Copper, and more copper!!!!

[Indy Bob]

I would like to ask folks that most likely do a lot more shooting, (and then cleaning their rifles) than I do.

I shoot a .22-250, using Hornady Match HP, 53 gr bullets, 38.0 gr. of H-380, and CCI LR primers. I thought I was cleaning my rifle real good ..... I am kind of a "picky" type person, but MAYBE I was not doing such a good job.

The rifle was always cleaned after a shooting session. I used to use Marksman Choice No. 7, throughly run patches till fairly clean and dry..... then use Hoppes #9 to finish up. Yes ... I did get some blue residue to show I got out copper using Marksmans Choice. I thought GOOD!

Since then I started using Barnes CR-10, and also bought an aluminum nylon brush and jag to eliminate a false positive and blue color from the brass tips.

IS THIS the "NORMAL" amount of blue color on the patches in the photo below after only 43 rounds??
This is after only 43 rounds fired, and ONE cleaning session.
Barrel did get pretty warm in one round of groups.

I used the CR-10 and wet the bore....AND let it set for 10 minutes. I ran the nylon brush through several times........ then started drying it out. The first several patches, dark blue, were from the CR-10. I thought that was it. WRONG!!
ALL the rest of the patches were still turning blue with a 1/2 and 1/2 mix of Hoppes 9 and Kroil.

Again guys...... Is this normal, or am I getting out an old build up of copper?

Thanks, in advance
Indy Bob

[hardluk1]

Check PM

[Bindernut]

Looks to me like you're probably still washing out some old deposits.
If your bore is even slightly rough it will trap copper down in the pores and yep it'll take a few passes to get it to come completely clean. If it's a fairly new rifle with not many rounds through it, then the copper might be getting trapped in machine marks from the rifling process.
Personally I don't believe in lapping a barrel, but I know a lapped (polished) barrel will come a lot cleaner than a barrel with the typical machine marks.

You might need to do several of the soak/scrub/swab passes like you've got pictured there to get it down any cleaner. I usually do two soak/scrub cycles on my barrels after a range session (which is usually 50 rounds at the max).

Actually, that's about all the cleaner that I bother to do my barrels.
There's always a little tinge of blue leftover when I call it quits even after two cleaning cycles.

I use either Sweets7.62 or CR-10 for copper and Kroil for powder/lead fouling.
Just remember to follow the instructions and do NOT let the ammonia cleaners sit in the bore too long or they will start to pit the bore itself.

[Indy Bob]

Originally Posted by hardluk1

Check PM

I went back and edited this post. DUHHHHHHH!
I had early morning "cobwebs" in the empty space between my ears.
I hit me when I later saw my email with a PM for me.

What do the letters "PM" stand for?? (Beside afternoon/evening.)

[carver]

PM stands for Private Message. Up at the top right corner of the page where it says Welcome Indy Bob, you will find the PM.

[Indy Bob]

I received a PM from one of you fellas and he suggested that since my load recipe was not "over the top, or weird", that maybe a bore scoping was something to have done to see what might be going on.

Now...... since I have been away from actively shooting for about 20 years.... I am going to have to assume that bore scoping is a "small TV type camera" looking in the bore. Would that be correct?
Also..... could I get some "ball park prices" for that service? Again ..... I assume a gunsmith does this.

Finally..... I know I am 71, I have shot left handed since 8 or 10 yrs old, and now I have a left eye problem that forces me to shoot RIGHT handed starting this year.

That being said ..... I know I make bad shots once in a while, and the groups are larger than before, but it just seems that the 22-250 should be "doing it's part" too.
(See next paragraph as a reason for the statement above)

What is attached are 2 ....... 100 yard targets .... Shot with my Savage Mark II FV Rimfire, .22 cal. Long Rifle, 12X scope. The old goat can still shoot fairly well .... even right handed.

[Zane71464]

As for your cleaning Bob, I got to agree with Bindernut.
One thing I do is to use a brass brush with some Solvent (Hoppes 9) and run it through from breech to muzzel and make SEVERAL passes.
Then I take a patch over the brass brush and soak it with the same and make a few passes and let the excess set a while in the barrel to sort of, have time to soak a bit.

Then I'll take a clean patch with a jag and run with patch after patch til it comes out CLEAN.

As far as your groups, I dont see not a thing wrong with those!
(Nice)

[todd51]

From one old goat to another, those seven shots in the white bull are impressive

[myfriendis410]

I live in an area that requires the use of solid copper ammunition for hunting. I've been using the Barnes bullets with good results, except for dealing with copper fouling. A couple of my rifles need very little work to remove this buildup, but one (a Browning A-Bolt in 7mm r.m.) takes two hours of work with CR10 to get clean. The gun responds to thorough cleaning by shooting tight groups for about 25 rounds before opening up again. My patches look like the ones pictured but it takes over a dozen cycles of bore scrubbing with solvent followed by a patch to thoroughly remove the copper.

