on my front porch when they pulled up across street and pulled guns on
neighbor sitting in his car. The officer was less then 100 feet from us and
was screaming something that could not be understood. The young man just
sit there because he didn't know what to do. They could have shot him for not
doing what they thought they were telling him. The officer finally calmed down
and in a lower voice clearly told him to get out of car. There was from 4-8
patrol cars there and they towed car. Car was back in 2 days and last I heard
he was charged with was running stop sign and no insurance. He run stop sign
because police car was behind him with red lights on. I hate to say it cause
I like my local cops, but this scene looked like a scene out of Keystone Kops.
The young man obeyed every legible command given him.

[lawdawg]

Originally Posted by Alpo

The problem with that "properly identified themselves as police" is when it's three in the morning, they are all wearing black BDUs and ski masks, and they are all screaming at the top of their lungs.

You ever heard the term "rhubarb"? That's when a lot of people are making noise. It comes from the stage and from movies. When you need a crowd to be saying something in the background, but you don't write dialogue for them, you have them all saying "Rhubarb, rhubarb, rhubarb, rhubarb, rhubarb". When you have a group of people saying something, and they are not saying it in perfect unison (like, for example, saying the Pledge to the Flag), then you can't understand what they are saying. It's just NOISE. So, unless you have those 4 or 6 or 12 cops all chanting together, "This is the police. Drop your weapon. Do not resist. This is the police", all you got is a half-dozen people screaming unintelligible sounds.

And even if I could understand, "This is the police", the police don't need to be breaking into my house at 3AM, waving machineguns and wearing ski masks. Seems more like a home-invasion robbery to me. Someone is gonna die.

Unless the police have probable cause that you are dealing drugs and enough evidence to that effect to convince a judge or magistrate that you are concealing drugs inside your home, then they are probably not going to be breaking into your house at 3AM, waving machineguns and wearing ski masks, shouting "rhubarb" or anything else. But in case someone DOES break into your house, and you get confused about who it is, here are some clues: If you can see that they are all wearing black BDUs and ski masks, you should also be able to see the word "POLICE" emblazoned across their front and back in large contrasting letters and a badge plainly visible as required by law. If you cannot see what type of clothing they are wearing, badges or letters, but they are shouting... well, anything; it is probably the police, because burglars usually do not break in screaming to the top of their lungs.

Again, no-knock warrants are extremely rare. 99%+ of search warrants, even those served at 3:AM there is a distinct (one person) shouting of "POLICE! SEARCH WARRANT" before the police even breach the door. This is required by law and is the same everywhere in the US. Then as police enter and encounter people, they continue to identify themselves and give orders; and, yes, there can be some level of confusion here (some by design), as everyone is shouting rhubarb. There is some intent to startle and bewilder those inside that may be a potential threat to minimize that threat. This is why some (I never have) use flash-bang grenades, etc.

I've been on countless search warrants, even some at early morning hours, but have NEVER had one single person complain that they did not know we were the police. Unless you've ever helped serve a search warrant, or had one served at your residence, then you really don't know the tactics used or the effectiveness thereof. If you do have first-hand knowledge, either as a law-enforcement officer, or as the recipient of a search warrant, where the attempts of LEOs to properly identify themselves failed, then I would be very interested in your theories of why it failed. But I am a little weary of those that are continuously critical of everything the police do and create imaginary problems and boast thinly veiled threats if the police ever attempt to do whatever scenario they have created in their mind.


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[armoredman]

Thank you lawdawg, I appreciate that, a well written and experienced response.
I also remember the infamous Rampart LAPD division where officers ran their own illegal entry scams. Under the IA State Supreme Court decision, a Rampart style operation in that state would have been operating in complete safety, as it would be illegal to defend yourself against someone breaking the law they swore to serve. It IS obvious that the cases of mistaken identity/address are rare, or they wouldn't make the news, but they DO exist, and it does happen. I wish many more officers were concerned with doing things correctly, (reference the recent story from D.C. http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/...s-home-over-g/

Then the cop said to me, ‘I don’t have time to play this constitutional bull**** with you. We’re going to break your door in, and you’re going to have to pay for a new door.”

, but the fact is there are seemingly more and more of the younger types that seriously believe it is US VS THEM against anyone who isn't an officer. This is disturbing, and I think this Indiana law,( which i don't doubt for one second won't be quickly stayed by a liberal activist judge and will be fought to SCOTUS with Eric I-never-met-a-civilian-gun-owner-I-didn't-hate Holder pushing for its instant repeal.), is a way to get that small minority to sit up and pay attention to ALL the laws governing police behavior.
I certainly hope that this law is NEVER tested in court due to an actual instance of usage, and I can see it being twisted by criminals to try to get themselves out of trouble...but as you said, a properly executed warrant throws this "defense" to the curb.

