Recently I listened to a program where someone was making the point that the American model of a constitutional republic was not biblical in that our laws are not God's laws. The discussion was mostly dealing with the concept of the seperation of church and state, and the idea that we are obligated to tolerate and give equal standing to all religions.
Furthermore, this person was advocating things like prayer in schools and the abolition of the protection of the legal right to engage in what the Bible would label immoral conduct, such as homosexuality. In other words the question of whether homosexuals should be allowed to serve in the military wouldn't even be open for discussion because those the Bible calls sodamites would have no legal standing.
Well this gave me something to think about. On one hand I'd love to live in a nation where everyone openly honored God. Not just any god, but the God of Abraham. It would also be great if homosexuality was non existent. Drunkenness, idolotry, and fornication? Sure, lets get rid of those too.
But to what extent does God require the governments of men to adopt His law for it's society? Of course we don't have to stone the prostitute but should fornication be against the law? Where do you draw the line? If we are a Judeo-Christian nation, by what standard do we rule? By the old mosaic law of the old testament, or by the Gospel of Jesus Christ that acknowledged man's sinful nature and inability to obey the law?
I was always under the impression that God intended for man to have free will, even if his choice was to sin. On the other hand we don't allow theft or murder. So it would seem that as a society we have laws against sins against man (except for adultery), but leave those that are strictly offenses against God, for Him to punish. It sounds good, but then we have had years of brainwashing. Is our system of justice an evil aberration or does God allow the government of man to tolerate some sins?
So what do you think? Should the civil governments of a Judeo-Christian culture rule by the law of God? Of course it is my belief that we will never see a truly righteous government until Christ establishes His Kingdom on earth, but until that time, is a government that tolerates the evils of our culture in disobedience and therefore cursed, or does God not expect the imperfect governments of man to rule the entire society by His standard?
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death!"
Last edited by RunningOnMT; 07-07-2012 at 05:25 PM..
This nation was founded by Christians, the government was designed around Christian principles, and the public education system was based on Christianity. But we had Jews here from the very beginning, and they made some EXTREME contributions to the success of the revolutionary war, so we did NOT make this a Christian nation, but a nation based upon freedom of religion, alowing anyone of any faith to live here in peace.
Then the atheists started pushing, dreaming up a lot of BS regarding the founders of this country, and bringing in outside documents to use in order to establish a "wall of separation between church and state" as a constitutional mandate, and using that non-existant mandate to force God out of the educational system, out of the court houses, and continue today to force God out of all government entities.
And now the Muslims are here, demanding their RIGHTS to follow all their mandates, forcing prayer rooms in public schools, convincing businesses to set up special financial arrangements based on Sharia law, and using our own laws against us.
Yes, ROMT, I would love to live in a nation ruled by God.
But I know I will not until Christ returns and sets up His 1000 year reign.
Come quickly, Lord Jesus!
Christ told me to arm myself. If you want me disarmed - - Molon Labe.
God gave us all free will. He provided us with the Ten Commandments, and the consequences of violating them.
But to what extent does God require the governments of men to adopt His law for it's society? Of course we don't have to stone the prostitute but should fornication be against the law? Where do you draw the line?
That's where free will enters the picture. Everyone has a choice.
We can choose which of his laws to live by, or to ignore.
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
As any individual with free will can do, I chose to add seven additional rules to help guide me, hopefully, to where I want to go in life, and death:
Rectitude..the wish to do the honorable thing, and the willingness to suffer the consequence of my decisions. Courage..the ability to confront fear in the face of pain, danger, uncertainty or intimidation.
Benevolence.. it's kind of like treating others in a manner like you would want to be treated, but taking it further than what's necessary.
Respect..my interpretation is, treat others with all due respect, until you find that respect you've given is misplaced.
Honesty..being honest with others, and with yourself, in all matters.
Honor.. to hold myself answerable for failing to adhere to my personal standards.
Loyalty..first and foremost, loyalty to myself by following the rules I've decided to live by. Loyal to my family and friends. Loyal to those who depend on my guidance.
I am a long time 'student' of Bushido. It's not a religion, it's a way of life. After looking it over for years, I chose to try and follow it as close as possible. Difficult.
Being imperfect, I give myself a once-over, often. It would be great to be able to lay on my deathbed and not have to say to myself..I wish I had..
That's not going to happen. There's a lot I would change about my past if I could. I can't, so I'll have to deal with whatever consequences come my way.
I don't know if any of this is applicable to the OP, but once I got started, I kept looking at myself, and decided to go with as honest answer as I could.
