what the difference between .45 and .454 casull?

[focusmaniaczx3]

in my stupor tonight i find myself wondering what the difference is. i really want to lay my hands on a raging judge when they come out but at the same time i already have a 6 inch barrel judge with a 2.5 inch cylinder. and i already have another ultralight snubby judge with the 2.5 inch cylinder. i got the long gun to take in the woods and the snubby to keep in my pocket. so what would be the point of the raging judge? ive never fired a .454 casull but it must be the same size bullet as a .45 right? i dunno im a little messed up right now, hence my guns are all unloaded and locked up right now, but i just find myself wanting to know the exact difference between a .45 long colt and a .454 casull.

[bigbore480]

Originally Posted by focusmaniaczx3

in my stupor tonight i find myself wondering what the difference is. i really want to lay my hands on a raging judge when they come out but at the same time i already have a 6 inch barrel judge with a 2.5 inch cylinder. and i already have another ultralight snubby judge with the 2.5 inch cylinder. i got the long gun to take in the woods and the snubby to keep in my pocket. so what would be the point of the raging judge? ive never fired a .454 casull but it must be the same size bullet as a .45 right? i dunno im a little messed up right now, hence my guns are all unloaded and locked up right now, but i just find myself wanting to know the exact difference between a .45 long colt and a .454 casull.

A 454 is about three times the pressure and three times the recoil. soot one before you buy one. The recoil is about double a 44 mag.

[Alpo]

Physically, it's sorta like a 38 and a 357. The Casull is a twentieth of an inch longer (1.279 vs. 1.311). Power-wise, a Colt pushes a 250 grain bullet at around 800fps. Casull pushes a 300 grain bullet at 1600.

[focusmaniaczx3]

holy ****!
so the basic difference is that it shoots a slightly longer version of the same bullet a whole hell of alot faster? and 800fps sounds more like a .45acp. is that really the velocity that a .45 long colt gets? i thought it had more? in this case i think i really want one now.

i LOVE shooting recreationally. and every time i shoot a hand gun i always wish there was more bang. ive even thought about getting a 500S&W for that reason. this would be perfect for me then. i might loose the regular 6 inch judge and replace it with the raging model. THAT should knock a bear's head clean off if he were coming up a tree at me. what do you think the BANG! comparison between a .454 casull and a 500S&W would be?

[VegasTech702]

First off, both are revolver cartridges, not to be confused with a .45 ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol) like as in a 1911.

A .45 Long Colt will fit in the cylinder of a gun chambered in .454 Casull. A .454 Casull will NOT fit in a gun chambered for .45 LC. This is the same scenario as a .357Mag/.38Spec. As the previous post stated, the .454 Casull cartridge is a very powerful one that is often used in Large game pistol hunting.

The .45 Long Colt is the cartridge that was originally designed and used in the Colt Peacemaker single action revolver. It is not a bad cartridge to shoot, it can be stout with heavy loads but not wrist breaking or anything.

The Judge revolver from Taurus will take .45LC's or .410 Shotgun Shells. It is an innovative design and very popular. I do not however, care for Taurus revolvers. Their quality is junky and the customer service is an absolute joke. To each their own on that one.

[focusmaniaczx3]

well personal feelings for judge aside. the judge isnt exactly chambered for the 45LC. its chambered for the shotgun more. what would happen if you were to shoot a .454 out of a standard judge i wonder? is the .454 more than 2.5 inches long from primer to tip? if its not it SHOULD be able to be fired from a standard judge. im just curious if the gun would blow up in your hand

[ampaterry]

Originally Posted by focusmaniaczx3

well personal feelings for judge aside. the judge isnt exactly chambered for the 45LC. its chambered for the shotgun more. what would happen if you were to shoot a .454 out of a standard judge i wonder? is the .454 more than 2.5 inches long from primer to tip? if its not it SHOULD be able to be fired from a standard judge. im just curious if the gun would blow up in your hand

Perhaps "blow up with your hand" would be more accurate.

[hogger129]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.454_Casull

It's based on the .45 Colt. Basically it sounds like it's a .45 Colt with a lengthened and structurally improved casing. Kind of like the .357 Magnum compared to the .38 Special. Uses a rifle primer instead of a pistol primer because of the high pressures of the round.

