Webley Mark I - The Firearms Forum

Ken W · 08-07-2012, 06:37 PM

I discovered a really looking Webley Mark I today. I created a thread about it in the "buy/sale/trade" section. No way in hell I can afford $1,000 but I figure someone might. Certainly wish I could have taken it home though.

Personally I like to hear opinions from anyone about what they think of it and when it might have been made.

There's a lot of pictures in the sale thread that I took.

hrf · 08-08-2012, 06:43 AM

Not a "steal" at that price. 90% in USA have had the cylinder shaved for use with 45ACP in half-moon clips, and the Mark 1 was an 1880s black powder gun, not designed for the higher pressure of 45 Auto and jacketed bullets.

soundguy · 08-08-2012, 08:09 AM

i've been thinking about a webley.. but had heard about the 45acp shaving for headspace. any way to tell by looking at them.. many sellers at shows are clueless .. and I don't usually have a micrometer with me...

Ken W · 08-08-2012, 08:11 AM

Yeah, I know it's not exactly a bargain, hence why I'll never have it. It would have to be less than half of that for me to be able to afford it.

This one supposedly is still in the original .455 caliber. Is there any way to determine the exact manufacture date? Where all of the Mark I pre-1899? If so that will make any transaction much easier with no need of paperwork.

soundguy · 08-08-2012, 08:23 AM

anyone still making hte .455 ? perhaps prvi/pmi/pmc/ppu?

Ken W · 08-08-2012, 08:24 AM

Seems that the thread I created in the for sale section has been deleted. Didn't notice that you're not supposed to have "commercial" ads.

Edit: It's just as well since I no longer advise purchasing this. For more info see newer response on page 2 of this thread.

Here's all the rest of the pictures:

hrf · 08-08-2012, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soundguy

i've been thinking about a webley.. but had heard about the 45acp shaving for headspace. any way to tell by looking at them.. many sellers at shows are clueless .. and I don't usually have a micrometer with me...

The excess headspace visible in the side view indicates the cylinder has been shaved, and an unshaved cylinder will still have factory markings on the face as this one does (2nd pic):

http://www.gunsamerica.com/930262140...5_Cylinder.htm

soundguy · 08-08-2012, 08:38 AM

ahh, so there would be a couple proofs on an un-shaved one.

question.

would it be possible to conver one back to .455 by merely repalcing the cylinder? or are there other changes made as well?

thanks

Ken W · 08-08-2012, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soundguy

anyone still making hte .455 ? perhaps prvi/pmi/pmc/ppu?

One company is still making them for sure , as far as I can find anyway, is Fiocchi. They're listed as 455 webley MK-II ammo. Hornady did but not certain if they still do. The ammo is supposed to be very low powered but I would definitely keep in mind that the original Webely revolvers used black powder rounds so it might be best advised to hand load. I'm no authority on this of coarse. They might be fine, just not sure.

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/c....aspx?a=606389

hrf · 08-08-2012, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soundguy

ahh, so there would be a couple proofs on an un-shaved one.

question.

would it be possible to conver one back to .455 by merely repalcing the cylinder? or are there other changes made as well?

thanks

Sure, but hard to find and not cheap (note price of one I linked)

deadin · 08-08-2012, 08:44 AM

If you could find an original Mk1 cylinder, that would do it. But, then all you would have is a mismatched gun. (The cylinder is also numbered.)

Ken W · 08-08-2012, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hrf

The excess headspace visible in the side view indicates the cylinder has been shaved, and an unshaved cylinder will still have factory markings on the face as this one does (2nd pic):

http://www.gunsamerica.com/930262140...5_Cylinder.htm

Oh crap, I didn't know that. So this one has been altered. That's a shame. The guy at the shop is no expert in the least either. I'll have to inform him that it has been changed.

Ken W · 08-08-2012, 08:51 AM

Was this the case right from the very first ones? I see that there is no serial number on the cylinder that I took pictures. That's a damn shame if so. Otherwise it's in such great shape. Why did people have to always alter things? Grrrrr.

Ken W · 08-08-2012, 08:56 AM

Looks like the bigger screw, just under the barrel, is probably a replacement too. Look different than all of the others. I just looked at a bunch of pictures of other Mark I's and they show a rounded screw head on them.

soundguy · 08-08-2012, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken W

Oh crap, I didn't know that. So this one has been altered. That's a shame. The guy at the shop is no expert in the least either. I'll have to inform him that it has been changed.

see.. that's what I've run up against at shows. i knew people were headspacing htem for 45acp and it was common.. but the gus at the shows and shops.. you cna't trust them to know what they are selling..

