My new Stag Arms 5.56. (first time shooting it) ..problems

[Gibill]

Just purchased a stag model 3 on Saturday. Shot it for the 1st time today. Had a problem with jamb (after 1st round). Didn't eject empty case and couldn't budge charging handle without a struggle. After working with it, finally released and ejected the empty. Processed the 2nd round through the gun and same thing. Didn't eject the empty and struggled but not as long. Eventually, after 3 or 4 other rounds, and a small amount of rem oil around the chamber, I could "manually" eject the spent case. Shot total of 50 rounds. Still not ejecting emptys. Was instructed to shoot 62 grain (green tip) 223 rounds up to 100 or better to break the gun in. I noticed the empty cases coming out of the gun were just a tad warm. Not hot like other ar's I have shot before. And the barrel was just warm after each shot. Do I have to keep shooting to break it in or is there a problem? And why is it firing so cool in temp.?

[Zane71464]

I bought a new one some time back and the only problem I had, and wont repeat, is that I was shooting "cheap" brand, steel cased ammo.
Got on the good ammo and havent had not a single problem with the Stag 3.
As far as accuracy and reliable, it likes the Remington UMC 55gr. and the American Eagle 55gr., as well as Hornady. 55 grain is all I shoot through mine as it seems to like it the best. (bullet grain wise)

[GunHugger]

First of all, new gun...you can have a few problems until it's shot a little.

You didn't say if you had done two important things before you shot it.

Did you clean the bore and more importantly, the chamber? Most of the time a new gun needs a good chamber cleaning with a real chamber brush made for a AR that you twist around to clean the chamber and locking lugs.

Lubrication is very important. Remove the bolt and oil it where on its surfaces where it slides inside the upper receiver. Many will advise using more oil than it really needed, but use enough that it's not gone after 10 rounds.

If you didn't do both of the above that is most likely the cause of your troubles. That and it will break in and function smoother after you shoot it more.

Fifty rounds of slow fire isn't much for a rifle designed to fire a few hundred a minute. So it not being hot after 50 rounds is normal.

Still not ejecting...I just read that part again. Clean the chamber and then try to get a good look in there for anything rough, a ridge or burr that might be causing a problem. Check the extractor on the bolt.

What exactly is happening when you fire it? It goes bang, bolt goes back, empty still in chamber. bolt picks up another round and jambs? More details will help solve the problem.

I think that you might have meant to say 62 grain green tip 5.56. I don't know of any 223 green tip.

[JLA]

Ammo?? Handloads or factory? .223 or 5.56?

[Gibill]

Thanks for your response.......yes on cleaning chamber and barrel before shooting.....my bad they are 5.56 but yes, reloads. What takes place, gun fires and bolt doesn't seem to move. 1st few rounds even had trouble manually ejecting spent case and advancing next round. After around 6 rounds, manual ejection and advance new round worked fine. But gun acted like a single shot rifle. Before shooting, removed bolt ass'y and cleaned and lightly oiled. As well as cleaned barrel. Didn't take anything else apart nor clean anything else

[Zane71464]

This is a "stab" in the dark here, but are you sure the gas tube is free of any debris?

[GunHugger]

Originally Posted by Gibill

Thanks for your response.......yes on cleaning chamber and barrel before shooting.....my bad they are 5.56 but yes, reloads. What takes place, gun fires and bolt doesn't seem to move. 1st few rounds even had trouble manually ejecting spent case and advancing next round. After around 6 rounds, manual ejection and advance new round worked fine. But gun acted like a single shot rifle. Before shooting, removed bolt ass'y and cleaned and lightly oiled. As well as cleaned barrel. Didn't take anything else apart nor clean anything else

After reading this I agree with Zane, it sure sounds like a gas issue.

Handloads? Could be a problem if they aren't loaded within spec, not sized properly....I don't know, it could a lot of things. Has the reloads been fired in another AR and they function properly? If not try some factory 5.56 brass ammo.

But you also need to check the gas system. It's possible that the gas hole isn't drilled correctly or aligned with the gas block hole correctly or clogged.

Or, give Stag a call.

[LDBennett]

My son-in-law had the same kind of problem with his Stag Arms AR. I took it home and went through it but found nothing wrong. I then took it to the range and shot some of my reloads that work perfectly in my American Spirit Arms upper and guess what? They worked perfectly in his gun too. He had been shooting cheap ammo and it would not cycle the gun.

First verify that gas is getting down the gas tube. Then make sure gas is coming in through the hole in the barrel to the gas tube. You can use compressed air in the gas tube at the chamber end and see if it comes out of the barrel gas hole. If that is right then go buy some better name brand ammo like Winchester or Remington and try the gun at the range. Gas guns are sensitive to powder type and load levels. If you are planning to use reloads search out a reloading manual recipe that was made exclusively for AR's. They are so popular that there is one for sure out there someplace.

