Antique Muzzleloader 1800's - The Firearms Forum

Widegren · 12-12-2011, 07:30 PM

I have recently purchused a black powder antique muzzleloader. The person whom I bought this from is an Civil War dealer and could not tell me much about the gun except it was passed down and sat in some closet for as long as they could remember. I wanted to learn more about the gun so I took it to a local gunsmith and had it looked over. The gunsmith could not find a makers mark even after removing the barrel and plate. He thinks the stock is made from maple or walnut. It is a .45 caliber percussion heavy barrel half stock with mock tigerstrip and decoration to the butt stock but no patch box. The lock has some simple engravings on it with the initials R. H, R. B or R. E, the rest is rubbed off over the years. The ramrod has been replaced and the rear sight looks to be a dovetailed. The hammer has been brazed with brass. There is a skull and crossbone inlay under the stock above the trigger. It appers to be brass as well. It is a 50" musket with a 34" barrel. When the barrel was removed there was no makers mark found. The barrel is rifled. All and all the gun is in good condition, the hammer will cock and the double set trigger makes it a hair trigger. The nipple and barrel have a little rusting. I am interested in finding out more information on the skull and crossbone and the gun itself.

dcriner · 12-12-2011, 08:26 PM

Probably a fake.

jack404 · 12-12-2011, 08:31 PM

i nthink its a resto a mix of repairs replacement parts ( the trigger guard with a casting like that on that nice wood?? )

i'd say it was once a flintlock then was converted but beyond that hard to say

the Skull and crossbones plate can be bought online at a few places ,

check out biker type shops and similar

my first thought on it is a kit rifle due to the trigger guard but , have no idea after staring at it for 20 mins

hrf · 12-12-2011, 08:49 PM

I doubt it was converted from flint as looks like a typical mid-19th century half stock. But the skull & crossbones emblem is crudely inletted and almost certainly it and the odd decoration on right side of stock were added by some subsequent owner.

Hawg · 12-13-2011, 04:30 AM

The stock is short even for a halfstock. The barrel is pinned where most halfstock barrels are keyed. The nosecap looks modern and the decorations are fairly recent. If it is original it's a cut down fullstock IMHO. It's not a kit, even a kit wouldn't have mismatched pieces. I don't think any reputable CW dealer would have looked at it twice.

hrf · 12-13-2011, 05:41 AM

Hawg, the barrel has an under rib so it's not a cutdown fullstock. And the pewter nosecap is not unusual on mid 1800s guns. But a bare bones economy grade at any rate, that lost value when the tacky decorations were added.

rhmc24 · 12-13-2011, 05:51 AM

hrf & Hawg just about said it all. It's the 'bubba' remains of what was once a 'plains rifle' of mid 1800s. Considering the proportions of fore-end and locations of ramrod pipes, probably of original length. Never a flintlock.

Buffalochip · 12-13-2011, 07:47 AM

The marking on the lock is the letters R. B. on a scroll. I've never found any information on this lock maker, but he was quite prolific. The pinning is typical of guns of this era--mid 18th century. I have two rifles and a fowler with half stocks that are pinned--not at all unusual.

I suspect it is quite heavy and if the rifling is good, it is probably a good shooter. Yes, the decorations hurt it a bit, but they may be period, so don't sweat that too much. The screw holding the triggerguard on is definately modern. I'd find a period screw and replace it. The stock is maple with what appears to be a wash stain to immitation tiger-stripe, or curly, maple. This gun is probably from Western Pennsylvania or Ohio origin, about 1850-1870 or so. The butt plate appears to be of two pieces--the tip of the upper horn appears to be a different color, and was cast separately and applied. It appears to be a decent gun.

rhmc24 · 12-13-2011, 09:28 AM

Pinned vs keyed barrel --- A common barrel is usually pinned. A barrel with patent breech is usually keyed. The so-called 'patent' breech has a sort of hook breech plug that fits into a fitting with the tang and screw that stays in the stock. The purpose is so the barrel may be easily and quickly removed/installed for cleaning or to reduce in length for storage. Better quality mid 1800s rifles and pistol will have the patent breech.

