FFL Question - The Firearms Forum

steve4102 · 07-23-2012, 07:41 AM

For those of you with FFL I could use some clarification.

My gunsmith has told me that shipping a firearm for repair, or custom work through him requires no paper work or "Transfer" when returned back to me. He and my LGS say that the "Transfer" is not required as it is Not a Sale, it is a repair.

Now I am reading comments on another forum that anytime you ship though an FFL there must be a "transfer" and treated as a new sale.

Who is correct, my FFL or the internet commandos.

Iron Eagle · 07-23-2012, 07:46 AM

I'd say the FFL.

gunship · 07-23-2012, 08:07 AM

Why are you sending the firearm through a FFL. You can mail the firearm directly to the repair facility and they can mail it directly back to you without the FFL getting involved.

goofy · 07-23-2012, 08:15 AM

If I am sending a gun for repairs for a costumer the gun is logged into my wire bound repairs book. When the gun is returned to the costumer no 4473 is required.
If it is a pistol all I have to do is log in the costumers permit # that shoes it is on his permit.This is in NY and can not say what the laws are in other states.
Mike

goofy · 07-23-2012, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunship

Why are you sending the firearm through a FFL. You can mail the firearm directly to the repair facility and they can mail it directly back to you without the FFL getting involved.

Only long guns can be done like that .In NY a pistol HAS to be shipped thru a FFL.
I am not sure if it is like this in other states.
Mike

Alpo · 07-23-2012, 08:23 AM

Gunship, you must be very careful in your terms.

"Mail" means, to most people, the US Post Office.

You cannot mail a pistol. Period. Totally illegal. Steve cannot mail a pistol. I cannot mail a pistol.

Goofy, however, CAN mail a pistol. Why? He's got an FFL. If you've got an FFL, you can mail a pistol.

Now, if I UPS my pistol back to Ruger, for repair, UPS will want 75 to a hundred bucks. My FFL can mail it to Ruger in a "if it fits, it ships" box for 12. I pay my FFL 25 dollars to mail pistols for me. This gives him 13 bucks, more or less, for the great PITA that is logging it into his bound book, listing it as "sent for repairs", and driving to the post office.

Now, if it is a rifle or shotgun you are sending it for repair, yes, you can mail it. But don't go telling people they can mail a gun. A lot of the time that just ain't true.

Alpo · 07-23-2012, 08:26 AM

I have had guns mailed, by my FFL, to two different smiths for work. On both occasions, when they smith got in touch with me and said they were finished, I directed him to send them to me, not back to the FFL.

Both times they came to me.

steve4102 · 07-23-2012, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunship

Why are you sending the firearm through a FFL. You can mail the firearm directly to the repair facility and they can mail it directly back to you without the FFL getting involved.

I choose to use an FFL for handguns as it is cheaper. The "Legal" way to send a handgun for repairs UPS or FedEx is Next Day Air or Next Day Air Saver, = big bucks. It is illegal for a Non-FFL to ship a handgun any other way. My FFL on the other hand can Ship it USPS for less than $20, plus a small fee to him for his FFL and trouble.

goofy · 07-23-2012, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alpo

Gunship, you must be very careful in your terms.

"Mail" means, to most people, the US Post Office.

You cannot mail a pistol. Period. Totally illegal. Steve cannot mail a pistol. I cannot mail a pistol.

Goofy, however, CAN mail a pistol. Why? He's got an FFL. If you've got an FFL, you can mail a pistol.

Now, if I UPS my pistol back to Ruger, for repair, UPS will want 75 to a hundred bucks. My FFL can mail it to Ruger in a "if it fits, it ships" box for 12. I pay my FFL 25 dollars to mail pistols for me. This gives him 13 bucks, more or less, for the great PITA that is logging it into his bound book, listing it as "sent for repairs", and driving to the post office.

Now, if it is a rifle or shotgun you are sending it for repair, yes, you can mail it. But don't go telling people they can mail a gun. A lot of the time that just ain't true.

