Looking for a 300/400 yard, kill a predator, cartridge & gun. What would you choose?

[tcox4freedom]

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlake

For me and my family, it's more of a SHTF scenario, kind of a comfort zone thing. I have owned several rifles in my day, a couple of 30-30s, a 30-06 and a 300 winni mag, and did a fair amount of hunting back in the day. As far as rifles go, at this time, We only have a .30 Carbine and a Rossi 92 Lever Gun in .454 but shoot .45 Colt mostly. They are both 100/150 yards guns at best. I decided to get something easy to shoot that can reach out to 300/400 if needed. It's as simple as that. I'd like my son and grandson to learn how to use a quality scoped rifle. It's mostly for them, however, at 71, I still like to shoot as often as we can get out. Too dam hot here in the summer, but from Oct through May, we get out about twice a month.

I guess I should mention, for the most part, we are hand gun shooters. I have several SAs in .45 Colt and .357, a few 9mms, a couple of .380s, .45acps and .38spls. I reload for the .45 Colt, .357/.38spls and .45acps.

I just now saw you live in Nevada. So, 3-500yd shots make sense to me in a SHTF situation. I also know there can be a lot of wind to contend with is some places out west.

When I lived out there I preferred a heavier bullet in a large caliber for longer ranges. I primarily used a 300win mag when I lived out there. Today, I would most likely go with an AR platform and either a 308 or 338 Lapula if I plan on going out to 300yds plus.

However, if you are in a situation where you may have to Bug-Out on foot I would stick with an AR in 5.56/223. I like the AR when it comes to a SHTF or TEOTWAWKI scenario for a couple of reasons-

1. versatility of the 5.56/223 round (a 5.56/223 can be used for hunting & SD)
2. easier to carry hundreds of rounds (larger calibers make this impractical)
3. Abundance of ammo & parts
4. repairs will be easier on the go than other platforms & other calibers
5. ease of operation (an AR is easy to learn & simple to operate.)
6. outright dependability of the AR platform.

Those are my reasons & choices for choosing an AR platform in 5.56/223. If I think I'll be hunkering down instead of bugging out -and- I may be having to shoot through vehicles or cover, I may choose a larger caliber. Otherwise, I prefer the versatility of the 5.56/223.

ETA;
One more thing I like about the AR platform is the ease in which you can change upper receivers, lower receivers, bolts, barrels, etc. (It truly is a remarkable rifle platform.)

JMo2c

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[JohnnyFlake]

Originally Posted by tcox4freedom

I just now saw you live in Nevada. So, 3-500yd shots make sense to me in a SHTF situation. I also know there can be a lot of wind to contend with is some places out west.

When I lived out there I preferred a heavier bullet in a large caliber for longer ranges. I primarily used a 300win mag when I lived out there. Today, I would most likely go with an AR platform and either a 308 or 338 Lapula if I plan on going out to 300yds plus.

However, if you are in a situation where you may have to Bug-Out on foot I would stick with an AR in 5.56/223. I like the AR when it comes to a SHTF or TEOTWAWKI scenario for a couple of reasons-

1. versatility of the 5.56/223 round (a 5.56/223 can be used for hunting & SD)
2. easier to carry hundreds of rounds (larger calibers make this impractical)
3. Abundance of ammo & parts
4. repairs will be easier on the go than other platforms & other calibers
5. ease of operation (an AR is easy to learn & simple to operate.)
6. outright dependability of the AR platform.

Those are my reasons & choices for choosing an AR platform in 5.56/223. If I think I'll be hunkering down instead of bugging out -and- I may be having to shoot through vehicles or cover, I may choose a larger caliber. Otherwise, I prefer the versatility of the 5.56/223.

ETA;
One more thing I like about the AR platform is the ease in which you can change upper receivers, lower receivers, bolts, barrels, etc. (It truly is a remarkable rifle platform.)

JMo2c

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Thanks for your input. I had thought about the larger calibers, .308 & 30-06 for windy situations but reasoned myself back down to the 5.56/.223. You sure can carry a lot of that ammo vs others. Also, my son is now looking at an AR Platform. He is looking at Bushmaster, Stag & Sig. in that round as well.