[Alpo]

Yes, a 454 will fit in a judge. Howsomever, a 45 Colt has, around 14,000 psi of pressure. A 410 shotshell has around 12,000 psi. A 454 has around 55,000 psi.

Like ampaterry said, "Blow up with your hand".

[JLA]

Originally Posted by focusmaniaczx3

well personal feelings for judge aside. the judge isnt exactly chambered for the 45LC. its chambered for the shotgun more. what would happen if you were to shoot a .454 out of a standard judge i wonder? is the .454 more than 2.5 inches long from primer to tip? if its not it SHOULD be able to be fired from a standard judge. im just curious if the gun would blow up in your hand

for godsakes man dont do it. they arent proofed for that amount of pressure. The new raging judges are heat treated to handle the excessive pressure. the standard judges arent. the end result would be ugly im sure...

[focusmaniaczx3]

woof WTF i was boogered up last night. yeah that is a definite hell no on firing a 454 outa my gun. im making plans for trading in my judges for the new ones this year. my stubby 5 shooter for the new stubby 7 shooter and my 6 inch barrel for the RJM with 6 inch barrel. or i might just stick with the one i have and get a 500S&W lol

[JLA]

now yer talkin

[bigbore480]

Originally Posted by ampaterry

Perhaps "blow up with your hand" would be more accurate.

I have had a 454 super red hawk blow up in my hand. They are already hot rodded to maximum pressure and I have no doubt altering a judge to fire 454 would be a foolish and deadly decision. I shoot a 460 smith now, often using 454 ammunition. The smith is a much stronger pistol.

[JLA]

its always a better idea to fire the powerful cartridges in a gun built for even more powerful cartridges. Yet there are still folk that cram 357 mag load data into a .38 spec case and wonder why their guns go boom...

[LDJ]

Yes, a 454 will fit in a judge. Howsomever, a 45 Colt has, around 14,000 psi of pressure. A 410 shotshell has around 12,000 psi. A 454 has around 55,000 psi.

After reading this post I tried loading one of my 454's in my Judge. It will not go in enough to turn the cylinder. I believe you have to have a Raging Bull that is made to shoot the 454 to load a 454. The 410 goes in fine but not the 454. I did not want one of my Grand Kids getting confused and loading one in the wrong gun so I tried it.

[zant]

Small local shop has 2 Freedom Arms .454 revolvers for sale-each comes with a box missing 5 rds

[JohnnyFlake]

Originally Posted by focusmaniaczx3

well personal feelings for judge aside. the judge isnt exactly chambered for the 45LC. its chambered for the shotgun more. what would happen if you were to shoot a .454 out of a standard judge i wonder? is the .454 more than 2.5 inches long from primer to tip? if its not it SHOULD be able to be fired from a standard judge. im just curious if the gun would blow up in your hand

DO NOT DO THAT !!!!!!!

The chance is very strong, that the gun will be destroyed, along with your hand and who knows what else!!!

[Bindernut]

Originally Posted by focusmaniaczx3

what would happen if you were to shoot a .454 out of a standard judge i wonder? is the .454 more than 2.5 inches long from primer to tip? if its not it SHOULD be able to be fired from a standard judge. im just curious if the gun would blow up in your hand

I stole this pic that jack had posted in the Taurus Durability thread up in the pistol forum. It's not a Judge but a Thunder5...same basic gun though, chambered for .45Colt/.410. Some doofus touched off a .454Casull in it.

[jbrescue]

What about putting the 454 in the Magnum Judge? I assume that it still is not meant to handle the 454. Thus, the raging judge is sure to be a stout pistol.

[Bindernut]

Originally Posted by jbrescue

What about putting the 454 in the Magnum Judge? I assume that it still is not meant to handle the 454. Thus, the raging judge is sure to be a stout pistol.

Nope, the 3" .45/.410 Judge still isn't proofed for anything near .454 Casull specs either.

As Alpo already posted...here's a repeat from the SAAMI specs.
.454 Casull - 65,000psi (50,000cup)
.45 Colt - 14,000psi <-these are standard "Colt" loads, not Ruger or Contender level loads.
.45 Colt (Ruger loads) - 25,000cup
.45 Colt (Contender) - _________ I don't think there is a SAAMI pressure spec for these loads.
.410 2.5" - 12,500psi
.410 3.0" - 13,500psi

You're talking over three times as much pressure for the Casull. Even Ruger level .45Colt loads are not meant for the Judge.