Thanks ALPO I should have clairafied US mail and UPS or fedex.
Mike

Hammerslagger · 07-23-2012, 09:49 AM

This is an interesting thread from a legalities point of view. I am not certain as to the technically correct answer; and suspect that one might find that different ATF offices might have different positions relative to the potential legality of what is described in post #7. When I was in the business (over 30 years) I observed that the ATF could (and did) take some unexpected positions on a variety of matters.

When a FFL takes custody of any modern firearm from another person, for business purposes, and that person leaves the licensed premises; then the FFL must log the gun into his/her records. If an inspection, adjustment, or repair is made, and the gun returned, while the delivering person waits, the log in was not necessary when I was a FFL, and I think such is still the case.

I suppose that, for example, Goofy's Gunshoppe could log a gun in as: "received from John Q Gunlover (address and driver license #) for shipment to: "Fix It or Melt It Gunsmith Services" FFL # 01-23-456-01-2K- 123xx.

The paperwork accompanying the gun to FIMI would then need to state that the shipping FFL was acting solely as shipping agent for subject firearm's owner (Mr. John Q. Gunlover) whose return shipping address and telephone # and driver license # were enclosed. I suppose that FIMI could and would then log the gun in as received from John Q Gunlover (with address, etc) via Goofy's Gunshoppe (address, and FFL#) acting solely as shipping agent for gun's owner.

Handled in the above way, it should be legal for FIMI to return the gun directly to Mr. Gunlover. Lacking the above procedure for logging by both FFL's; I do not see how FIMI could legally ship any modern firearm to a non FFL holder that they did not actually receive it from.

I can see how doing so could, at best, set a FFL up for serious ATF problems, unless the ATF has gone on record allowing receipt of a gun from a FFL and its subsequent shipment to a non FFL. I may be wrong; but I do not think that they have. They might not agree that the above described logging procedure would allow such a shipment to a non FFL.

Be careful; and you are less likely to be sorry.

Alpo · 07-23-2012, 10:16 AM

Even if, to insure that his own butt is adequately covered, the gunsmith returns the gun to the FFL that shipped it to him, there is still no "transfer". The FFL just has to give it back to the owner. No call-in. No 4473. No transfer.

The only thing bad about that, in this day and age, is the cost of the gas necessary to drive to the FFL. Mine is 8 miles away, which in my vehicle is a gallon of gas, so a round trip it two gallons, making it cost between 7 and 8 bucks to go pick up MY gun.

Hammerslagger · 07-23-2012, 10:52 AM

Post #11, comment.

As far as Federal Law is concerned a gun taken in for any kind of service may be returned to the person who delivered it to the FFL without doing the Form 4473 and associated checks. FL, where Alpo resides, is a very gun friendly state with no laws on the subject that I am aware of.

However, not all states are gun friendly, and some have some laws of their own on the subject. If I understand Goofy, NY is one of them. Michigan, where I was a FFL is another good example. Prior to 2000, there was no practical legal way for a FFL in MI to take in a handgun for service. MI law required the FFL to get a "Pistol Purchase Permit" to take the gun in, and for the owner to get another PPP and subsequent police "Safety Inspection" to get his own gun back. Crazy? Yes, so crazy that the law was ignored relative to gunsmiths. Once, I approached a gun friendly state senator about this crazy law, and was told to "leave sleeping dogs alone".

Dennis C · 07-23-2012, 02:10 PM

When I sent my Glock in for repair a few months back, I used a guy in town to send it in and he put a copy of his FFL in there with it. When they sent it back all I had to do was go pick it up from him without filling out any forms.

JLA · 07-23-2012, 09:35 PM

Hes right steve.

If you bring me a firearm for repair I can repair it and hand it back to you without even logging it in if its same day. I have to log it if it spends the night but I can release it back to you without a 4473 and a NICS check as long as im handing it back to the same person that dropped it off. Now if you send your wife to get it when you were the one that dropped it off, then id have to 4473 her and NICS her.

And regarding shipping.. You, as and individual, without and FFL, can arrange to ship directly to an FFL yourself, but you cannot have an FFL ship to you. And FFL can only ship to another FFL. Bottom line, the gun has to be shipped TO an FFL.

