Lee Factory crimp die for 9mm Luger - Necessary?? - The Firearms Forum

SamoyedGuy · 10-20-2012, 03:57 PM

I'm brand new to reloading because of worries about the availability of ammunition. I am going to start with 9mm Luger. I have Winchester 115 gr JHP bullets. since these are for a semi-auto they don't have cannelures. Lee included the factory crimp die for the fourth station of the classic turret press. I've seen an article in the Lyman 49th edition about roll crimping being a problem with head-space in some cartridges. Is this something I should skip?

Also the 380 die set doesn't include a factory crimp die; that is sold separately. Should I order on when I buy the 380 ACP die set or just not worry about a final crimp?

Sorry for asking what I suspect may be a very ignorant question but I want to feel safe when reloading or shooting my reloads.

Alpo · 10-20-2012, 04:16 PM

The Factory Crimp Die is not necessary. People loaded for years before they were invented. But they sure are nice.

Now, don't confuse "crimp" with "roll-crimp". They are two different things.

To crimp a case is to do something to it to make it grip the bullet tighter. "Roll crimp" is one of three different ways to do this.

Most automatic pistol cartridges use a "taper crimp". The taper crimp is built into the seating die (just as the roll-crimp shoulder is built into the seating die of a revolver set).

This shows a roll-crimp. It's a rifle case, but it works the same with pistol.

This is a reloading die, cut in half. See the two areas that are circled? Notice how they curve inward? When the case is shoved up into the die, the case mouth hits that area (called the "crimping shoulder") and it literally "rolls" the case mouth inward into the bullet.

An auto-pistol case, though, is more like a funnel. The die gets narrower as it goes up, and as the case is raised into the die, it is squeezed inward, so that whole of the case is tapered and holds the bullet.

So the FCD is not necessary. Your 380 dies will load perfectly satisfactory ammo without it.

I just think it's nice. Got one for every cartridge I load, except for the couple of strange ones where they don't make one for it.

SamoyedGuy · 10-20-2012, 04:50 PM

Thanks ALPO! That makes sense. I'm looking forward to trying my first batch.

gdmoody · 10-20-2012, 09:11 PM

Alpo covered it nicely. I also use the factory crimp die on every cartridge I load, to include the .380 ACP.

steve4102 · 10-20-2012, 11:53 PM

The taper "crimp" for semi-auto pistols is not really a crimp. It is used to remove the flare that was applied in station two plus maybe a thou or two more. It is not used to secure the bullet.

There are a few ways to remove the flare (taper-crimp) for your 9mm and 380.

1) You can set up your seating die to seat the bullet and remove the flare in one step. This can be tricky and may cause issues if your brass has large variations in length.

2) You can seat the bullet with the seating die, then adjust the die to remove the flare in a separate step. This works well, but in my opinion a PIA.

3) You can set up the seating die to seat only, no flare removal. Install a fourth "Taper Crimp" die in station 4 to remove the flare. Just about every die manufacturer offers a "taper crimp" die for the 9MM and 380 ACP. This is the preferred method by many.

4) You can set up the seating die as in #3 above and install a Lee Factory Crimp die in station four. The LFCD is no different than any other "taper crimp" die except it has a carbide sizing ring at the base. The LFCD will remove the flare and the carbide ring will iron out any over sized imperfection that may have occurred during the loading process. This will ensure your handloads feed and fit your chamber. This is my preferred method.

Alpo · 10-21-2012, 09:31 AM

I don't agree.

My RCBS 45 and 9mm dies had a section, in the "setting up your die" instructions, where it said to test that you have applied enough taper crimp, you should put the bullet nose against your bench and push. If the bullet did not go any farther into the case, you were using enough crimp.

This, to me, says the taper crimp DOES secure the bullet.

JLA · 10-21-2012, 09:46 AM

youre right alpo. The taper crimp can be removed with the seating die by adjusting it down to contact the mouth plus 1/4 turn.

The LFCD has a post sizer ring that will also swage out the flare. then the taper crimp is applied separately and secures the bullet.

steve4102 · 10-21-2012, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alpo

I don't agree.

My RCBS 45 and 9mm dies had a section, in the "setting up your die" instructions, where it said to test that you have applied enough taper crimp, you should put the bullet nose against your bench and push. If the bullet did not go any farther into the case, you were using enough crimp.

This, to me, says the taper crimp DOES secure the bullet.

Do the same test before the crimp is applied and again after. Neck tension alone should hold the bullet secure. If it does not, a slight tapper crimp will not be sufficient enough to secure a bullet with improper neck tension.

SamoyedGuy · 10-23-2012, 03:28 PM

Thanks to all of you! I'm starting to reload and using the 4 positions with the LFCD in the final spot. I have to be honest and was nervous as heck when I first set a primer. The Lee and the Lyman books had some ominous words about them but all went well.

I just wish I had started doing my own loading years ago.

soundguy · 10-23-2012, 06:55 PM

wtch out.. it gets expensive fast!

I started out with a single, cheap , single staion lee press and 30-06 die set.

Now I'm reloading for a couple dozen cartridges and have uh.... well.. sufficient brass and projectiles, powder and primers for a good while..

at least in the common ones I shoot. there are still a few i'm looing for odd brass or proj's..

