Fossils

[Diamondback]

Last week or so I was reading in a thread that some people believe that the earth and mankind are have existed for only about 7000 years. Someone questioned this with the existence with the presence of dinosaur fossils. Someone then stated that if god could create the universe in only seven days then he could make anything he wanted appear to be far older than it accutally is. My question to you is this:

Why would god have to resort to trickery and chicanery to create for his childern the illusion that the world was older than it really is? Why would he be compelled (who could compell him) to play these kind of pranks? What possible purpose could he have?

On the other hand, perhaps the world and the universe truly is over 4 billion years old and dinosaurs really did roam this planet long before the advent of mankind. I believe god started this experiment and then stepped back to observe the results. He has given us the intelligence to follow the clues and discover for ourselves the grandeur that is the creator of all things great and small.

There are still people living today that (a) believe that the earth is flat(goggle Flat Earth Society) and (b) that the universe orbits the earth and is only a few thousand mile across, despite all of the evidence to the contrary.

Humankind was given one thing that god can not control. Free will. We are free to choose what and how we believe.God will never coerce us to belive in him. Please keep in mind that all of the calculations done on the age of the earth, whether 7000yrs or 4 billion yrs, was performed by the imperfect minds of human beings whose judgement was and is clouded by their personal beliefs.

[Old Grump]

Why would god have to resort to trickery and chicanery to create for his childern the illusion that the world was older than it really is? Why would he be compelled (who could compell him) to play these kind of pranks? What possible purpose could he have?

God would not but when your theology is weak and your mind is simple you make up anything you can to fill in the unanswered questions. It's so much easier than believing in a complex world. By not believing in science facts they don't have to grow up and learn anything beyond what they learned in Sunday school.

[carver]

http://www.oldearth.org/old.htm
You can believe in an old earth and be a Christian. The doctrine of salvation has nothing to do with the age of the earth. The Bible does not say, “Believe in a young earth, or be condemned to hell.” You can become a Christian and believe in an old earth.
Want to learn more? This website is here to help you. Let's start with a basic explanation of old earth theology. There are several major positions one can take with regards to belief in an old earth and universe. Using a simplistic view of old earth creationist beliefs, they can basically be split into two groups, those who hold to a Day-Age Interpretation, and those who believe in the Gap Theory.
•Day-Age Interpretation - The belief that the days of creation contained in Genesis 1 were actually long ages, each lasting millions of years. This can be consecutive days, or overlapping days. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day-age_creationism

•Progressive Creationism - Each creation day is equal to millions of years, and represents a specific portion of God's creative work. Progressive creation believes that God created each species as a unique creation. In other words, God spoke, and they were created. God did not use evolution in the development of the species. http://www.oldearth.org/progressive.htm

•Theistic Evolution - God used evolution to develop life on earth. Each creation day is equal to millions of years, representing a specific portion of God's creative work. Although many claim that Theistic Evolution is a Day-Age interpretation, this cannot be the case. The days of creation must overlap each other, thus a literal reading that the days of creation are unique time periods distinct to themselves is not scientifically valid. http://www.oldearth.org/theistic_evolution.htm

•The Gap Theory - Also known as the Ruin-Reconstruction theory, this proposes that there was a ‘gap’ of time, of billions of years, between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. This theory claims that the earth of old somehow became ruined (some blame Satan and his fallen angels), and was later repaired by God as described during the six 24-hour days of creation. This theory became popular after being included in the Scofield Reference Bible in 1945, and many still hold to it. http://www.oldearth.org/gap.htm

[Charles Christensen]

I know I'm running the risk of setting someone off but I have to practice now and then.

If the world is 6,000-7,000 years old why did God strew about the skeletons of creatures that never existed? If God has that sort of sense of humor then we are all in trouble.

Remember that scene from Men in Black were Smith opens a locker to find a miniature race worshiping him? I think he said, "That ain't right." Well, why does a SUPREME BEING, LORD COMMANDER OF THE UNIVERSE AND ALL OF CREATION bother creating a defective strain of bacteria (us) and command that we worship HIM? Check a psych book. I think we have a word for that kind of thinking.

And, no, I am not a drooling, rabid atheist. I have no objection to religion as long as it is peaceful. I consider myself somewhat agnostic. I just don't know if there is any kind of God and I'm pretty sure no one else does either.

[carver]

Originally Posted by Charles Christensen

I know I'm running the risk of setting someone off but I have to practice now and then.

If the world is 6,000-7,000 years old why did God strew about the skeletons of creatures that never existed? If God has that sort of sense of humor then we are all in trouble.

