TUBB Final Finish

[Bigr Bang Thry]

Has anyone here ever used the TUBB Final Finish system ?

I hava a 7mm Rem Mag ( Remington 700 BDL stainless/synthetic ) that I just can't get to shoot very well. It gets loaded up with copper fouling after only a few rounds, and is a bitch to get clean. The rifle has about 350 rounds through it now, but still accumulates copper fouling at an unusually high rate. I'm thinking of fire-lapping it with the TUBB Final Finish system. As I understand it, the system works like this : The box of 50 projectiles are coated in 5 different grades of an abrasive lapping compound. You are supposed to load the bullets with a light powder charge, and fire them, cleaning as you go. As you progress through the bullets and gradually finer abrasives, the bore gets the tool marks honed out of it. It sounds plausible, I've heard of fire-lapping before, but does it really work withoud doing damage to the gun ?

If you have knowledge about this, PLEASE SHARE !!

[steve4102]

Yes, I have used it on a really rough Mini-30 bore. The bore is .310 and I was told to use the .308 kit. It worked well, copper fouling was reduced and accuracy increased. If They made a .310 kit it may have done even better. I would use it again if I find myself with another rough barrel.

[JLA]

I use it extensively as a proprietary break in process I developed my self for "breaking in" ANY barrel new or used..

Simply clean the barrel thoroughly as the instructions decribe, but instead of shooting 10 then cleaning between abrasive grits, shoot one then clean between each shot for the first 2 grit levels, for a total of 20 shots, then do 5 round groups for the next 2 grits and the final grit level do a 10 shot string and finish with a cleaning. Do this with all barrels that have never been "tubb'd" as i call it. I have taken average run of the mill factory barrels and made them shoot fanfreakintastic using this product and my rather anal retentive method of applying it..

[Bigr Bang Thry]

Yeah, I thought that I would probably clean the barrel thoroughly after every shot for the first two or three abrasive levels. It only seems the right thing because the lapping compound has to touch the barrel, not the fouling from the last bullet in order to do any good.


Thanks for your input, guys. I guess I'll be giving MIDWAY a call. ( I don't really like calling them...They're alot like the LAY'S potato chip commercial, you know ? You can't just order ONE thing ! )

[jedwil]

I am going to give the preloaded kit a try. I have an new, unfired Savage Model 10 Precision Carbine in .223. Hope it works as advertised.

[JLA]

I need that rifle John. They are hard to find these days..

[howlnmad]

I've been thinking about loading some to see if they would clean up the bores in my 30-40 and 303. Any comments?

[JLA]

They will do just that howln. Be sure to get the 308 kit for the .30-40 and the .311 kit for the .303.

[Bigr Bang Thry]

So, last Monday night I called Midway... I got off easy, because I only ordered TWO items ! Thursday afternoon the big brown truck rolls up and drops off my package. I spent some time reading the TUBB instruction sheet, and the box carefully. I noticed a slight discrepancy, so I called TUBB to confirm. The gentleman answered all my questions, and gave me further advice. The system is supposed to work best when muzzle velocities are kept between 2200 and 2500 FPS.( rifle ). I spent a great deal of time looking for a powder and charge that would provide such a slow velocity. In an old book from IMR, I found a listing for IMR 4227 and 35 gr giving a velocity of just over 2400 FPS. Perfect ! The start charge of 32 gr is what I plan on using, and best of all, I have IMR 4227 on the shelf ! So now the fun starts. I get to load the rounds and go to the range. I bought a BIG bottle of Barnes copper solvent, and a handfull of bronze brushes. Over the next couple weeks, I'll get the work done, and find out how well it helped. I'll keep you informed of the progress.

[steve4102]

I bought a BIG bottle of Barnes copper solvent, and a handfull of bronze brushes.

Get ya some Wipe-Out. Forget the copper solvents and the bore brushes, hard work and mediocre results at best. Foam the bore with Wipe-Out, let it sit then patch it out. Done, no more copper, no more scrubbing and no more smell.

[Bigr Bang Thry]

WIPE OUT ? Who makes it ? I tried the Gunslick foaming stuff...JUNK. The best copper solvent I've used is the Barnes CR-10, which is supposed to be identical to Sweet's ( which I've used before as well ). I bought the Barnes because I got a smokin' deal on the big bottle. I have never seen WIPE-OUT, but I'll look for it at another shop.



On another note, can anyone confirm that the 35gr load of IMR 4227 is indeed safe ? I looked everywhere for confirmation, but cannot find it. I understand that as a general rule, a charge that only fills the cartridge to about 50 % and gives such low velocities would not be considdered an appropriate powder choice, and therefore not listed. The book that I got that data from was the free IMR hand-out with a print date of May 2001. IMR is no longer made in Plattsburgh, N.Y. It is made in Australia, and is part of Hodgdon/Winchester/IMR. I will be calling IMR on Monday to see if they will confirm that the load is safe to use. I tried to call them Friday, but they are closed on fridays. The web site does not list IMR 4227 at all for use in the 7mmRem Mag. So, I'm stuck waiting until Monday before I can do anything with this.