My load is for a varmint upper with a heavy barrel with a 7.5 twist (which will not shoot 52-55 grain bullets very well at all). I'll not list it here (too dangerous legally) but I will tell you that the bullets are Hornady 75 gr HPBT Match with Vihtavuori N140 powder in the range of 21.5 to 23.5 grs. All operated the gun flawlessly even when the gun was new, even the starting load. In your case just find an AR specific load and try it but first try good commercial ammo (no Russian or Wolf or XXX!). Steel cased ammo is probably not a good idea in this gun.

As an aside, your chamber may need a small base sizing die but that is a last resort. A trip back to stag ARms should come first if the ammo change doesn't do it.

LDBennett

[GunHugger]

I wondered what kind of testing Stag does with their guns and found the following. It says they only do "batch testing" and I found no reference to them test firing before shipping them off to customers. But I don't know for sure if the test fire or not, only that I couldn't find it said they they do.


Stag batch tests their barrels, BCG's and bolts, not individually. Individual high pressure testing and magnetic particle inspecting each part is the best option for building these types of firearm parts but the process is very "expensive" on large scale productions. Since Stag knows its market (average joes and cops) so they batch test as a cost savings and back it up with a lifetime warranty to offset this feature. This might be a deal breaker for the hard core shooter and I dont blame them at all.

[al45lc]

I never test or break in a gun with handloads unless that load has operated properly in other fireams of similar design. Even then, you may have loads that aren't within spec but work in other already broken in guns.
The manufacturer will probably tell you the same, buy some known quality ammo and try that before assuming it's the gun.

[LDBennett]

I bought a new Browning BAR that had been factory test fired that had missed a complete step in the barrel's chamber machining process. It was even test fired by a gunsmith at one of their Service Centers and the problem not detected. I found it myself by inspection and measurements. When the gun went back to Browning with my findings, it came back obviously fixed.

The point?

Test firing may not reveal all the problems of a new gun. You, as the new owner, will find the problems and return the gun if necessary. Probably the most common problem with a new gun is ammunition. That is one reason (but the legal responsibility of the manufacture is the main reason, so they want to control the situation) manufacturers insist that you only use commercial ammo and often will reject the warrantee claim if you admit to using reloads.

LDBennett

[GunHugger]

True LD.

But some AR manufacturers test fire far more than one round. One brand fires 40, 10 for accuracy and 30 for proper function. You don't have to worry about them shooting correctly when you buy them.

Others do nothing, put them together and ship them off hoping they function properly.

Just one more reason some ARs cost more than others. Some test every important component such as bolts and barrels on every gun, others just batch test one of out a hundred or so. Some give them extensive test firings, others nothing.

I was trying to find out what Stag does with theirs to possibly eliminate a problem that would have shown up with a proper factory test firing such as a gas system problem.

[JLA]

Take the bolt apart and make sure the gas rings arent lined up at thier splits.

What powder and projectile are you using?

[woolleyworm]

Not trying to point fingers or get personal at you Gibill, but want to point out some good advice to anyone that may read this thread.

If anyone ever encounters a problem like this, do not put in another round until you break the gun down and at least take a good look at everything. It's much the same thought process as throwing in another fuse after one has blown and then just throwing the switch (and blowing another fuse). If a brand new gun exhibits serious symptoms on the first shot; take a few minutes to troubleshoot it and look for any defects, parts out of place, etc. I would also call the manufacturer or dealer that I bought it from ASAP.

So, yes, a little bit of a slap on the back of the head ( which I hope isn't offensive, it's not meant to be ) Just want to keep you and everyone else safe and not end up causing possibly bigger problems. I witnessed a guy put 2 rounds of .22 down his 10/22, the first one didn't come out because he had his boresight left in the end of the barrel. He got a confused look after the first shot sounded funny and gave a quick glance in the chamber, then put it to his shoulder and pulled the trigger again. Made a darn ugly bulge about 10" up his barrel and ended his day at the range cussin. If something isn't right..... STOP and inspect, it takes just a couple minutes to break down most any gun.

BTW - I didn't notice until now that you were an electrician, so I think you'll understand the fuse analogy well. For those that aren't electricians, 99.9% of the time you can figure out why the fuse blew with an ohm-meter and no power. Much safer to troubleshoot and much less costly/hazardous.

I had a call this morning for a 115v brake coil and control transformer that had gotten toasty..... someone put a 10A fuse in the control circuit; when the brake coil shorted, the transformer burned up before the fuse could blow. The fuse was still good ! Come to find out, the original 1/2A fast acting fuse kept blowing ( several times ), so someone decided to put in a 10A time delay fuse. Cost of repair went from a $600 job to a $11,500 job in the matter of a few moments of bad judgement.

[gun runner]

Originally Posted by JLA

Ammo?? Handloads or factory? .223 or 5.56?

Whats the difference between 5.56 and .223?

[3/2 STA SS]

I would NEVER fire steel cased ammo in any AR style rifle. I have seen way too many failure to ejects and stuck cases. The tollerances are too tight fir the steel cased ammo. It's great in the AK series of rifles but not in a .223 AR.

[LDBennett]

Look on the barrel of the gun you are shooting and use the ammo listed there, none other.