[CJ_56]

I have a very easy time hitting small targets at a quarter of a mile with my .223 Savage 12. It's a dedicated varmint gun with the target trigger and action. It will shoot consistent 2" groups at 400 yards if the wind isn't blowing much. The .223 / 5.56 round is rated to be effective on humans out past 600 yards. It will have no problem with a coyote at 400. That rated range is with the 62 gr. NATO cartridges also. Heavier bullets are known to apply more of the available force to the target rather than a through and through situation. Modern bullets that fragment well are always going to be effective at longer distances.

BTW Black Hills sells 75 gr. ammo which is what I use in my 1:9 twist barrel. Remington sells a 79 gr. cartridge also. Heavier bullets are readily available these days. But many still prefer lighter bullets because they shoot flatter. As long as the bullets fragment as designed the wound will be bad enough to kill varmints. .223's are used often as varmint guns. Savage builds varmint guns to use that cartridge. I know because I have one.

[Zane71464]

Ive got the old Remington 788 in .243, and it'll reach out there accurate shooting 100gr.
The Savage 12 BVSS in .223 rem will do the trick as well with ease shooting 55gr. Hornady rounds.
The Savage 11 in .204 Ruger, shooting 40gr Hornady V-max will reach out there with ease! Just havent had the chance to try it out on a varmint that far.....(yet).

[Salvage33]

Nothing wrong with a 25-06 at all. Good round, not a lot of recoil, heckuva muzzle blast, accurate, and delivers it all at the distances you stated.

Do your homework, find the caliber you want, get the right scope and ammo, and practice with it.

It doesn't make a bit of difference what caliber it is if you don't know how to send a round effectively down range.

John

[tcox4freedom]

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlake

Thanks for your input. I had thought about the larger calibers, .308 & 30-06 for windy situations but reasoned myself back down to the 5.56/.223. You sure can carry a lot of that ammo vs others. Also, my son is now looking at an AR Platform. He is looking at Bushmaster, Stag & Sig. in that round as well.

There was an article I read the other day about spending $$$$ on an AR. It made the point that a big investment simply wasn't necessary to have a good dependable gun.

I agree 110%.

My wife just bought her 1st AR. (S&W M&P 15 "Sporter") So far I haven't shot it farther than 100yds. But, it was accurate right out of the box to 4"; and it's been 100% reliable.

She payed $600- got a great gun and she can customize it as she discovers what her desires are for the gun. That's another thing I love about the AR. You can start out with a small investment & build your way to the perfect rifle for your intended application.

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[whirley]

I load my 25/06 with 117 gr boattail psp and my . 243 with 100 gr boattail psp. I started my sons out with .243 because of lighter recoil. Both cartridges seem effective on everything including deer and antelope to 300 yards. The heavier bullet in the 25/06 seems to hold better in the wind. I also use it for silhouette shooting to 500 yards. However the .243 has the advantage of less recoil and muzzle blast for younger shooters. Any cartdidge with a muzzle velocity over 2800 and an appropriate bullet will reach out to 500 yards, "If you practice enough"!

[MikeH121]

Originally Posted by whirley

I load my 25/06 with 117 gr boattail psp and my . 243 with 100 gr boattail psp. I started my sons out with .243 because of lighter recoil. Both cartridges seem effective on everything including deer and antelope to 300 yards. The heavier bullet in the 25/06 seems to hold better in the wind. I also use it for silhouette shooting to 500 yards. However the .243 has the advantage of less recoil and muzzle blast for younger shooters. Any cartdidge with a muzzle velocity over 2800 and an appropriate bullet will reach out to 500 yards, "If you practice enough"!

Mosin Nagant 7.62x54R 150 grain bullet at a muzzle velocity of 2,953 fps with muzzle energy (ME) of 2,905 ft. lbs. up to 800 meters.

With a good LER Scope. You can be accurate to 800 yards easy. The Garand has a vel of 2600+ FPS. All for under 200 bucks.

or just get the new Ruger American Rifle bolt action 30-06 around 400 bucks

[JohnnyFlake]

Originally Posted by tcox4freedom

There was an article I read the other day about spending $$$$ on an AR. It made the point that a big investment simply wasn't necessary to have a good dependable gun.

I agree 110%.

My wife just bought her 1st AR. (S&W M&P 15 "Sporter") So far I haven't shot it farther than 100yds. But, it was accurate right out of the box to 4"; and it's been 100% reliable.

She payed $600- got a great gun and she can customize it as she discovers what her desires are for the gun. That's another thing I love about the AR. You can start out with a small investment & build your way to the perfect rifle for your intended application.