[JLA]

I always just use a starting charge of the fastest powder i have on hand thats listed for the bullet weight in the cartridge im loading the tubb load in. Get perfect results every time.

[steve4102]

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/784...t-5-oz-aerosol

[jedwil]

Originally Posted by JLA

I use it extensively as a proprietary break in process I developed my self for "breaking in" ANY barrel new or used..

Simply clean the barrel thoroughly as the instructions decribe, but instead of shooting 10 then cleaning between abrasive grits, shoot one then clean between each shot for the first 2 grit levels, for a total of 20 shots, then do 5 round groups for the next 2 grits and the final grit level do a 10 shot string and finish with a cleaning. Do this with all barrels that have never been "tubb'd" as i call it. I have taken average run of the mill factory barrels and made them shoot fanfreakintastic using this product and my rather anal retentive method of applying it..

Josh, you clean with a solvent and fire through a dry barrel?

[JLA]

Clean with either butchs bore shine or Montana extreme then patch dry and lube with Kano Kroil. Lightly lube..

[jedwil]

Originally Posted by JLA

Clean with either butchs bore shine or Montana extreme then patch dry and lube with Kano Kroil. Lightly lube..

Thanks...

[Bigr Bang Thry]

PROGRESS REPORT:
After speaking with rep from IMR/Hodgdon/Winchester powders, they could not confirm that IMR 4227 was a safe load. I then once again called TUBB and spoke with them about how critical velocity was, and their reply was that the slower, the better. They suggested using IMR Trail Boss and filling the cartridge to the shoulder. IMR confirms that this is acceptable.

I bought a can of Trail Boss, and loaded the first ten rounds with 23.0 gr. The case will hold just over 24 gr when filled to the bottom of the neck.

I went to the range twice this week after work, and fired 5 rounds each day, cleaning thoroughly between each round. Now I'm ready to load the second group of bullets, and do it all again.

Details to follow...

[JLA]

Ive done the TB route as well. Problem is the velocity os so low that the POI isnt sufficient to set a scope up in the process. I like to kill the 2 birds with 1 stone and get the scope dialed in while im doing the barrel. I did my remage .243 with TB and all the bullets keyholed, the barrel came out perfect but the scope didnt get set up..

[karlrudin]

A note on imr4227. Lyman says max for 7mmMag is 34gr for a CAST LEAD BULLET. This caught my eye because it was the same powder w/about the same charge the completely destroyed a Remington made Springfield 30-06A3 I was shooting. I still have brass in face to prove it. Be very careful. Nobody should have to go through that experience. So if these bullets y'all are talking about aren't cast lead, dont do it. Took me two months to see again.

[Bigr Bang Thry]

Another progress report:

The second group of ten bullets have been fired with a thorough cleaning between each one, and the third group has been loaded, ready to go back to the range again. Between the recent rain and getting other things taken care of, it may be Wednesday at the earliest this week that I'm able to get out to shoot and clean for a few hours ( weather permitting ), but so far, the rifle seems as though it's starting to clean easier. The Trail Boss is working well, but that is some DIRTY powder.

More details to follow...

[JLA]

It is aint it. very sooty for a light white powder.

Now that youve progressed thru the 2 coarsest grits youve just about removed all the tool marks in the barrel. the next 3 stages are polishing and burnishing. By the time you do the fifth stage those patches will 'squeak' down the bore, even when it fouled..

[Bigr Bang Thry]

So, here's the latest...

Groups 3 & 4 have been sent down range with a thorough cleaning after every other shot. Group 5 has been sent down range with a cleaning after the 5th shot and again at the end of the group. After that, I put 20 rounds of factory ammo through the rifle, stopping at 10 to give the bore a quick swabbing with Powder Blast, and to look for any signs of copper fouling. I could not see any copper at that point. After the 20th round, again I swabbed with Powder Blast and looked for copper. There was a light amount of copper showing, but definately not as much as previously encountered. A thorough cleaning with Barnes solvent showed that there was some copper fouling, as the patches became blue in color. It was, however, much easier to remove than before the fire lapping system.

I will again try a bunch of different factory ammo to see if the gun likes any of it, and then attempt to tailor a custom round for the gun. Time will tell if the system had any great effect or not. I can only hope that it helped. I've got too much time and money tied up in this gun if it won't shoot well.

Just a question for those of you familiar with this round, How accurately would you expect this rifle to shoot ? This is a Rem 700 BDL, with a Leoupold VX-2 (4-12 x 40). The bases and rings are both Leoupold, and are both steel. Am I perhaps expecting too much out of the 7mmRem Mag ? I should think that 1" 5-shot groups at 100 yards would be quite reasonable. I don't expect 1-hole groups, but of the factory ammo that I've tried in this gun, the smallest 10-shot group was just under 2" at 100 yards. Many of them were considerably larger, some over 8" ! The smallest group of handloads previous to the Tubb system was 1-1/2 ". I think the gun should do better, don't you ?

[JLA]

Bed it and float it and it will shoot better than 1" at 100 yds. If you are having issues with grouping at this point its likely not the rifle its self unless it has a headspacing issue