Ken W · 08-08-2012, 09:14 AM

Yeah, that sucks. You practically have to carry a veritable encyclopedia of information and pictures with you along with a box full of tools.

soundguy · 08-08-2012, 09:18 AM

yep.. already as it is i carry a bore light and a loop to see proofs and numbers.. plus my atf 5300 publication to check cr status and my crffl. starts getting tedius.

deadin · 08-08-2012, 10:21 AM

Now, after seeing the other pictures, I'm not as sure about the serial number being on the cylinder face of Webleys.

n I may be thinking of the .455 S&Ws

The next question is if a MkVI cylinder is asking $175.00, what would a MkI bring? (They are different and the MkI's are really scarce.) Would it add 2 or 300 to the value? I have no idea....

Added: Just remembered.... The serial number on the cylinder (at least on later Mks) is around the outside of the cylinder at the back edge. When the cylinder had been milled about the upper portion of this number is lost.
(I noticed that the pictures shown have carefully(?) avoided showing this section of the cylinder.)

soundguy · 08-08-2012, 10:27 AM

i did see some proofs on the face of a few cyls in some pics...

jjmitchell60 · 08-08-2012, 10:56 AM

hrf nailed the ammo as to 455. I order it for a customer from time to time and trust me, NOT CHEAP AT ALL!!!! Te best is to buy a mold, cast your own bullets, buy brass, and load your own. Much cheaper that way. Starline was carrying the brass.

As stated, where that one was shaved, value way high and safety is an issue. Replaceing cylinder only devalues it more or at least keeps it low as the shaving of the cylinder. I see them pop up at shows from time to time unshaved and in very good condition for in the $800 range and that is dealers tables at that.

hrf · 08-08-2012, 11:41 AM

Incidently, the oversized "broad arrow" on top strap and N on hump behind the hammer on one shown identify it as one issued to the Royal Navy.

Jim K · 08-08-2012, 12:35 PM

The revolver in the OP's pictures has been converted to use .45 ACP with half-moon clips or .45 Auto-Rim. As such, it is not, IMHO, worth $1000; more like $750.

For anyone owning such a gun, I STRONGLY recommend NOT firing full charge loads in either in that gun. For shooting, I suggest using .45 AR if possible, then using a load that won't exceed 12,000 psi. .455 or cases made from .45 Colt will give excess headspace.

That Mk I still has the recoil shield made as part of the frame; they changed to the dovetail type later in production. The military proof and inspection marks and the broad arrows indicate that was a military gun and as hrf says, one issued to the Royal Navy or Marines. Mine (#805) is a civilian gun with TWO sets of proof marks, the original Birmingham marks and a set of later London marks. (I don't know why; it was not converted and is still in .455.)

As others have noted, the cylinder retaining screw is not original. It should be a large head screw with a wide coin-type slot and the threads under the head.

Jim

Ken W · 08-08-2012, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim K

.....That Mk I still has the recoil shield made as part of the frame; they changed to the dovetail type later in production. The military proof and inspection marks and the broad arrows indicate that was a military gun and as hrf says, one issued to the Royal Navy or Marines.
Jim

So it's one of the original ones then? That's makes it a double shame that it has been altered. Wonder how many are actually left that are all original?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim K

The revolver in the OP's pictures has been converted to use .45 ACP with half-moon clips or .45 Auto-Rim. As such, it is not, IMHO, worth $1000; more like $750.

I'd have to agree. Shame, it probably would have fetched the guy a decent price if it hadn't had the cylinder messed with. Not that $750 is chump change.

Jim K · 08-08-2012, 06:53 PM

FWIW, here is a quick way to tell if a Webley cylinder has been shaved. If a dime won't fit or won't fit easily easily between the cylinder and the recoil shield, the gun is in the original .455. If a quarter will fit, the cylinder has been shaved.

Jim

45Auto · 08-08-2012, 09:02 PM

That MKI is also a reblue. Not a bad job at all, but not original and cuts down on value.

Ammo: Some years ago, I bought a .455 hollow base mold. It was not cheap but it's the only way to go if you want affordable and accurate ammo. For the MK I, black powder works best, it gives an impressive boom and the old boy hits the target, can't ask for more.