If you are getting an excessive amount of copper build up in your barrels you might trying cleaning it really well with the outters Foul out. Then running some tubbs final finish bullets down your tube to smooth out the roughness.

[gdmoody]

If I might suggest something.......Hodgdon powder has come out with a product called CFE 223. The CFE stands for Copper Fouling Eraser and it is designed to get rid of the copper fouling. I just looked at their website and they do offer loading data for the 22-250 but it is for a 52 grain Hornady A-max bullet, but 1 grain shouldn't make any difference in the load.

I bought a pound of it to try a load with .223 in my Wetherby rifle. The bore of that rifle looks a tremendous amount better than it did before I started using CFE 223. I also found that it is a good shooting powder (accuracy) as well as cleaning the bore. I am going to use it for loading all of my .223 and .308 ammo from now on.

Here is the Hodgdon page that tells about the powder: http://www.hodgdon.com/new_prod.html

[Indy Bob]

Originally Posted by cpttango30

If you are getting an excessive amount of copper build up in your barrels you might trying cleaning it really well with the outters Foul out. Then running some tubbs final finish bullets down your tube to smooth out the roughness.

Hello cpttango30,
I went to MidwayUSA and looked at the reviews on Tubbs Final Finish product. They were almost all 5 stars and a couple 4s .... all good reviews. Thanks for your suggestion.

If anyone has had bad results .... or suggestions for use......please reply, but so far the Tubbs product looks like a good suggestion.

Thanks,
Indy Bob.

[JLA]

I break all my barrels in with Tubbs. even if they are handlapped match barrels. 1/4 MOA results is hard to argue with..

And i use Montana Extreme Copper Solvent .50BMG Formula. Eats more copper than anything else ive tried.

[Bindernut]

And I'll be a mild naysayer to using lapping bullets like the Tubbs system to polish the bore.
Not because they don't work...I know they do and I've seen the results.
I haven't known any guys that have gotten better accuracy after lapping the barrel, but lapped barrels DO foul less quickly than a rough one.

I just can't bring myself to intentionally accelerate the wear on the rifling but using abrasive coated bullets. My thinking is that I'll wear it out soon enough by running regular ammo down the tube.
Someday I may get around to changing my thinking though...

[JLA]

think of the intentional accellerated wear over 50 rounds as slowing the wear down over the next couple thousand. Thats pretty much the way it works.

[jbmid1]

Keep in mind that an extremely fast round like the 22-250 will leave alittle more residue than most others.

[oneshot onekill]

Wait... Why are you trying to clean out all of the copper? Leave it in there! First, removing all of the copper exposes the rifling to faster wear. Second, the copper fills in some of the imperfections and smooths the bore. This is not some crazy rankings from a novice. Talk to Long-Range Tactical shooters and Snipers and they'll back me up. Don't be so quick to make that bore squeaky-clean after each range session. Let the bore get seasoned and broken-in. I, and many, many others, don't even clean our bolt guns until accuracy starts to fall off (often as many as 300-500 rounds). My bolt guns shoot 1/2MOA or better if I do my part.
Carbon fouling is something else. Clean the carbon from time to time if you're shooting with especially dirty powder. If my rifles have been sitting for more than a week or two I'll pull a bore-snake thru to wipe out the dust but that's about it.

[carver]

http://www.snipercountry.com/article...breakin_II.asp

Think of a car engine for a moment. Why do we use oil in the engine? To prevent metal-to-metal contact and reduce friction between two metal surfaces. Your barrel is no different from the engine. My instructions for barrel break-in were quite simple. Shoot 20 rounds (non-moly bullets) with no cleaning, as this will further burnish the barrel. Done! Now shoot and clean using your regular regimen of cleaning and if you have to use JB's or flitz type products, go very easy with them, or better yet avoid them. Never clean down to bare metal. Most of the cleaning products do a great job, don't be afraid to use a brush and go easy on the ammonia-based products for removing copper fouling. Basically don't let the ammonia-based products remain in the barrel for long lengths of time.

[al45lc]

I use the foaming copper removel products, with very good results and HALF the cleaning time.
As to lapping, by removing the microscopic 'burrs', the barrel induces less friction and theoretically will last LONGER due to lower heat cycling and friction.
Lapped barrels last longer and are easier to clean, a win-win.

[Raven18940]

I just run a bore snake through my barrel to clean the gunk out and then go shooting again.