Remember that scene from Men in Black were Smith opens a locker to find a miniature race worshiping him? I think he said, "That ain't right." Well, why does a SUPREME BEING, LORD COMMANDER OF THE UNIVERSE AND ALL OF CREATION bother creating a defective strain of bacteria (us) and command that we worship HIM? Check a psych book. I think we have a word for that kind of thinking.

And, no, I am not a drooling, rabid atheist. I have no objection to religion as long as it is peaceful. I consider myself somewhat agnostic. I just don't know if there is any kind of God and I'm pretty sure no one else does either.

Just look around you at the universe you live in. Do you really believe that life is a random chance of cahos?

[One Shot]

Said it before and I'll say it again. If you really seek the truth, read Ken Ham's book " The Lie".

End of discussion for me.

[jack404]

actually if you look why say things never existed ? they exist and where needed as building blocks to ready the world for us .. God got us here , how , i've a big interest but it dont impact on my beleif in God , just stretchs my brain a bit

i'm a Theistic evolutionist i suppose , but dont think the universe is as old as they say and when i argue my points in the science community

its rather hard for them to counter the arguement i'm pitching

God's good that way

[whymememe]

There is a God and nature is the medium he uses to communicate with us. Get closer to nature, get closer to God.

[Country101]

I have no problems with the age of the world. It could be billions upon billions of years old, 10 million, or 20 thousand. It doesnt make a bit of differance. I personally believe in the millions. Evolution poses no problems either. I know it could not just be random chance. You have to understand 2 things. 1. There are things that we can/never will understand. Try to actually wrap your head around infinity. If you can, you are far better than I. If something has no beginning and no end, when did it start? 2. Not everything in the Bible is literal. This was written thousands of years ago to people who did not have the knowledge to comprehend things, so not everything could be explained to them, so it had to be put in a way they could. So when they say God created everything in 7 days, not an issue. It also says that to God a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day. The time is irrelevant. Just sayin.......

Whatever the issue, if there is room for doubt or poor logic, the devil will use it to his advantage. You can make that bullet point 3 if you like.....

[whymememe]

Its irrelevant. All I know with any certainty is my age. All I can recall is events that happened during my life. The rest I have to exstapolate. The bible is a history book and it has the flaws of any book, it was written from the authors' point of view. That point of view could have any kind of bias that you can think of. Although there is a universal message, I cannot take it literally.

[UncleDannie]

I agree with Carver - one day of the Lord is the same as a million years to us poor mortals. Just look at Adam and Eve. They were created to live 'forever' and when God kicked them out of Eden, it took thousands of years for them to die. Methuselah was over 900 years old before he died. Takes quite a while for the biological clocks to run down.

[Charles Christensen]

Last year I took a bunch of kids on a field trip to Brookfield Zoo southwest of Chicago. While I was sitting in my bus reading a book I was approached by a driver from some other bus company. He tried to shove Jesus down my throat. I challenged him to walk out into the parking lot in front of us and PROVE there was a God. That did not happen, of course.

Faith, by definition, is belief in something that cannot be proven. Imagine that of the countless number of planets and moons in this universe that could support life of some sort there is an intelligent slug perceiving the surrounding planets and stars and deciding that its kind stands at the pinnacle of divine creation.

Our solar system is a grain of sand on a beach and we have only just begun to realize that we are surrounded by other grains of sand beyond counting. What else do we not know? Realistically, we have nothing to compare ourselves to, so why do we think we are not the scrambled results of total chaos?

We murder, cheat, steal and lie at all levels of our societies. Our bodies can be born defective and always fall apart in a few decades. Are we the image of God? I hope not.

[flintlock]

[Our bodies can be born defective and always fall apart in a few decades. Are we the image of God? I hope not.[/QUOTE]

You don't think God has a sense of humor? Actually this entire line of posts has been interesting, thanks to all.

[carver]

It takes a lot more faith to believe that all the cosmos exists from pure cahos than it does to believe that there is mathmatical order to the universe! It takes for more faith to believe in evolution than it does in creation.

[Diamondback]

If anyone here thinks god doesn't have a sense of humor, consider the Platypus.

[ampaterry]

A group of atheist scientists work very hard to convince everyone else that God does not exist. In order to do this, they propose natural explanations for everything that exists or ever did exist. Since they have never OBSERVED a new organ or system to come into being through evolution, their only option is to propose that evolution requires vast periods of time, far too long to actually be observed. And from this NEED sprang the entire billions-and-billions of years scenario. As Christenson said, we all OBSERVE the natural decay of all living organisms. We OBSERVE evolution in action, and the result is ALWAYS negative. Kids are born with spinal bifida, not with some new organ that somehow HELPS them. Entropy is true; biological complexity development through evolution is not.