jjmitchell60 · 12-13-2011, 10:46 AM

More pictures of back of lock, area around nipple with hammer cocked, close ups of nose cap (which pewter was used alot even back in teh 1700s), length of stock, and close up of how the under lug is attached would be of great help. By what is shown, what has been said it dead on. the skull and cross bones IMHO is not that old. The tacks were probably added not that long ago. One thing that lends me to believe put together out of different parts guns is teh mixing of brass and pewter. I have seen pewter used with iron furnoiture a lot but not with brass. Usually if a brass buttplate, then brass nose cap.

Hawg · 12-13-2011, 04:58 PM

The shape of the nose cap looks more like off of a TC Hawken than an original plains rifle.

Buffalochip · 12-13-2011, 08:43 PM

It is not unusual at all for gunsmiths to mix pewter caps with brass hardware. Looking over my shoulder, I have 3 of that configuration in my gun case--a squirrel rifle, boy's fowler and a chunk/pickett rifle--all from the mid 1800s. I agree with Hawg that the nose cap resembles that of a TC Hawken--I also have one of those (albeit brass) leaning against the wall.

However, whether or not the pewter nose cap is poured or attached with screws will tell the tale. If it is poured, I suspect it is original. The chunk/pickett riflle I have has the same lock with matching engraving and it is probably circa 1850. Also, if the nose cap came off another rifle, it was attached prior to the stain being applied or the stripping would have been obliterated as the wood was worked down to match the cap. If the forestock was shortened, the rib would likely show a demarkation line. Also, the thimbles are properly spaced for a forestock of that length.

More pictures please.

Hawg · 12-14-2011, 03:33 PM

The rib could have been added later.

Jim Hauff · 12-14-2011, 04:32 PM

The skull and crossbones medallion looks like one of the GRATEFUL DEAD's emblems. Perhaps Garcia got the idea from an 19th Century source.??...

Buffalochip · 12-14-2011, 08:25 PM

Left and right profiles of nosecap are asymetric (just noticed). We've apparently lost interest of orginal poster... Oh well...

Jim K · 12-14-2011, 09:47 PM

The skull and crossbones plate looks like it is, or was made from, a belt buckle.

The lockplate is not a conversion, but the hammer looks like it has been broken off and repaired by welding at some point. The trigger guard looks like it cracked lengthwise. It does not appear to be of the same quality as the rest of the gun.

Jim

hrf · 12-14-2011, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim K

The trigger guard looks like it cracked lengthwise. It does not appear to be of the same quality as the rest of the gun.

Jim

Jim, the appearance of the front trigger guard tang looks more like casting flaws not polished out than a crack to me, and it's also roughly inletted. It may be a replacement from Dixie Gun Works or similar source.

Jim K · 12-14-2011, 10:30 PM

Maybe, but either way it would not be something a competent gunsmith of the mid-1800's would turn out. The darned trouble with guns like that is that they first look good, but then you find some little thing that doesn't seem right, then you look deeper and find.... I could go on, but I think you know what I mean.

A good example is the "Colt" Single Action in "Colt Revolver Question / ID", a nearby thread. It looks beautiful until... well, take a look.

Jim

Widegren · 12-15-2011, 06:30 PM

Sorry for the delay, I have not had a chance to grab the camera with christmas just around the corrner. I have attached a few more pictures to take a look at. Thanks again for the help and advice.
Happy Holidays!

Buffalochip · 12-15-2011, 07:32 PM

Nose cap is poured, stock does not appear to be shortened. Beautiful plum patina on barrel, no evidence of it having been cradled in a longer forearm. Lock maker is RB in a scroll--no idea who he is, but I have its twin:
http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/show...ighlight=chunk.