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I agree 110%!!!

I was just talking with my son a short while ago about what he is looking for. Apparently guns from Bushmaster, Stag and Sig., etc. can run $1500/$2000 and more, if you load them up with extras. However, he is looking at the basic models, which are great weapons, and can be had in the $800/$1000 range.

[JLA]

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlake

I think the next logical question should be about optics. I haven't used a scope for over 25 years, when I had a Vanguard 300 Winni Mag. If I recall correctly, I had a rectangular or wide field 4X Red Field Scope. It was okay but for some reason, I do recall not being happy with it.

I'd like something in a variable power but not overly powerful, that would do well within the 300/400 yards range I spoke of. Also, not too dam expensive. Your experiences and thought will be appreciated.

my personal choice would be a Nikon Buckmaster 6-18X40SF with Nikoplex or BDC reticle. Will run you around 320 bucks.

[JLA]

Originally Posted by MikeH121

Mosin Nagant 7.62x54R 150 grain bullet at a muzzle velocity of 2,953 fps with muzzle energy (ME) of 2,905 ft. lbs. up to 800 meters.

With a good LER Scope. You can be accurate to 800 yards easy. The Garand has a vel of 2600+ FPS. All for under 200 bucks.

or just get the new Ruger American Rifle bolt action 30-06 around 400 bucks

Where-n-the heck you findin Garands for 200 bucks??

[aa1911]

Originally Posted by JLA

Where-n-the heck you findin Garands for 200 bucks??

if you find one that works for that price, buy it for me please! I've only got one, wouldn't mind having another. Any gun worth owning, it's worth owning at least two of.

[JLA]

I paid 500 for mine and I got lucky.

[polishshooter]

Now I like the Swift too, my Ruger M77 Varmint shoots under 2 inches at 400 yds, and it is right now the rifle I would go to for your scenario....and a guy in South Dakota I met uses his Swift out to that range for Pronghorns....

But I think if it is your FIRST rifle for this type of shooting I would go with a Savage 10 or 11 in .308....

....or yeah, maybe something similar in .243 which splits the difference nicely, and has taken many a deer out to 300-400 yds....and still will not be "overgunned" for smaller varmints....

TONS of bullet choices, from Varmints to Bears, and yeah, a LOT less wind drift....


The .223 will do the job, and is easy to load with lots of components available, is EXTREMELY accurate, but from my experience on Prarie Dogs...

They DIE at that range, but the kills are not as "spectacular" as with my Swift or the .22-250s...

And I remember one kill in particular....225 yds, 50 mph cross wind...right to left....with my Buddy's 700 HB custom Varmint in .223 with a Leupold 12x...

Good thing P-dogs are stupid and don't ussualy go down in the hole at that range unless you hit short and put dirt in their face...


After about my 5th shot (my buddies spotting calling LEFT after each shot) he lays down on his elevated hole, perpendicular to me...

I put the horizontal cross hair through his body, and the Verticle hair TWO FEET to the right....

...And got him...

The 50 grain Target Nosler at about 3400fps moved TWO FEET in 225 yards in that wind.

Yeah, it was a 2" target.....


But I believe with a .308 somewhere around 150 grains in that wind would have probably put one in the 10 inch target you are shooting at on a 2 legged varmint holding just a LITTLE to the right of center chest....

[BETH]

what do u mean human preditor?

[MikeH121]

Originally Posted by JLA

Where-n-the heck you findin Garands for 200 bucks??

The Mosin is uner 200.00 I was just comparing FPS between the two. If I find a Garand for 200 I ain't leaving without it. Sorry for the heart attack you might have had over that

[JLA]

too late. im already on bypass now..

[JLA]

And ballistically the .30-06 edges out the 7.62X54R. the reason the mosin slightly outperforms the Garand is due to barrel length and gas system. The Mosin has no gas system to borrow from the pressure of the 7.62X54R and theres also 29" of barrel. the Garand has a 24" tube and a gas system thats rather hungry for pressure.

[polishshooter]

Mike, I love Mosin guys, have been collecting and shooting them for years, know all ABOUT Simo Haya and all the Finn and Russian Snipers...

But I have yet to shoot ANY M91, 91/30, M44. M38, or M39 which I bought for less than "$200" at MOA from a bench, which is considered minimum "Sniper Accuracy."