If it's an answer at all.
Firearms and Salt Water Fishing
Retired 42 Years LEO
as I see it, ALL societies are theocratic. Even those who claim they aren't. Properly understood a theocracy is not a society ruled by priests or pastors or a church. Theology is a way in which a man or body of people view the world.
All laws, customs, traditions, etc. are based on this.
In that sense, the Colonies in America were established as Christian societies (it was not created as a "nation" or "christian nation" as a whole. The states/colonies set up the kind of society they specifically wanted while using the Articles and later the Constitution as an agreement of certain delegated powers to a Federal government. Most of the original 13 colonies even had their own different established church, but that's another story). They were Calvinistic people who, to some degree or another, had a Christian worldview. From the Puritains of New England to the Anglicans of the Atlantic coast to the inland and backcountry Presbyterians (and Baptists, Methodiets, etc. etc). Their laws and customs by and large attempted to conform to a Biblical pattern based on how they viewed the world from a Christian persepective
As ampaterry said, a completely biblical society will never be established until Christ and the Great Commission is complete. (I tend to believe that the 1000 years is the time between the great commission and the Second coming, Christ is already reigning in heaven using his people to gradually but surely change the world and will return at the end of the "1000 years" when all is fulfilled.)
So what does this mean for us here and now. We should work in all areas for a truly Biblical society. Both in the heart and by extension reflected in our laws. 50 years ago, Sodomy was sin and unspeakable. It was twisted and considered a mental illness. (and it is) Even then though it was hard to enforce it except when done in public without violating people's right to privacy in their homes.
In a nutshell, you have to change the heart of the people, there has to be true revival in society. When you do that, you won't even have to worry about whether there is "Gay marriage" because sodomy WILL be illegal and most people will be sickened at the thought of it. What's in the heart will be reflected in law and action.
Last edited by Doug.38PR; 08-24-2012 at 01:32 AM..
The traditional definition of 'theocracy' is "...a form of government in which God or a deity is recognized as the supreme civil ruler, the God's or deity's laws being interpreted by the ecclesiastical authorities." (From Dictionary.com)
I will be most happy to live in that ultimate theocracy ruled by the Creator Himself at the end of what humanity understands as 'time'.
However, in the meanwhile, I have several problems with 'theocracy' in the definition above.
One: I fully am subject to and obey God - the Holy One of the Bible, the Creator and Sustainer of the Universe. (At least to the best of my rebellious and sinful nature.) I reject any other 'deity' or 'deities' of lesser stature.
Two: The interpretation of laws by ecclesiastical authorities is a problem for me. Christianity - from the Bible - teaches all believers are priests and therefore have no need for an intermediary between believers and Almighty God. Needless to say, I do not fully agree with many so-called 'ecclesiastical authorities'.
ROMT, the discussion on the radio was only partially correct. The U. S. was founded by largely Christian people. The basic laws of the U. S. were essentially based on the Ten Commandments. Murder, Theft, Adultery (yes, that was a crime at one time), Perjury, Swindling, Assault and so on are all derived from the Ten Commandments. Reading the rest of the Mosaic Law, one finds all manner of prohibitions on contract violations, misrepresentation of facts in contract, negligence and so forth.
It seems the further we move from those basic laws, the more depraved our society becomes. The 'adultery' thing, for instance; how many other crimes, violations of the public peace or 'social problems' derive from the practice of 'doing' anyone who stops long enough to be 'done'? Children out of wedlock, STDs, physical altercations and murder to name a few.
At the same time, one must realize a 'law' can only make a certain action punishable. A law will never change one's attitude.
Christianity is the result of this principle. Paul, in the 7th Chapter of Romans says the "Law" was to show mankind of the inability to live without sin. So, Christ died to pay the atonement and humanity now is forgiven - upon request and submission to Jesus Christ.
So far, the U. S. government has not managed to work that deal; so it is stuck with punitive laws. But, as pointed out years ago by Billy Graham, "If a sin becomes popular enough, it becomes legal."
I love this nation. I am quite happy with the U.S. Constiutution as the supreme law of the land. Would I accept a Christian theocracy, in place of what is now there? No. The Constitution has been in place for over 200 years.
A theocracy? Wasn't that a part of why we broke form England? The king is the figurehead of the Anglican Church, no?
The threat of theocracies, for this nation, is not of a Christian recipe. It is Mohammedanism, which as history points out time and again, has been spread by the sword, and not by peace.
I will never submit, or bow my knee, to any Mohammedan cleric, or their representative.