[soundguy]

Originally Posted by jack404

i hope you folks never go through the gun control BS that happened here

i had a good mate murdered by rogue cops who forgot who they served

and sadly 80% of the good cops then left the force .. not wanting to be associated with scumbags

90% of cops are good folks , but the 10% , just like the rest of humanity leave a lot to be desired and put folks onto this whole BS cop hating deal

we are.. it's just insidious and disguised and slow craling so as to overtake us bit by bit.

I'd wager 'ammo control' is much easeir to pass than 'gun control'.. choke off an ammo supply or control it / limit it, and you effectivel have defacto gun control , notwithstanding the very small % of gun owners that also reload, or shoot primitive weapons.. etc..

[armoredman]

Actually, soundguy, if you look at state laws as opposed to federal actions, you will see a general trend of better self defense/firearms ownership laws in many states. A few bastions of leftism/statism are trying to tighten the screws, but many such as AZ, AK, Wy and others, are making things better for citizens.

[lawdawg]

Originally Posted by armoredman

... , but the fact is there are seemingly more and more of the younger types that seriously believe it is US VS THEM against anyone who isn't an officer. This is disturbing, and I think this Indiana law,( which i don't doubt for one second won't be quickly stayed by a liberal activist judge and will be fought to SCOTUS with Eric I-never-met-a-civilian-gun-owner-I-didn't-hate Holder pushing for its instant repeal.), is a way to get that small minority to sit up and pay attention to ALL the laws governing police behavior.
I certainly hope that this law is NEVER tested in court due to an actual instance of usage, and I can see it being twisted by criminals to try to get themselves out of trouble...but as you said, a properly executed warrant throws this "defense" to the curb.

Thanks,

I think the original thread was about cops illegally breaking into your house. I will never defend anyone, whether they have a badge or not, that illegally does anything. Keep in mind that does not include cops who act in good faith and believe they are acting in a legal manner, but those who don't care to do things the right way, or purposely break the law for their own profitablity. You are right that some believe in an "us-vs.-them" thing, and I can see the chasm growing ever wider between law enforcement and the citizens they are sworn to protect and serve. Part of it is due to the machismo and arrogance that some officers have; some is due to a general mistrust generated partly by rogue police officers and partly by a biased media: and some is due to those in our society that are constantly critical of EVERYTHING that the police do. I'm all for people who have constructive criticism. But most just want to complain, even if they have nothing to complain about, without offering any viable alternative.

It would be sweet if we could just go knock on John Thug's front door at lunchtime; patiently wait for him to answer; explain that we have a search warrant and read it aloud to him and give him time to carefully examine it; and, once he has determined that it is legal, he invites us in and tells us where we can find his stash. But here in the real world, allowing Mr. Thug any time will result in, in a best-case scenario, destroyed evidence, and/or, in a worst-case scenario, dead police officers and a hostage situation. Whereby, those same critics of police breaking down doors and shouting would be the first to criticize the police for NOT breaking down the door and getting control of the situation before it escalated into a mess. I don't want to use profanity here, but there is a saying among LEOs that you're dam#d if you do and dam#ed if you don't. In other words, no matter what we do, we will be told it was wrong by someone. Just do what you were trained to do and what you believe is the right thing and let the complainers complain. But I would be lying if I said it didn't get old, and it does widen that chasm a little bit more.


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[cpttango30]

Tell that to the guy who had his house burnt down by police. His crime was having an address close to that of a drug dealer.

What about the man drug out into the front yard in flex cuffs an his drawers left laying on the ground in full sight of the neighbors. For what? I think his ex wife didnt pay her tudent loan. Ex wife of 6 years.

[gvw3]

When I was in my 20's I lived in a pretty bad area. One night the police (MAN, Metro Area Drug) squad had a warrant at a home down the street. Not sure if it was a no knock or what.

They kicked the front door down and on entry the home owner was cleaning his shotgun as he watched TV. They shot and killed him on the spot.

One big problem is they had the wrong address. The guy they were looking for lived across the street. The guy had a wife and 3 kid's.

I don't think there should be any no knock warrants. Mistakes like this should never happen.

[Grizz]

Originally Posted by lawdawg

It would be sweet if we could just go knock on John Thug's front door at lunchtime; patiently wait for him to answer; explain that we have a search warrant and read it aloud to him and give him time to carefully examine it; and, once he has determined that it is legal, he invites us in and tells us where we can find his stash. But here in the real world, allowing Mr. Thug any time will result in, in a best-case scenario, destroyed evidence, and/or, in a worst-case scenario, dead police officers and a hostage situation.


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So what seperates Mr. thug from joe shmoe? What kind of convictions do you need to be considered a "thug" and be treated different than other people?