08-07-2012, 06:37 PM	#1
Ken W V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Asheville, NC Posts: 346	Webley Mark I I discovered a really looking Webley Mark I today. I created a thread about it in the "buy/sale/trade" section. No way in hell I can afford $1,000 but I figure someone might. Certainly wish I could have taken it home though. Personally I like to hear opinions from anyone about what they think of it and when it might have been made. There's a lot of pictures in the sale thread that I took. __________________ We need to keep the damn politics out of our 2nd Amendment rights. They just create a means to our own destruction by making us turn on each other while obfuscating the truth and logic of the matter at hand. -->

08-08-2012, 06:43 AM	#2
hrf Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 2,308	Re: Webley Mark I Not a "steal" at that price. 90% in USA have had the cylinder shaved for use with 45ACP in half-moon clips, and the Mark 1 was an 1880s black powder gun, not designed for the higher pressure of 45 Auto and jacketed bullets.

08-08-2012, 08:09 AM	#3
soundguy Advanced Senior Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: florida Contributor Posts: 4,736	Re: Webley Mark I i've been thinking about a webley.. but had heard about the 45acp shaving for headspace. any way to tell by looking at them.. many sellers at shows are clueless .. and I don't usually have a micrometer with me...

08-08-2012, 08:11 AM	#4
Ken W V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Asheville, NC Posts: 346	Re: Webley Mark I Yeah, I know it's not exactly a bargain, hence why I'll never have it. It would have to be less than half of that for me to be able to afford it. This one supposedly is still in the original .455 caliber. Is there any way to determine the exact manufacture date? Where all of the Mark I pre-1899? If so that will make any transaction much easier with no need of paperwork. __________________ We need to keep the damn politics out of our 2nd Amendment rights. They just create a means to our own destruction by making us turn on each other while obfuscating the truth and logic of the matter at hand.

08-08-2012, 08:23 AM	#5
soundguy Advanced Senior Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: florida Contributor Posts: 4,736	Re: Webley Mark I anyone still making hte .455 ? perhaps prvi/pmi/pmc/ppu?

08-08-2012, 08:24 AM	#6
Ken W V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Asheville, NC Posts: 346	Re: Webley Mark I Seems that the thread I created in the for sale section has been deleted. Didn't notice that you're not supposed to have "commercial" ads. Edit: It's just as well since I no longer advise purchasing this. For more info see newer response on page 2 of this thread. Here's all the rest of the pictures: __________________ We need to keep the damn politics out of our 2nd Amendment rights. They just create a means to our own destruction by making us turn on each other while obfuscating the truth and logic of the matter at hand. Last edited by Ken W; 08-09-2012 at 02:30 PM..

08-08-2012, 08:38 AM	#8
soundguy Advanced Senior Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: florida Contributor Posts: 4,736	Re: Webley Mark I ahh, so there would be a couple proofs on an un-shaved one. question. would it be possible to conver one back to .455 by merely repalcing the cylinder? or are there other changes made as well? thanks

08-08-2012, 08:44 AM	#11
deadin Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 867	Re: Webley Mark I If you could find an original Mk1 cylinder, that would do it. But, then all you would have is a mismatched gun. (The cylinder is also numbered.)

08-08-2012, 08:51 AM	#13
Ken W V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Asheville, NC Posts: 346	Re: Webley Mark I Was this the case right from the very first ones? I see that there is no serial number on the cylinder that I took pictures. That's a damn shame if so. Otherwise it's in such great shape. Why did people have to always alter things? Grrrrr. __________________ We need to keep the damn politics out of our 2nd Amendment rights. They just create a means to our own destruction by making us turn on each other while obfuscating the truth and logic of the matter at hand.

08-08-2012, 08:56 AM	#14
Ken W V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Asheville, NC Posts: 346	Re: Webley Mark I Looks like the bigger screw, just under the barrel, is probably a replacement too. Look different than all of the others. I just looked at a bunch of pictures of other Mark I's and they show a rounded screw head on them. __________________ We need to keep the damn politics out of our 2nd Amendment rights. They just create a means to our own destruction by making us turn on each other while obfuscating the truth and logic of the matter at hand.