GRANTED, I believe my $99 M39 Valmet I once owned in the early 2000s with a scope would have done sub MOA, as it could give under 2" with good ammo with stock open sights and my old eyes from a rest at 100...

But the best I have gotten is 1 1/2" at 100...(Actually my buddy got that, I only got about 1 3/4 with Winchester (S&B) ammo...)

..with my highly modified Polish M44 (which is now worth to ME much MORE than '$200' , probably closer to 4 bills, that I will never see from selling it!) with a 3/9 Bushnell on it....but will make a NICE deer or Hog rifle at up to 200 someday!

Yeah, at 800 I would be shooting maybe 14-16 inches at 800 with more t6han enough power to kill....but consider you have a 10" or less target, there is not much room for error.

That is NOT to say the Mosin Nagant with good ammo is NOT an accurate sniper round...just ask our Marine shooting team that got it's CLOCK cleaned by the Russians in the late 80s shooting Mosin Nagants in 7.62x54...the x54 round is a HELLUVA inherently accurate round for a rimmed cartridge, heck, I saw a Ruger #1 at an estate auction 2 weeks ago custom chambered in x54 I WISH I had enough money to bid on, the dead guy knew his accurate cartridges....

But you won't touch one of THOSE Mosin Nagants for $200....

[CJ_56]

There was an article I read the other day about spending $$$$ on an AR. It made the point that a big investment simply wasn't necessary to have a good dependable gun.

You can't just pick up any AR for cheap and expect it to work well. A lot of them don't. I've seen so many at the range that wouldn't it isn't funny. But of course some will. It's just a matter of knowing which one to get. But for a varmint gun you can't beat a bolt action rifle. You won't be fiddling with the thing all day because of a jam and I've seen that countless times with AR's with less than stellar reputations.

For varmints it depends on the exact varmint what bullet is big enough IMO. I'm not going to use a .22 magnum on a coyote at 400 yards but for p'dogs at 100 yards I probably would. I don't think you need a 30.06 to kill coyotes at 400 yards either. A .223 will do it if you have the right .223 where you can put bullets in vital areas. I've also seen a lot of AR's that won't put the bullet on the money at 400 yards. They will be close but no cigar. With a good bolt action, and the brands are almost endless, you can knock down a coyote with a .223 easy. And .223 ammo is way cheaper than most other ammo and it won't burn up barrels like certain other calibers. A .220 Swift for example has a reputation of burning up barrels in a big hurry. They shoot really hot which makes the bullet get out to 400 yards like it's a laser beam. But it will burn up a barrel in about 1500-2000 rounds too. A .22-250 is also a barrel burner though not quite as bad as a .220 Swift. I considered both of those calibers when I bought my Savage but I went with the .223 because barrel life is about double those other calibers. There's nothing like firing a round at 4000 fps and seeing it zip straight to a target 400 yards away but there's nothing like replacing a barrel every 1500 rounds either.

[polishshooter]

Originally Posted by CJ_56

A .220 Swift for example has a reputation of burning up barrels in a big hurry. They shoot really hot which makes the bullet get out to 400 yards like it's a laser beam. But it will burn up a barrel in about 1500-2000 rounds too. A .22-250 is also a barrel burner though not quite as bad as a .220 Swift. I considered both of those calibers when I bought my Savage but I went with the .223 because barrel life is about double those other calibers. There's nothing like firing a round at 4000 fps and seeing it zip straight to a target 400 yards away but there's nothing like replacing a barrel every 1500 rounds either.

Sorry, but that is passing along an 'Old Wive's Tale' (Old Shooter's Tale?) from guys who want to justify buying anything OTHER than a Swift.

The Swift was the oldest and first, as well as the hottest .22 centerfire ever developed, in 1935. In 1935 the .30-30 was still considered "hot" and Savage ws still getting mileage out of the .250-3000, since 3000 fps was considered unGodly fast....then comes a factory round hitting 4100.....WOW

But then everybody starts reading the gun mags, saying it will work for anything, from mice to Elk to Bears and everybody buys one....and some actually report spectacular one shot kils on Elk at 400...

But then the failures start, guys start badmouthing it because it ISN'T a Elk rifle...

Then the phenomenal accuracy starts to drop off, and "it's a barrel burner...." Then NOBODY wants one, and just like EVERYBODY thought it was a "Kill anything that moves rifle" at first, (it wasn't) now "everybody" calls it a "barrel burner." (it isn't.)