Others will correct me if I am wrong but 556 is the military designation for M16 ammo and the new carbine based on the M16/AR platform. It is hotter than 223 but 223 ammo can be shot in a 556 gun (For safety sake it is not recommended in case you forget and put 556 in a 223).

The safe bet is to only shoot the commercial ammo in the gun that is listed on the barrel. For reloading I believe you use the same dies and load levels for 556 as you do for 223. A research of reloading manuals will either confirm me or repudiate me but the reloading manual is the bible for reloading, not some guy on the internet.

LDBennett

[gun runner]

Originally Posted by 3/2 STA SS

I would NEVER fire steel cased ammo in any AR style rifle. I have seen way too many failure to ejects and stuck cases. The tollerances are too tight fir the steel cased ammo. It's great in the AK series of rifles but not in a .223 AR.

I learned my lesson with that and I will never use steel cased ammo again.

[Gibill]

Thanks everybody for your insight......a slap behind the head (wooly worm) is needed every now and then......thanks.....keep the info coming!

[GunHugger]

So have you tried other ammo? Like some factory loaded stuff.

[JLA]

Originally Posted by gun runner

Whats the difference between 5.56 and .223?

pressure and leade

[JLA]

Im still curious as to the powder and bullet used? I ask because i experienced this very same issue way beck when I first took ip ARs and feeding them handloads.. Had nothing really to do with the bullet and everything to do with the powder.

[Gibill]

To answer your question, JLA, I don't know the powder load.......the dealer I bought the gun from told me to use 5.56 green tip 62gr bullets......he told me where to buy them......they were in a plain clear plastic bag.......think I learned my lesson on buying ammo at a show.....yesterday, I contacted stag and they told me to send them the gun for their techs to go through to find the problem........it's boxed up ready to go out mon. A.m.......will keep u posted what I find out........i like JLA's observation about the possibility of the slots on the gas rings not being offset. Could that cause the spent shells coming out of the gun Luke warm? (as well as the barrel)

[woolleyworm]

[/QUOTE]..i like JLA's observation about the possibility of the slots on the gas rings not being offset. Could that cause the spent shells coming out of the gun Luke warm? (as well as the barrel)[/QUOTE]

I dont think so. Most likely it is a gas port/alignment problem; the hot gasses are not coming back into the action. ( either not at all or not enough) It could be a problem with the ammo, but you'd have to check it in another gun to be sure.

[JLA]

It certainly can. All the gas pressure would bypass thru the lined up splits.

So i take it you purchased remanufactured ammo? If so heres my assessment. Ammo remanufacturers do not use the best powder for a particular cartridge. they use the most efficient. Which 99% of the time is also the fastest burning suitable to the cartridge being loaded. The problem you are having is a short pressure curve. pressur eis spiking and dropping back off before the gas system can get the bolt open to eject the empty and allow the spring to load a fresh round, instead its shortstroking and just closing back up on the spent case. What you need is a slower burning propellant.

Heres my expereince with this very issue.

Back in the winter of '08, both my FIL and myself began purchasing ARs. At the time I was reloading for them with 53 gr SMKs and Reloder 7. They worked fine thru the winter and on into the spring time. Probelms arose witht he 100+ degree days of the summer for us. the gas systems on ALL 3 of our ARs began shortstroking regularly. So i began diagnosing and changing parts. The bushmaster my FIL purchased was the only used rifle of the 3 so i upgraded his gas tube and the piston rings on the bolt head to a onepiece spiral ring. My 2 both got the one piece spiral ring. Next morning we hit the range and things were fine until lunchtime when everything started shortstroking again. Its 105 outside and im just about ready to melt $4K dollars worth of ARs with an acetylene torch. Oh well, we were out of ammo anyway. So i head home, took a cold shower and sat and began to sort and process spent .223 brass. I actualy stumbled upon the fix accidentally. I was nearly out of reloder 7 so i dug out my manuals to find a suitable powder that I did have and found that IMR4895 suited the 53 gr SMKs as well. but the median charge was in the 25 gr range where the median charge for reloder 7 was in the 22 gr range. So I did a little digging, which turned up nothing relevant to my issue. Anyhow, couple days past before we hit the range again and I all but forgot about it. It was a balmy 107 degree friday afternoon when we hit the range with the 4895 reloads. All 3 rifles ran perfect. So I called another reloading friend of mine (hes a green over on Reloaders nest forum) and we dicussed the issue right down to changing to 4895. He said that could very well be it. Seems the pressure curve of the reloder 7 reloads were right on the cusp of being enough for the AR to function properly. And the 4895 gave a higher port pressure for the gas system to work with which eliminated outr issues.

Anyway, point im rather windedly making is this. Ammo reman's didnt even use reloder 7. i bet cha money they used something closer to IMR 4198 or something similar in burn speed, which is a very economical propellant to use in .223 reloads as you get more rounds per pound. Of course it comes at the expense of some autoloading rifle designs.

My advice is for you to try a couple of different ammo brands with heavier bullets 62 gr and above, as heavier bullets generally get loaded with slower powders. Im bettn your reliability issue goes away.