But we ARE being assaulted by one who wants very much to trick us.
It is not God, however, but the guy on the other side.

The subject of dinosaurs has been covered here before. They did live, absolutely. And Man lived at the same time. He called them Dragons.

[jack404]

if ya think platypus's are funny , get one in a net ,

but remember they have a 3"-4" long spur that can cut like a razor , so the net wont last long then ya faced with a ticked off puss .. still with 2 switchblades if its a mind to use em

makes ya think eh ..

[carver]

Originally Posted by ampaterry

The subject of dinosaurs has been covered here before. They did live, absolutely. And Man lived at the same time. He called them Dragons.

http://www.genesispark.com/exhibits/...ient/dinosaur/

[Old Grump]

Strictly speaking the age of dinosaurs hasn't quite ended since we still have remnant species living in our wares from Gar and Sturgeon to alligators and crocodiles. However modern man has been around barely 1,000,000 years and primates did come into existence during the days of thunder lizards, 65,000,000 years ago but they were not intelligent in the sense that we measure intelligence and they were barely squirrel size. We are late comers to the game of life and to my way of thinking the most fascinating because we have motives for what we do and excuses for our failures to do it but animals just do what they must to keep existing.

[AL MOUNT]

Originally Posted by Diamondback

If anyone here thinks god doesn't have a sense of humor, consider the Platypus.

or

[Archie]

Mr. Christensen; you are quite correct, God would not create a race of humanity so defective. Nor did He.

Almighty God created humanity in His image. Not a physical image, but a spiritual and mental image. Humanity could think, decide and make choices - self-aware and self-determining.

Shortly after that, humanity made a conscious choice to disobey God. In doing so, humanity screwed itself up rather badly and the result is what you see about you now.

At this point, usually the agnostic (or drooling atheist, I deal with both) says, "Well, God SHOULD have made us so we didn't screw up!"

In other words, God should have made us without free will? Much like dogs, dolphins, cockroaches and Jack's platypus?

Or are you going to argue God should have made us with free will, but not capable of screwing up? That is a logical impossibility and remains a logical impossibility even if one throws God's name into the mix.

Humanity is terribly flawed, not due to God, but due to mankind.

The Universe - as we understand it - is in fact nearly 15 billion years old. God created it, established the rules that run it and watches it. The God with whom I deal is that big, that old and that patient. Frankly, I like the Biblical version of pre-history than I like the Bishop Ussher version.

[ampaterry]

I once bought into all that stuff, Archie - had it drilled into my brain in the public school system. Further study of the evidence for - and against - a billions-of-years-old planet, however, convinced me that the universe - and the earth - is no where near that age.

Going strictly by the evidence, I see no way the earths age can exceed 20,000 years.
And I came to that conclusion LONG before I was a Christian, or accepted the Bible as fact.

[ampaterry]

Radiometric dating, for instance, is highly flawed.
Did you know that carbon 14 dating, accepted as factual and accurate, had to have a 'correction factor' used on it to make it come into line with KNOWN ages from dendochronology? NO explanation for that correction, other than it was NEEDED.

[RunningOnMT]

Yep. As much as science touts it's "scientific method", the truth is, the history of science is full of error and even intentional deceptions, designed to support theory.

Awhile back while reading Genesis a thought occurred to me that might explain the apparent discrepancy between biblical history and scientific history based on geological and fossil evidence.

"1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day."

Time is not measured by some transcendent standard, the increments of which is never changing. We measure time by one thing; the earths rotation and orbit around the sun. The Bible has already defined what one day is; the "evening and the morning". In other words one full cycle of darkness and one full cycle of light. It is not impossible to imagine that various events in the early history of the universe, altered both the earth's rotation and it's solar orbit. Thus our standard of measurement of time has been altered. In the beginning a day may have been much longer than it is now.

Of course now we see the universe is expanding and the earth's rotation is slowing down. This would alter the length of our days and years in the opposite direction, but who knows what events shook things up in the past? Only God.

I may be a simple minded fool, unable to grasp more advanced concepts of science or unwilling to accept the idea of existence without a creator, but I'm sticking with the Bible. It's all I've got. Let God's word be true, and every man a liar.

[B27]

" I believe in a god who reveals himself in the nature of all being....not in a god who concerns himself with the fate and actions of men."