Unusual Kentucky Rifle , need info

[badflint]

I have a very beautiful Kentucky-style rifle that I believe was originally Flint. It came from CT but I am unsure of maker or actual origin. I have owned dozens of original BP rifles but this has a very unusual patchbox with engraving of Dutch PN style. feel fre to email timanddeb@q.com

[hrf]

Welcome to TFF.

Post your photos on this forum: http://www.antiqueguns.com/phorum/list.php?6
and you'll get opinions from some dedicated long rifle collectors.

Example: http://www.antiqueguns.com/phorum/re...9509#msg-19509

Too bad the shaft for hammer sheared off.

Is there no name or maker's mark on the barrel?

[deadin]

That is a nice long rifle!!
Is the trigger made of brass? If so, it might be from upper NY.
Also, do you have the hammer? The shaft can be rebuilt.

[badflint]

Hammer lost, trigger gard and all furniture brass. I think it comes from PA but have never found a flintstyle patch box with an oval lid especially with this extra large patchbox

[Hawg]

That lock plate was never flint but he whole thing could have been changed out. That sure is a long toe plate.

[badflint]

Very long plate I thought the lock plate was flint because the upper half has been ground out to accomodate the drum which appears to have been added. It also has a flint-style main spring and two lock plate bolts.

[badflint]

I think the patch box andd engraved brass pieces are the most striking and unusual parts of the rifle. It is hard to date, I have owned several original flinters and this one has the earelier brass furniture and butt plate is about 1800s, single trigger, and thimbles are all indicators of an older piece. I have found that there are no hard fast rules concerning the use of flint style patch boxes and cap boxes. For a short period of time I owned a beautiful Kentucky from Burkesville ky. It was made by an old gunsmith in the 1890s, was percussion, and had a beautiflu 9" engraved flint-style patch box. He just perferred them to cap boxes.

[rhmc24]

I'd like to see a close up of the lock before being sure about flint or not. It looks like it might have a remnant of the pan around the drum.

Interesting also that a gun of its quality doesn't have a set trigger.


EDIT: HAWG is right re no hole plug evidence --- another reason for a close up.

[Hawg]

The plate being obviously cut down does point to it being converted but I'm not seeing any extra holes in the plate where the flint parts were removed.

[Big Shrek]

Patch box reminds me of some old East India Trading Company work...
might have been done by a former sailor

Too bad there aren't many markings to track with...also look UNDER a few things...might be a few surprises there...

[badflint]

I hope later this week I can add more photos of the inside of lock mechanics and the other side of the stock. I have not had the time to do this. I also will l;ook for additional markings. Would you call this a patch box (flint) or a cap box?

[Buffalochip]

I think it was definately a flintlock at one time. There is a notch in the wood just above the lock which is there for clearance of either a percussion hammer or flintlock "cock." Since notches for a percussion hammer usually go all the way back to where the hammer would be on full cock, this notch must be clearance of the lower jaw of the cock, which means flintlock.

The box is a patch box, but it could be used for caps, cleaning jag, etc. From time to time you will find patch boxes on percussion rifles--sometime they were converted flintlocks, sometimes they were transitional pieces, sometimes it was just some backwoods gunmaker's preference. However, I suspect very few flintlocks would have cap boxes. (i'd say "never have cap boxes," but I'm sure there is one out there somewhere).

[Maine04657]

Nice one.

[badflint]

I wonder if this is very authentic well made Hawken-style ( hook and breech) 50 caliber rifle. The length is about 57” with around a 40”barrel. It has rifling still present. In addition to the patch boxt there are several engraved brass pieces, an extremely long toe plate, and numerous silver (real silver) inlays, most of the bras pieces are engraved and the inlay pins are copper.. It has double barrel keys with silver wedge plates. I have only found one maker who used an oval patch box lid on a flint style patch box. If you have the book “Steel Canvas by R.L.Wilson, look on page 34. You will find a similar rifle by Silas Allen. There is no name that I can find on my rifle. The stock is walnut/cherry with original finish still present. Unfortunately the silver pieces had been cleaned previously and brass patina is present on all brass pieces.




As mentioned earlier the stock could be cherry and the under rib is beautiful fluted and also made of wanut/cherry. Several have told me that the piece is definitely from New England, likely from a Massachusetts gunsmith. It follows the classic "plains style" architecture, but has numerous New England features. The grain by the cheek inlay looks an awfully lot like cherry (tight and red, with flecks in the growth rings) and not walnut." I have been unable to open patch box. The lid seems to be stuck and should be an easy fix. I did not want to take the patch box off the stock to fix the latch or spring. I was tempted to see what is inside because I can feel it has a bullet sized object in the box. I do not want to damage the screw heads to see what is inside. Nothing appears broken but the catch most likely needs adjusting. I just listed it on an auction site, I am keeping and selling some old pieces. It is aleays difficult to decide which ones go to help the family budget.