Hammer was broken and brazed. Stock may have had a clear finish added. It appears to be original except for the trigger guard and those damn tack and skull and cross bones. Probably 1850-1880. Probably western PA or Ohio origin. How much does it weigh? If 12 lbs or more, it is probably an old chunk. If it hadn't been messed with, would probably be worth about a grand.

Widegren · 12-15-2011, 08:03 PM

I could not post all the pictures, but I added a fliker link with a lot better pictures. http://www.flickr.com/photos/cwidegren/

Buffalochip · 12-15-2011, 09:21 PM

So, you're a dealer? Gun is missing the dovetailed plate that the stock pin goes through, which is why the barrel is popping up--probably why the tang is broken. Pictures don't tell much else.

Widegren · 12-16-2011, 10:53 AM

I collect different items from the 1800's and enjoy learning as much as I can to help educate people about there past but, with this gun was a huge mystery to me with hard to read markings and alot of things that just would not add up, so I had a friend recommend asking the experts on a gun forum. This is my first firearm and you can bet not my last... My wife and I are looking at our first hand gun. There is a shooting range getting ready to open across the street from our house and I think we got the bug.

jerrysch · 09-27-2012, 07:59 PM

widegren I think I have the same gun as you

12-12-2011, 07:30 PM	#1
Widegren Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 4	Antique Muzzleloader 1800's I have recently purchused a black powder antique muzzleloader. The person whom I bought this from is an Civil War dealer and could not tell me much about the gun except it was passed down and sat in some closet for as long as they could remember. I wanted to learn more about the gun so I took it to a local gunsmith and had it looked over. The gunsmith could not find a makers mark even after removing the barrel and plate. He thinks the stock is made from maple or walnut. It is a .45 caliber percussion heavy barrel half stock with mock tigerstrip and decoration to the butt stock but no patch box. The lock has some simple engravings on it with the initials R. H, R. B or R. E, the rest is rubbed off over the years. The ramrod has been replaced and the rear sight looks to be a dovetailed. The hammer has been brazed with brass. There is a skull and crossbone inlay under the stock above the trigger. It appers to be brass as well. It is a 50" musket with a 34" barrel. When the barrel was removed there was no makers mark found. The barrel is rifled. All and all the gun is in good condition, the hammer will cock and the double set trigger makes it a hair trigger. The nipple and barrel have a little rusting. I am interested in finding out more information on the skull and crossbone and the gun itself. Attached Images -->

12-12-2011, 08:26 PM	#2
dcriner V.I.P. Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 238	Re: Antique Muzzleloader 1800's Probably a fake.

12-12-2011, 08:31 PM	#3
jack404 Former Guest Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Australia Contributor Posts: 17,622	Re: Antique Muzzleloader 1800's i nthink its a resto a mix of repairs replacement parts ( the trigger guard with a casting like that on that nice wood?? ) i'd say it was once a flintlock then was converted but beyond that hard to say the Skull and crossbones plate can be bought online at a few places , check out biker type shops and similar my first thought on it is a kit rifle due to the trigger guard but , have no idea after staring at it for 20 mins

12-12-2011, 08:49 PM	#4
hrf Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 2,281	Re: Antique Muzzleloader 1800's I doubt it was converted from flint as looks like a typical mid-19th century half stock. But the skull & crossbones emblem is crudely inletted and almost certainly it and the odd decoration on right side of stock were added by some subsequent owner.

12-13-2011, 04:30 AM	#5
Hawg Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 1,559	Re: Antique Muzzleloader 1800's The stock is short even for a halfstock. The barrel is pinned where most halfstock barrels are keyed. The nosecap looks modern and the decorations are fairly recent. If it is original it's a cut down fullstock IMHO. It's not a kit, even a kit wouldn't have mismatched pieces. I don't think any reputable CW dealer would have looked at it twice.