Make sense?

JLA · 07-23-2012, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunship

Why are you sending the firearm through a FFL. You can mail the firearm directly to the repair facility and they can mail it directly back to you without the FFL getting involved.

Only half true. You can ship your gun directly to the FFL licensed repair facility, but they can not ship it directly back to you, they have to ship it back to an FFL near you for transfer.

07-23-2012, 07:46 AM	#2
Iron Eagle Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Louisiana Posts: 659	Re: FFL Question I'd say the FFL.

07-23-2012, 08:07 AM	#3
gunship Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: New Jersey Posts: 34	Re: FFL Question Why are you sending the firearm through a FFL. You can mail the firearm directly to the repair facility and they can mail it directly back to you without the FFL getting involved.

07-23-2012, 08:15 AM	#4
goofy Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Contributor Posts: 2,025	Re: FFL Question If I am sending a gun for repairs for a costumer the gun is logged into my wire bound repairs book. When the gun is returned to the costumer no 4473 is required. If it is a pistol all I have to do is log in the costumers permit # that shoes it is on his permit.This is in NY and can not say what the laws are in other states. Mike

07-23-2012, 08:23 AM	#6
Alpo Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: NW Florida Posts: 8,667	Re: FFL Question Gunship, you must be very careful in your terms. "Mail" means, to most people, the US Post Office. You cannot mail a pistol. Period. Totally illegal. Steve cannot mail a pistol. I cannot mail a pistol. Goofy, however, CAN mail a pistol. Why? He's got an FFL. If you've got an FFL, you can mail a pistol. Now, if I UPS my pistol back to Ruger, for repair, UPS will want 75 to a hundred bucks. My FFL can mail it to Ruger in a "if it fits, it ships" box for 12. I pay my FFL 25 dollars to mail pistols for me. This gives him 13 bucks, more or less, for the great PITA that is logging it into his bound book, listing it as "sent for repairs", and driving to the post office. Now, if it is a rifle or shotgun you are sending it for repair, yes, you can mail it. But don't go telling people they can mail a gun. A lot of the time that just ain't true. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with catsup - George of Lod, Year of Our Lord 297 I always take precautions. Beware the Evil Bullet Fairies.

07-23-2012, 09:49 AM	#10
Hammerslagger Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,099	Re: FFL Question This is an interesting thread from a legalities point of view. I am not certain as to the technically correct answer; and suspect that one might find that different ATF offices might have different positions relative to the potential legality of what is described in post #7. When I was in the business (over 30 years) I observed that the ATF could (and did) take some unexpected positions on a variety of matters. When a FFL takes custody of any modern firearm from another person, for business purposes, and that person leaves the licensed premises; then the FFL must log the gun into his/her records. If an inspection, adjustment, or repair is made, and the gun returned, while the delivering person waits, the log in was not necessary when I was a FFL, and I think such is still the case. I suppose that, for example, Goofy's Gunshoppe could log a gun in as: "received from John Q Gunlover (address and driver license #) for shipment to: "Fix It or Melt It Gunsmith Services" FFL # 01-23-456-01-2K- 123xx. The paperwork accompanying the gun to FIMI would then need to state that the shipping FFL was acting solely as shipping agent for subject firearm's owner (Mr. John Q. Gunlover) whose return shipping address and telephone # and driver license # were enclosed. I suppose that FIMI could and would then log the gun in as received from John Q Gunlover (with address, etc) via Goofy's Gunshoppe (address, and FFL#) acting solely as shipping agent for gun's owner. Handled in the above way, it should be legal for FIMI to return the gun directly to Mr. Gunlover. Lacking the above procedure for logging by both FFL's; I do not see how FIMI could legally ship any modern firearm to a non FFL holder that they did not actually receive it from. I can see how doing so could, at best, set a FFL up for serious ATF problems, unless the ATF has gone on record allowing receipt of a gun from a FFL and its subsequent shipment to a non FFL. I may be wrong; but I do not think that they have. They might not agree that the above described logging procedure would allow such a shipment to a non FFL. Be careful; and you are less likely to be sorry.