10-20-2012, 03:57 PM	#1
SamoyedGuy Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Northern KY Posts: 3	Lee Factory crimp die for 9mm Luger - Necessary?? I'm brand new to reloading because of worries about the availability of ammunition. I am going to start with 9mm Luger. I have Winchester 115 gr JHP bullets. since these are for a semi-auto they don't have cannelures. Lee included the factory crimp die for the fourth station of the classic turret press. I've seen an article in the Lyman 49th edition about roll crimping being a problem with head-space in some cartridges. Is this something I should skip? Also the 380 die set doesn't include a factory crimp die; that is sold separately. Should I order on when I buy the 380 ACP die set or just not worry about a final crimp? Sorry for asking what I suspect may be a very ignorant question but I want to feel safe when reloading or shooting my reloads. -->

10-20-2012, 04:16 PM	#2
Alpo Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: NW Florida Posts: 8,662	Re: Lee Factory crimp die for 9mm Luger - Necessary?? The Factory Crimp Die is not necessary. People loaded for years before they were invented. But they sure are nice. Now, don't confuse "crimp" with "roll-crimp". They are two different things. To crimp a case is to do something to it to make it grip the bullet tighter. "Roll crimp" is one of three different ways to do this. Most automatic pistol cartridges use a "taper crimp". The taper crimp is built into the seating die (just as the roll-crimp shoulder is built into the seating die of a revolver set). This shows a roll-crimp. It's a rifle case, but it works the same with pistol. This is a reloading die, cut in half. See the two areas that are circled? Notice how they curve inward? When the case is shoved up into the die, the case mouth hits that area (called the "crimping shoulder") and it literally "rolls" the case mouth inward into the bullet. An auto-pistol case, though, is more like a funnel. The die gets narrower as it goes up, and as the case is raised into the die, it is squeezed inward, so that whole of the case is tapered and holds the bullet. So the FCD is not necessary. Your 380 dies will load perfectly satisfactory ammo without it. I just think it's nice. Got one for every cartridge I load, except for the couple of strange ones where they don't make one for it. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with catsup - George of Lod, Year of Our Lord 297 I always take precautions. Beware the Evil Bullet Fairies.

10-20-2012, 09:11 PM	#4
gdmoody Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Northeast Georgia Contributor Posts: 6,334	Re: Lee Factory crimp die for 9mm Luger - Necessary?? Alpo covered it nicely. I also use the factory crimp die on every cartridge I load, to include the .380 ACP. __________________ NRA Endowment Member GeorgiaCarry.Org Member Retired US Army Postal Worker Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take an ass whoopin'.....author unknown (but obviously brilliant)

10-20-2012, 11:53 PM	#5
steve4102 Former Guest Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Minnesota Contributor Posts: 2,760	Re: Lee Factory crimp die for 9mm Luger - Necessary?? The taper "crimp" for semi-auto pistols is not really a crimp. It is used to remove the flare that was applied in station two plus maybe a thou or two more. It is not used to secure the bullet. There are a few ways to remove the flare (taper-crimp) for your 9mm and 380. 1) You can set up your seating die to seat the bullet and remove the flare in one step. This can be tricky and may cause issues if your brass has large variations in length. 2) You can seat the bullet with the seating die, then adjust the die to remove the flare in a separate step. This works well, but in my opinion a PIA. 3) You can set up the seating die to seat only, no flare removal. Install a fourth "Taper Crimp" die in station 4 to remove the flare. Just about every die manufacturer offers a "taper crimp" die for the 9MM and 380 ACP. This is the preferred method by many. 4) You can set up the seating die as in #3 above and install a Lee Factory Crimp die in station four. The LFCD is no different than any other "taper crimp" die except it has a carbide sizing ring at the base. The LFCD will remove the flare and the carbide ring will iron out any over sized imperfection that may have occurred during the loading process. This will ensure your handloads feed and fit your chamber. This is my preferred method.

10-21-2012, 09:31 AM	#6
Alpo Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: NW Florida Posts: 8,662	Re: Lee Factory crimp die for 9mm Luger - Necessary?? I don't agree. My RCBS 45 and 9mm dies had a section, in the "setting up your die" instructions, where it said to test that you have applied enough taper crimp, you should put the bullet nose against your bench and push. If the bullet did not go any farther into the case, you were using enough crimp. This, to me, says the taper crimp DOES secure the bullet. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with catsup - George of Lod, Year of Our Lord 297 I always take precautions. Beware the Evil Bullet Fairies.

10-20-2012, 04:50 PM	#3
SamoyedGuy Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Northern KY Posts: 3	Re: Lee Factory crimp die for 9mm Luger - Necessary?? Thanks ALPO! That makes sense. I'm looking forward to trying my first batch.

10-21-2012, 09:46 AM	#7
JLA TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Heart Of Texas Contributor Posts: 17,318	Re: Lee Factory crimp die for 9mm Luger - Necessary?? youre right alpo. The taper crimp can be removed with the seating die by adjusting it down to contact the mouth plus 1/4 turn. The LFCD has a post sizer ring that will also swage out the flare. then the taper crimp is applied separately and secures the bullet. __________________ It takes 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, and 3 for proper trigger squeeze. The latest caliber or gear is no substitute for experience and skill. Rifles and cartridges don't make hits -- shooters do. Fact of life: After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF!

10-23-2012, 03:28 PM	#9
SamoyedGuy Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Northern KY Posts: 3	Re: Lee Factory crimp die for 9mm Luger - Necessary?? Thanks to all of you! I'm starting to reload and using the 4 positions with the LFCD in the final spot. I have to be honest and was nervous as heck when I first set a primer. The Lee and the Lyman books had some ominous words about them but all went well. I just wish I had started doing my own loading years ago.

10-23-2012, 06:55 PM	#10
soundguy Advanced Senior Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: florida Contributor Posts: 4,441	Re: Lee Factory crimp die for 9mm Luger - Necessary?? wtch out.. it gets expensive fast! I started out with a single, cheap , single staion lee press and 30-06 die set. Now I'm reloading for a couple dozen cartridges and have uh.... well.. sufficient brass and projectiles, powder and primers for a good while.. at least in the common ones I shoot. there are still a few i'm looing for odd brass or proj's..