What is it?

[jrz_dad]

I have what appears to be a cheap copy of an old colt top break pistol. the only markings are:

Barrel: "for 38 W.C.F Cartridge"
frame/barrel: "Belgum"
Frame: Serial number of 1441

Pics are at: http://personalpages.tds.net/~jrvaughn/gun/

So, can anyone tell me:

1) what this is?
2) any value of it

the gun is in TERRIBLE shape - the cylinder will NOT lock up when cocked; the hinge pin is obviously loose cuz this thing flexes and rattles when moving it; its NOT SAFE to use unless you use it as a club....

I got this from the in laws...they got it from family during WWII (one of them brought it back but they don't have any details about it)...

Can ya help me out here fellows?

[RJay]

It is a Belgium copy of a S&W, made in the late 1890's until the early 1900's ( then they switched to copying the solid frame revolvers). Made by the boat load ( literally, James K. informed me that many times the entire ships manifest was nothing but Belgium guns). They sold for 5 to 6 dollars when Colts and S&W were selling for 13 to 15 dollars. They were also discounted in many of the mail order catalogs ( Such as Sears and Roebucks) even more. The only real value is as a family heirloom ( if I were you I would smile at the " war time bring back" story ). Value, in the condition you described, maybe 25 to 30 dollars as a gun smith special ( for parts ), maybe. Use your google fu and research Belgium firearm markings. Many times by comparing the markings you can come with in a few years of birth. My computer was wiped out a while back and I lost all my sites, but they are there.

[SARGE7402]

During WWI Great Britian contracted with a spanish firm to make copies of the S&W Double Action Top Break in 45 Webley. Understand they made several thousand.

I'd have the barrel slugged and see what the bore diameter is. If it's closer to .45 than .40 I'd say you may have a limited issue gun from WWI

[hrf]

Originally Posted by SARGE7402

During WWI Great Britian contracted with a spanish firm to make copies of the S&W Double Action Top Break in 45 Webley. Understand they made several thousand.

I'd have the barrel slugged and see what the bore diameter is. If it's closer to .45 than .40 I'd say you may have a limited issue gun from WWI

Sarge, his gun is marked "Belgium" and "for .38 W.C.F" (.38-40).

The Spanish contract guns that were accepted have British Military markings, and the many that were rejected have British commercial proofs:

http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.c...5#reply-108941

[jrz_dad]

Thanks rjay, sarge and hrf...I will do a bit of research on that info and see what I come up with...I kinda suspected I had a nice paperweight with this one...looks like its gonna see more life as a parts donor...Thanks again!! J

[rhmc24]

All the info above is more or less correct & I will add a few facts. Called a copy of a Smith & Wesson, actually about the only resemblance those knock-offs have to a S&W is the top break design. Internal mechanisms entirely different. There must be a dozen different makes of these S&W 'copies' all similar but all different in various details.

They were being imported into the US in the 1930s. As a kid I used to get a flyer from J.L. Galef (Galef's Go Getters) cheap guns and shooter stuff. I lusted after .44 cal top breaks they offered for $4.95.

I had one of the clones that was well made, good fit and finish, but with a mechanism simplified like the older H&R type that locks the cylinder only when the trigger is back.

Yours if .38 WCF is the only one I have ever heard of in that caliber. All I know of are in .44 cal or British .455.

[jrz_dad]

Thanks RHMC!!!

wonder if that 38 WCF might increase the value of it...maybe its now worth what it sold for orignally?...lol

I appreciate the info - been doing some research as was recommended - cant find anything in this particular caliber as you stated but finding lots in the larger caliber...

The search continues!....

[jrz_dad]

for what its worth, I did find additional proof markings on the gun...the pic links show them as clearly as I can get them...dunno if this makes any difference in your earlier determinations on this gun but maybe these will help clarify them better (?)..

here ya go!!...

these proofs are on the barrel near the hinge pin:
http://personalpages.tds.net/~jrvaug...oof-barrel.jpg

this one is on the cylinder:
http://personalpages.tds.net/~jrvaug...proof-cyl1.jpg

as is this one:
http://personalpages.tds.net/~jrvaug...proof-cyl2.jpg

and one more on the cylinder:
http://personalpages.tds.net/~jrvaug...proof-cyl3.jpg

this final one is on this inside of the frame under the cylinder:
http://personalpages.tds.net/~jrvaug...roof-frame.jpg

lastly just below the serial number, there is another marking like what is one the barrel - the "P" with the STAR over it...

does any of this help clarify things folks? Thanks again for all your help!!

J

[hrf]

The ELG in oval with crown on top is the expected post-1892 Liege, Belgium proof mark.

The other marks are just inspection and workmen's marks.

[rhmc24]

Pseudo-S&W clones in good condition are seen at $200-250 on the auctions. I doubt caliber makes any difference, especially in the condition you describe of yours. I would see it as a candidate for a shadow box on the wall.

I have mused that a collection of big European top-breaks would make an interesting display - then I wonder if anyone else would be interested.

[whirley]

sounds like the original Saturday night $2 pistol the progressives keep ranting about!

[hrf]

While looking for something else, I noticed a .44-40 example with same grips logo shown here (scroll way down):

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge...oulin%20gb.htm

But I have a problem reading the grips monogram as "SJ&D"...

[45Auto]

For what it's worth, I fixed up one of these in 44-40 cal. Then I fired it with full black power loads. It worked and it was still tight after 20 + rounds.

I have also seen examples of these big clunkers which looked the same at first but were made by different Belgian firms.