07-23-2012, 07:41 AM	#1
steve4102 Former Guest Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Minnesota Contributor Posts: 2,760	FFL Question For those of you with FFL I could use some clarification. My gunsmith has told me that shipping a firearm for repair, or custom work through him requires no paper work or "Transfer" when returned back to me. He and my LGS say that the "Transfer" is not required as it is Not a Sale, it is a repair. Now I am reading comments on another forum that anytime you ship though an FFL there must be a "transfer" and treated as a new sale. Who is correct, my FFL or the internet commandos. -->

07-23-2012, 08:26 AM	#7
Alpo Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: NW Florida Posts: 8,667	Re: FFL Question I have had guns mailed, by my FFL, to two different smiths for work. On both occasions, when they smith got in touch with me and said they were finished, I directed him to send them to me, not back to the FFL. Both times they came to me. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with catsup - George of Lod, Year of Our Lord 297 I always take precautions. Beware the Evil Bullet Fairies.

07-23-2012, 10:16 AM	#11
Alpo Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: NW Florida Posts: 8,667	Re: FFL Question Even if, to insure that his own butt is adequately covered, the gunsmith returns the gun to the FFL that shipped it to him, there is still no "transfer". The FFL just has to give it back to the owner. No call-in. No 4473. No transfer. The only thing bad about that, in this day and age, is the cost of the gas necessary to drive to the FFL. Mine is 8 miles away, which in my vehicle is a gallon of gas, so a round trip it two gallons, making it cost between 7 and 8 bucks to go pick up MY gun. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with catsup - George of Lod, Year of Our Lord 297 I always take precautions. Beware the Evil Bullet Fairies.

07-23-2012, 10:52 AM	#12
Hammerslagger Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,099	Re: FFL Question Post #11, comment. As far as Federal Law is concerned a gun taken in for any kind of service may be returned to the person who delivered it to the FFL without doing the Form 4473 and associated checks. FL, where Alpo resides, is a very gun friendly state with no laws on the subject that I am aware of. However, not all states are gun friendly, and some have some laws of their own on the subject. If I understand Goofy, NY is one of them. Michigan, where I was a FFL is another good example. Prior to 2000, there was no practical legal way for a FFL in MI to take in a handgun for service. MI law required the FFL to get a "Pistol Purchase Permit" to take the gun in, and for the owner to get another PPP and subsequent police "Safety Inspection" to get his own gun back. Crazy? Yes, so crazy that the law was ignored relative to gunsmiths. Once, I approached a gun friendly state senator about this crazy law, and was told to "leave sleeping dogs alone". Last edited by Hammerslagger; 07-23-2012 at 10:53 AM.. Reason: typos

07-23-2012, 02:10 PM	#13
Dennis C Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: South Dakota Posts: 789	Re: FFL Question When I sent my Glock in for repair a few months back, I used a guy in town to send it in and he put a copy of his FFL in there with it. When they sent it back all I had to do was go pick it up from him without filling out any forms. __________________ "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms. . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." - Thomas Jefferson

07-23-2012, 09:35 PM	#14
JLA TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Heart Of Texas Contributor Posts: 17,328	Re: FFL Question Hes right steve. If you bring me a firearm for repair I can repair it and hand it back to you without even logging it in if its same day. I have to log it if it spends the night but I can release it back to you without a 4473 and a NICS check as long as im handing it back to the same person that dropped it off. Now if you send your wife to get it when you were the one that dropped it off, then id have to 4473 her and NICS her. And regarding shipping.. You, as and individual, without and FFL, can arrange to ship directly to an FFL yourself, but you cannot have an FFL ship to you. And FFL can only ship to another FFL. Bottom line, the gun has to be shipped TO an FFL. Make sense? __________________ It takes 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, and 3 for proper trigger squeeze. The latest caliber or gear is no substitute for experience and skill. Rifles and cartridges don't make hits -- shooters do. Fact of life: After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF!