Jap rifle help needed

[DarryH]

I have a Jap that is a mystery.
Type 38 Rifle in 6.5 caliber

The ONLY marking on this gun is on the receiver ring.
Centered between the vent holes are a set of Japanese characters.

There is no mum, and it has not been removed.
There are ZERO markings anywhere else.
I have checked the wood, inside and out,
I have taken metal parts off, and ZERO markings.
No markings on the side of the receiver,

the gun is NOT a last ditch.
made very well ,rifled, blued, steel buttplate, original sight

I have NEVER seen one of these with only the one marking.
Any input guys ??

Thanks
Good Shootin!!
DarryH
Nebraska

[45Auto]

It could be some sort of trainer. I'd have to see some images, otherwise this is only guess work.

[DarryH]

I have seen training rifles, both for youths and adults.
This has NO traits of being a training or a drill rifle.
It is built like the front line guns.

I was curiois how the Japanses marked guns they made for export.
The cocking piece still is the chrysanthemum type, and the characters
on the receiver ring are Japanese.

The rest is a mystery.

I have been trying to locate a serious collector that might have more info.
So far, I have not found one.

Thanks
Good Shootin!!
DarryH

[deadin]

No "serious" collector is going to offer an opinion without being able to actually "see" the rifle. (Be it in person or by clear detailed pictures.)
To do otherwise would be to put their reputation on the line.

[DarryH]

I do have pictures, but do not know how to post them. I can e-mail them.
Right now, I am on my lap-top. All my pics are on my home computer.
I still need to know who to contact.
I am NO newby. I have been collecting guns for over 35 years.
I prefer military made 1945 and earlier.
I also do black powder, air guns, and cowboy guns.
I also enjoy the "black guns" but my first love is the old stuff.
THe rarest gun I have owned???? probably my Japanese "Baby" Model 1904 Nambu
Original holster & cleaning rod. Caliber 7mm Nambu.
I have photobucket also, but I do struggle with the computer.
I can shoot very well, but typeing is tedious for me.
Thanks
Good Shootin!!
DarryH
Nebraska

[todd51]

Darry I don't have any info about your rifle but there is a forum "gunboards.com" that has a Japanese Collector's Board as one of their sub forums. Maybe you could find some help there also. Frank Allen put out a book titled "The Type 38 Arisaka" if you could find a copy it may provide some answers.

[Jim K]

No one else is going to be able to provide answers without pictures. At a minimum, the top and left side of the receiver (with clear pictures of the markings), pictures of both sides of the receiver area, including the trigger guard and floorplate, and overall pictures of both sides.

If the pictures are in the pictures files on your computer, it is easy to upload them to this site. Hit GO ADVANCED, then MANAGE ATTACHMENTS, then browse your picture file to select the picture you want to post and upload it. There is a limit on the number of pictures you can attach to one post, so you might have to do it several times.

Jim

[gunboat]

Might be a type 30 -- Italian made with carcano reciever - rifle made for the japanese navy -
google it -- At least i think it was designated type 30 -- tough to get old -

[CHW2021]

I have a similar issue with a sportered m99, there are only the numbers and arsenal stamps on the left side of the receiver. Photos would help, in my case I feel sure that the markings were removed before the gunsmith blued the entire rifle.

[deadin]

IIRC The Type 30 is also known as the"Hook Safety". The Carcano is called the Type I.

[Jim K]

The Type I has no markings on the receiver and no markings at all in Japanese. The Type 30 receiver has the "mum", three crossways bars and a + sign, "three zero" in Japanese, plus the symbols for "year type" and also the arsenal and serial number on the left side.

Jim

[DarryH]

try a pic
this is the ONLY marking anywhere on the gun.
the left side is blank.
there are NO signs of anything being scrubbed.
it is NOT Italian made, it is NOT a "hook saftey"
HELP!

[gunboat]

I stand corrected on the carcano type --- As I said, tough to get old-

[deadin]

I think you are going to find that what you have is a training rifle.
Some of these were converted from condemned service rifles and some were built from scratch. As they were not part of the Imperial Armed Forces, they did not qualify to have the "Mum". The ideograms on it will probably translate to a school somewhere.
On important thing is that even though they may chamber a service cartridge, they are totally unsafe to fire. They were intended for blanks only...

[Jim K]

I know you don't want to accept it, but the marking says "Izawa Type" and is a typical "training rifle" mark, and the bolt has an odd look. Pictures of the bolt, the rest of the receiver and the trigger guard/floorplate would probably show differences from "real" rifles.

Remove the barrelled action from the stock and examine it closely. You might find that the barrel is a smooth piece of steel tubing (they used the same material used to make steering columns for autos) threaded into the chamber part. The chamber areas might be a separate piece or cast as part of the receiver.

Jim

[DarryH]

Thanks for all the input.

After going over all the information, I would agree that this is a training rifle.
The markings are the best proof, along with the lack of other markings or the
mum. I ,also took a second really good luck, and realized I missed one obvious
difference. The swivels are light weight, more like a heavy duty wire.
The barrel is a real barrel, but after I cleaned it out, it is one that probably would have been condemned. You can see the rifling, but the bore is worn, pitted,
and very dark, and the muzzle will accept an entire 6.5 bullet.
It is not counterbored, so it is very well used.

I have seen other training rifles, but many had wood butplates, colored bands on the stock, tubes for barrels, welded bolts, holes drilled in chambers, etc.
I was not sure about this one, mainly because I could see a rifled bore.