08-08-2012, 09:14 AM	#16
Ken W V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Asheville, NC Posts: 346	Re: Webley Mark I Yeah, that sucks. You practically have to carry a veritable encyclopedia of information and pictures with you along with a box full of tools. __________________ We need to keep the damn politics out of our 2nd Amendment rights. They just create a means to our own destruction by making us turn on each other while obfuscating the truth and logic of the matter at hand.

08-08-2012, 09:18 AM	#17
soundguy Advanced Senior Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: florida Contributor Posts: 4,736	Re: Webley Mark I yep.. already as it is i carry a bore light and a loop to see proofs and numbers.. plus my atf 5300 publication to check cr status and my crffl. starts getting tedius.

08-08-2012, 10:21 AM	#18
deadin Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 867	Re: Webley Mark I Now, after seeing the other pictures, I'm not as sure about the serial number being on the cylinder face of Webleys.n I may be thinking of the .455 S&Ws The next question is if a MkVI cylinder is asking $175.00, what would a MkI bring? (They are different and the MkI's are really scarce.) Would it add 2 or 300 to the value? I have no idea.... Added: Just remembered.... The serial number on the cylinder (at least on later Mks) is around the outside of the cylinder at the back edge. When the cylinder had been milled about the upper portion of this number is lost. (I noticed that the pictures shown have carefully(?) avoided showing this section of the cylinder.) Last edited by deadin; 08-08-2012 at 10:27 AM.. Reason: Memory lapse.....

08-08-2012, 10:27 AM	#19
soundguy Advanced Senior Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: florida Contributor Posts: 4,736	Re: Webley Mark I i did see some proofs on the face of a few cyls in some pics...

08-08-2012, 10:56 AM	#20
jjmitchell60 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Raised in Buzzard Roost near Frog Town in hillls of Kentucky Contributor Posts: 1,474	Re: Webley Mark I hrf nailed the ammo as to 455. I order it for a customer from time to time and trust me, NOT CHEAP AT ALL!!!! Te best is to buy a mold, cast your own bullets, buy brass, and load your own. Much cheaper that way. Starline was carrying the brass. As stated, where that one was shaved, value way high and safety is an issue. Replaceing cylinder only devalues it more or at least keeps it low as the shaving of the cylinder. I see them pop up at shows from time to time unshaved and in very good condition for in the $800 range and that is dealers tables at that. __________________ Oath Keepers NOT ON OUR WATCH www.oathkeepers.org 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -- Benjamin Franklin When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes Duty... Thomas Jefferson

08-08-2012, 11:41 AM	#21
hrf Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 2,308	Re: Webley Mark I Incidently, the oversized "broad arrow" on top strap and N on hump behind the hammer on one shown identify it as one issued to the Royal Navy.

08-08-2012, 12:35 PM	#22
Jim K Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 6,408	Re: Webley Mark I The revolver in the OP's pictures has been converted to use .45 ACP with half-moon clips or .45 Auto-Rim. As such, it is not, IMHO, worth $1000; more like $750. For anyone owning such a gun, I STRONGLY recommend NOT firing full charge loads in either in that gun. For shooting, I suggest using .45 AR if possible, then using a load that won't exceed 12,000 psi. .455 or cases made from .45 Colt will give excess headspace. That Mk I still has the recoil shield made as part of the frame; they changed to the dovetail type later in production. The military proof and inspection marks and the broad arrows indicate that was a military gun and as hrf says, one issued to the Royal Navy or Marines. Mine (#805) is a civilian gun with TWO sets of proof marks, the original Birmingham marks and a set of later London marks. (I don't know why; it was not converted and is still in .455.) As others have noted, the cylinder retaining screw is not original. It should be a large head screw with a wide coin-type slot and the threads under the head. Jim Last edited by Jim K; 08-08-2012 at 12:39 PM..

08-08-2012, 06:53 PM	#24
Jim K Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 6,408	Re: Webley Mark I FWIW, here is a quick way to tell if a Webley cylinder has been shaved. If a dime won't fit or won't fit easily easily between the cylinder and the recoil shield, the gun is in the original .455. If a quarter will fit, the cylinder has been shaved. Jim

08-08-2012, 09:02 PM	#25
45Auto Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,124	Re: Webley Mark I That MKI is also a reblue. Not a bad job at all, but not original and cuts down on value. Ammo: Some years ago, I bought a .455 hollow base mold. It was not cheap but it's the only way to go if you want affordable and accurate ammo. For the MK I, black powder works best, it gives an impressive boom and the old boy hits the target, can't ask for more.