12-13-2011, 05:41 AM	#6
hrf Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 2,281	Re: Antique Muzzleloader 1800's Hawg, the barrel has an under rib so it's not a cutdown fullstock. And the pewter nosecap is not unusual on mid 1800s guns. But a bare bones economy grade at any rate, that lost value when the tacky decorations were added.

12-13-2011, 05:51 AM	#7
rhmc24 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Ardmore, OK Posts: 527	Re: Antique Muzzleloader 1800's hrf & Hawg just about said it all. It's the 'bubba' remains of what was once a 'plains rifle' of mid 1800s. Considering the proportions of fore-end and locations of ramrod pipes, probably of original length. Never a flintlock.

12-13-2011, 07:47 AM	#8
Buffalochip Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 754	Re: Antique Muzzleloader 1800's The marking on the lock is the letters R. B. on a scroll. I've never found any information on this lock maker, but he was quite prolific. The pinning is typical of guns of this era--mid 18th century. I have two rifles and a fowler with half stocks that are pinned--not at all unusual. I suspect it is quite heavy and if the rifling is good, it is probably a good shooter. Yes, the decorations hurt it a bit, but they may be period, so don't sweat that too much. The screw holding the triggerguard on is definately modern. I'd find a period screw and replace it. The stock is maple with what appears to be a wash stain to immitation tiger-stripe, or curly, maple. This gun is probably from Western Pennsylvania or Ohio origin, about 1850-1870 or so. The butt plate appears to be of two pieces--the tip of the upper horn appears to be a different color, and was cast separately and applied. It appears to be a decent gun.

12-13-2011, 09:28 AM	#9
rhmc24 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Ardmore, OK Posts: 527	Re: Antique Muzzleloader 1800's Pinned vs keyed barrel --- A common barrel is usually pinned. A barrel with patent breech is usually keyed. The so-called 'patent' breech has a sort of hook breech plug that fits into a fitting with the tang and screw that stays in the stock. The purpose is so the barrel may be easily and quickly removed/installed for cleaning or to reduce in length for storage. Better quality mid 1800s rifles and pistol will have the patent breech.

12-13-2011, 10:46 AM	#10
jjmitchell60 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Raised in Buzzard Roost near Frog Town in hillls of Kentucky Contributor Posts: 1,471	Re: Antique Muzzleloader 1800's More pictures of back of lock, area around nipple with hammer cocked, close ups of nose cap (which pewter was used alot even back in teh 1700s), length of stock, and close up of how the under lug is attached would be of great help. By what is shown, what has been said it dead on. the skull and cross bones IMHO is not that old. The tacks were probably added not that long ago. One thing that lends me to believe put together out of different parts guns is teh mixing of brass and pewter. I have seen pewter used with iron furnoiture a lot but not with brass. Usually if a brass buttplate, then brass nose cap. __________________ Oath Keepers NOT ON OUR WATCH www.oathkeepers.org 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -- Benjamin Franklin When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes Duty... Thomas Jefferson

12-13-2011, 04:58 PM	#11
Hawg Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 1,559	Re: Antique Muzzleloader 1800's The shape of the nose cap looks more like off of a TC Hawken than an original plains rifle.

12-13-2011, 08:43 PM	#12
Buffalochip Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 754	Re: Antique Muzzleloader 1800's It is not unusual at all for gunsmiths to mix pewter caps with brass hardware. Looking over my shoulder, I have 3 of that configuration in my gun case--a squirrel rifle, boy's fowler and a chunk/pickett rifle--all from the mid 1800s. I agree with Hawg that the nose cap resembles that of a TC Hawken--I also have one of those (albeit brass) leaning against the wall. However, whether or not the pewter nose cap is poured or attached with screws will tell the tale. If it is poured, I suspect it is original. The chunk/pickett riflle I have has the same lock with matching engraving and it is probably circa 1850. Also, if the nose cap came off another rifle, it was attached prior to the stain being applied or the stripping would have been obliterated as the wood was worked down to match the cap. If the forestock was shortened, the rib would likely show a demarkation line. Also, the thimbles are properly spaced for a forestock of that length. More pictures please.