I appreciate all the help.
Now I have to find a buyer for a training rifle!

[Jim K]

There is a mild collector interest in those training rifles and there is a fairly wide variety since apparently many companies made them. I have three and all are different.

Jim

[DarryH]

one reason I did not think this was a trainer, the floorplate was the type that releases when you push the buton inside the front of the trigger guard.
Most guns MADE as trainers, did not have this button.
PLus the real barrel that is rifled.

Now I have to wonder why and/or when this gun was condemned to be a trainer.

I would have to say it did not pass inspection at the factory.
I can find NO signs of anything being scrubbed, no mum, no numbers on ANY
parts, but there is a 2 digit number burned into the stock on one side near the muzle. It DOES appear to have been fired....a lot!!!!
The rifleing is well worn, as is the muzle end.

Possible SOME firing guns were used in the training???????

I have looked at a LOT of trainers at shows, and have spent a couple days viewing a lot on-line. They do differ a lot, and some are marked with numbers and have the mum.

It looks like one could spend some time collecting Japanese training rifles.
By the way, I apologize if using the word "Jap" has offended anyone.
I do not use it out of disrespect, but growing up, I have always heard the old boys use the short version of Japanese. I should probably change with the times.

Thanks for all the input
Good Shootin!!
Happy New Year,
and please write and call all your representatives and elected officials
and ask them to support law abiding gun owners. NO new regulations that do no good in stopping criminals.
Tell them YES we need to spend a lot more time and money dealing
with mental health.

DarryH
Nebraska

[Fatstrat]

After consulting my reference book, "Military Rifles of Japan" by Fred Honeycutt. It appears to me that you have a typical "Izawa Type" training rifle. Which should have an unrifled barrel. Other than your insistence that it does have a rifled barrel, everything else appears in order.
The Japanese did use some firing decommissioned T-38 rifles as training rifles. These were typically stamped w/a series 000's over the MUM to signify release from military service.
One aspect that Japanese Military weapons collectors marvel at and accept is that while there are some general guidelines, nothing appears to be absolute. Oddball variations that appear to be original (to period at least) fairly regularly pop up.
If your training rifle has a rifled bore, it may be possible that it is a period repair that used a worn out rifle barrel.
It's been about 10 years since I was active in the Japanese military rifle collecting field. But at that time, the Forum on Gunboards.com was IMO the best on the internet. With Fred Honeycutt himself a member. I'm sure that many discoveries have come along since I was active. So I would suggest that post your pics & questions there to get as up to date as possible answer. If indeed you have something different, I'm sure they would love to see & discuss it.

[Jim K]

Hi, DarryH,

In spite of the rifled barrel, I don't think that rifle was a condemned service rifle. I would still like to see pictures of the bolt and better pictures of the receiver, but iI think it was made as a training rifle. The shape of the receiver is wrong for any of the service rifles.

I think you are not considering that the barrel may have been fired on its original receiver, but a scrap barrel could have been used on a cast receiver for a trainer that was not to be fired at all except with blanks.

I would very much like to see pictures of the bolt and also whether the receiver tangs are separate or made in one piece with the receiver.

FWIW, I have three of those training rifles, and all have the floor plate release just like the regular Type 31.

Jim

[45Auto]

In Honeycutt's book, there is mention of a few trainers and otherwise condemed rifles that were retrofitted at the end of the war to shoot ball ammo. One of a group of last ditch items made up for the expected invassion of the home islands. From the one picture, above, I don't think this trainer is one of those. However, as mentioned, anything is possible.

[Fatstrat]

Originally Posted by 45Auto

In Honeycutt's book, there is mention of a few trainers and otherwise condemed rifles that were retrofitted at the end of the war to shoot ball ammo. One of a group of last ditch items made up for the expected invassion of the home islands. From the one picture, above, I don't think this trainer is one of those. However, as mentioned, anything is possible.

Those would be the decommissioned T-38's w/000's on the MUM. I almost mentioned them in my previous post. But since not conducive to original content, didn't. Many "school" T-38's were reportedly found on late war battlefields. Even in well used/worn out condition, they were better guns than the Last Ditch T-99. And on the mainland, the Japanese were preparing to fend off an Allied invasion w/many people armed w/sharp sticks.

[Fatstrat]

Originally Posted by Jim K

Hi, DarryH,

In spite of the rifled barrel, I don't think that rifle was a condemned service rifle. I would still like to see pictures of the bolt and better pictures of the receiver, but iI think it was made as a training rifle. The shape of the receiver is wrong for any of the service rifles.

I think you are not considering that the barrel may have been fired on its original receiver, but a scrap barrel could have been used on a cast receiver for a trainer that was not to be fired at all except with blanks.

I would very much like to see pictures of the bolt and also whether the receiver tangs are separate or made in one piece with the receiver.

FWIW, I have three of those training rifles, and all have the floor plate release just like the regular Type 31.

Jim

I'm curious about the u shaped chunk out of the top of the bolt in pics of his gun. Does yours have that? Looks "un-natural" to me.

[PMK]

Plobabry tlaining lifre. I aglee.

[Jim K]

I asked about that "cut" in the bolt and for pictures of the bolt. The OP has not responded yet.

PMK, that isn't really funny, mainly because the Japanese have trouble with the "L" sound, not the "R".

Jim