Regardless of 2.5" or 3", the Judge is just based on a stretched version of the medium-frame Taurus (65/66, etc) and there's not a lot of extra meat to hold together when you put a 5-shot .45 cylinder in the frame.

The Raging Judge skips right over the large-frame and goes to the Raging Bull frame (extra large? ). Yeah it's a big lummox.
The .454/.45/.410 version uses a six-shot cylinder where the .45/.410 stuffs a seven-shot cylinder into the same frame. Even though it's on the Raging Bull frame, don't think about touching off a .454 in the 7-shot model.

[JLA]

I got a feeling that most folks would not shoot a .454 voluntarily after shooting one for the first time. They are not at all pleasant to shoot.; Honestly, if you need that much power, why not just get a rifle??

[jack404]

1st step to doing this is to get a disability insurance policy and make me a beneficiary

step 2

load away!!!

step 3 ambulance and other stuff but i'll be counting my money so wont notice

thats about how it should go but never does, all those who'd write me in have too much sense , dang ... all these idiots in the world and none as close friends

ya do know i'm joking . a .454 casull needs at least a 11.9 mm thick chamber with 4140 at 74 rockwell as a minimum
mueller in his action book stated 14.3 mm is his recommended minimum chamber thickness
ackerly made a note on these in his wildcat build book as very dangerous so made notes on what was needed as so many had been hurt

heres a drawing of a cross section of the barrel and fore stock just forward of the chamber ( about 3/4" forward )

see how thick it is ??

from the mueller book building a single shot falling block rifle, large cal ed

[RandyP]

From a practical standpoint factory ammo for the 'cannons' is VERY pricey. Reloading is almost a must just to be able to fire the things now and then, let alone enough to be proficient. Regardless of the size on the bullet, misses don't count and at over a buck a pop, you want to have hits - lol

For some, ammo money is not a big deal, for a lot of us it is. Unless I decided to be a hunter or long range steel shooter, I doubt I'd own one of the Casulls or the 500's. They are more a one-time novelty for me and my LGS range rents them should I get the need for big bangs.

[Bindernut]

Originally Posted by JLA

I got a feeling that most folks would not shoot a .454 voluntarily after shooting one for the first time. They are not at all pleasant to shoot.; Honestly, if you need that much power, why not just get a rifle??

I'll take a .454 out of a Freedom Arms single-action over any .500S&W out of an X-frame.
I think a Raging Bull or the Super Redhawk in .454 would rank right up there with the .500 X-frame as far as being brutal....the DA grip frame doesn't allow the roll up without snapping your wrist along with it.
Out of a good single-action "plow handle" grip the .454 really isn't as bad as it should be considering the power level. I've done a couple cylinders full in one session. It didn't scare me off completely but I'm not rushing out to buy my own either.
Don't think I'd want to touch off a .500 out of anything though...I've seen a couple locally and it's one of those "one shot per range session" guns.

BUT...since I don't need the horsepower, I'll pass on all of the BIG magnum revolver cartridges. Even a Super Redhawk is a lot more weight than I'd want to carry around. I agree with ya Josh...if you need that much power, grab a rifle.

[JLA]

Ive owned them all. and the biggest handgun round i shoot is .44 mag, and its from a rifle. The most powerful handgun round I shoot form a handgun is .357 mag.

I didnt find the X frame .500 that bad. the size of the grip and functional muzzle brake help alot. not to mention the damn thing weighs as much as a light rifle anyway. But Ive had a .454 raging bull and a .480 raging bull. couldnt keep scopes on either of them. Recoil was brutal, muzzle blast was significant. And to this date the most uncomfortable handgun cartridge Ive ever fired was a .475 linebaugh in a T/C pistol. 425 gr bullet at damn near 1800 fps is stupid from a handgun. All of those crazy magnum handgun rounds are better fired from a lever action carbine or something similar. ay more control and alot less percieved recoil.. and since leveractions are proofed for rifle cartridges they usually do not have an issue with the powerhouse handgun rounds.