12-14-2011, 03:33 PM	#13
Hawg Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 1,559	Re: Antique Muzzleloader 1800's The rib could have been added later.

12-14-2011, 04:32 PM	#14
Jim Hauff Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Lehigh Valley, PA Posts: 2,980	Re: Antique Muzzleloader 1800's The skull and crossbones medallion looks like one of the GRATEFUL DEAD's emblems. Perhaps Garcia got the idea from an 19th Century source.??... __________________ Jim Hauff ~ H&R Collector In Memory of Bill Goforth and Jim Ritchie

12-14-2011, 08:25 PM	#15
Buffalochip Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 754	Re: Antique Muzzleloader 1800's Left and right profiles of nosecap are asymetric (just noticed). We've apparently lost interest of orginal poster... Oh well...

12-14-2011, 09:47 PM	#16
Jim K Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 6,408	Re: Antique Muzzleloader 1800's The skull and crossbones plate looks like it is, or was made from, a belt buckle. The lockplate is not a conversion, but the hammer looks like it has been broken off and repaired by welding at some point. The trigger guard looks like it cracked lengthwise. It does not appear to be of the same quality as the rest of the gun. Jim

12-14-2011, 10:30 PM	#18
Jim K Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 6,408	Re: Antique Muzzleloader 1800's Maybe, but either way it would not be something a competent gunsmith of the mid-1800's would turn out. The darned trouble with guns like that is that they first look good, but then you find some little thing that doesn't seem right, then you look deeper and find.... I could go on, but I think you know what I mean. A good example is the "Colt" Single Action in "Colt Revolver Question / ID", a nearby thread. It looks beautiful until... well, take a look. Jim

12-15-2011, 06:30 PM	#19
Widegren Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 4	Re: Antique Muzzleloader 1800's Sorry for the delay, I have not had a chance to grab the camera with christmas just around the corrner. I have attached a few more pictures to take a look at. Thanks again for the help and advice. Happy Holidays! Attached Images

12-15-2011, 07:32 PM	#20
Buffalochip Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 754	Re: Antique Muzzleloader 1800's Nose cap is poured, stock does not appear to be shortened. Beautiful plum patina on barrel, no evidence of it having been cradled in a longer forearm. Lock maker is RB in a scroll--no idea who he is, but I have its twin: http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/show...ighlight=chunk. Hammer was broken and brazed. Stock may have had a clear finish added. It appears to be original except for the trigger guard and those damn tack and skull and cross bones. Probably 1850-1880. Probably western PA or Ohio origin. How much does it weigh? If 12 lbs or more, it is probably an old chunk. If it hadn't been messed with, would probably be worth about a grand. Last edited by Buffalochip; 12-15-2011 at 07:45 PM.. Reason: adding picture

12-15-2011, 08:03 PM	#21
Widegren Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 4	Re: Antique Muzzleloader 1800's I could not post all the pictures, but I added a fliker link with a lot better pictures. http://www.flickr.com/photos/cwidegren/

12-15-2011, 09:21 PM	#22
Buffalochip Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 754	Re: Antique Muzzleloader 1800's So, you're a dealer? Gun is missing the dovetailed plate that the stock pin goes through, which is why the barrel is popping up--probably why the tang is broken. Pictures don't tell much else.

12-16-2011, 10:53 AM	#23
Widegren Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 4	Re: Antique Muzzleloader 1800's I collect different items from the 1800's and enjoy learning as much as I can to help educate people about there past but, with this gun was a huge mystery to me with hard to read markings and alot of things that just would not add up, so I had a friend recommend asking the experts on a gun forum. This is my first firearm and you can bet not my last... My wife and I are looking at our first hand gun. There is a shooting range getting ready to open across the street from our house and I think we got the bug.

09-27-2012, 07:59 PM	#24
jerrysch Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1	Re: Antique Muzzleloader 1800's widegren I think I have the same gun as you