The problem is everybody cleaned their Swifts cack then like they cleaned their .30-30s, with the same oil and solvents they had been using since blackpowder days....the REALLY good copper removing solvents had not been invented yet. And yeah it's a simple fact, the faster a gilded bullet travels through a barrel, then more of that metal gets left behind....and your .223 will do it too, I hate to tell you.

The OTHER factor is barrel heat. YES the faster the bullet is traveling, the faster the barrel heats up, and when a barrel gets hot, the groups get bigger, it's a fact of life with any rifle, but the Swift will get to that point quicker than any...but that's why you monitor the heat, and when the barrel is too hot to touch, you put it aside to cool, and it will be just as accurate cool as it was before.....THAT is why you don't see any Swifts (or -250s!) with a 30 round mag in an AR or AK package But your AR WILL do the same thing-try shooting a group AFTER you put just one 30 round mag is put through it rapidly....

If YOU don't clean it properly, YOUR barrel will "burn out in 1500 rounds" too....

Guys STILL make good money buying Swifts from yahoos supposedly with "shot out barrels" for a song, and just CLEANING them well and reselling them with all their accuracy back.

Bottom line is, the life and accuracy of a Swift barrel with proper care will last as long as ANY highly accurate centerfire rifle, for about the same amount of rounds before any replacement barrel is necessary.

[CHW2021]

No slight to the .22 crowd, but I still feel the 30 cal is the more flexible option.
The "barrel burning" issue is most generally a problem for the guys who load to "super fast" velocities and cook the throat of the barrel with their pet loads. I do agree with the above post, but it must be pointed out that there are a bunch of guys that want to load for a 4000+++ fps mark that is going to take a toll on any gun.

With the 30-06 you can fire a 110-130 grain bullet for "critters" and a heavier weight bullet for anything else in north America. If you want to take out a Peterbuilt, find same ap rounds, the sky is the limit for loads in this caliber.

As far as a scope, I would not be afraid to try a Tasco (their quality has greatly improved) for the price they are not a bad optic. Otherwise, Nikon and Pentax have scopes in a fair price range (-300.00) that would be perfectly fine.

[polishshooter]

Originally Posted by CHW2021

No slight to the .22 crowd, but I still feel the 30 cal is the more flexible option.
The "barrel burning" issue is most generally a problem for the guys who load to "super fast" velocities and cook the throat of the barrel with their pet loads. I do agree with the above post, but it must be pointed out that there are a bunch of guys that want to load for a 4000+++ fps mark that is going to take a toll on any gun.

With the 30-06 you can fire a 110-130 grain bullet for "critters" and a heavier weight bullet for anything else in north America. If you want to take out a Peterbuilt, find same ap rounds, the sky is the limit for loads in this caliber.

As far as a scope, I would not be afraid to try a Tasco (their quality has greatly improved) for the price they are not a bad optic. Otherwise, Nikon and Pentax have scopes in a fair price range (-300.00) that would be perfectly fine.

You are right about loading down, it deifinitely at LEAST saves powder and you can find about the same accuracy you get with the Swift at 3900-4000 down there in high .223 velocity ranges...


But I never got the thinking on that...would you buy a Vette or a Camaro or a Mustang and put a 4 or a 6 cylinder in it to save FUEL, or TIRES????

If you WANT .223 velocities, why not buy a .223 in the FIRST place? I never got that line of thought, even though it DOES work.....

And my buddies were doing that with their .22-250s too, but it is funny they are talking about kicking theirs back up next year.... I think after shooting the Swift with my hotter loads this year they might have been bitten by the speed bug again...

I bought the Swift for ONE reason...to HIT 4000 or come darn close, and the accuracy AND the spectacular blow ups on P-dogs at any range...


And my next rifle for that will be a .223 or probably even a .222....for when the Swift is cooling ...AND when I'm walking around...


But you are right about the .30 cal...I posted that earlier, for a FIRST rifle, especially for medium to large game or human threats, it would be a better choice...which is why I suggested a .308 earlier.

[CHW2021]

Please correct me if I am wrong, the "max" factory load velocity is about 3900 to 4100 fps, correct? What I was more referring to is the hot handloads that are in excess of that or built with excess amounts of an incorrect powder.

Kinda like putting nitrous and a supercharger on your vette, sorta excessive and something is going to give.

[3/2 STA SS]

Originally Posted by JLA

I paid 500 for mine and I got lucky.

At 500 yes you did...