.303 rifle identification

[Modemagic]

Hi all! I'm by no means an expert at rifles so I'm hoping you all can help.

I recently inherited this (I'm told) a .303 rifle from my late father in law. I'm hoping with the pictures someone will be able to help identify this rifle.

Any and all help is appreciated! Thanks all!

[soundguy]

looks like one of them invisible guns the british special forces used?

[jack404]

when you get the pic's up we'll be happy to help

welcome aboard!!

[Modemagic]

Pics are here... :-/

[Modemagic]

And a few more pics here.

[Modemagic]

Sorry for the delay in pictures guys... that's what I get for trying to use the tablet instead of the desktop.

[jack404]

this could well be one of my butcher jobs

its a 1944 rebuilt in 47 ( total refurbished stamped on it )

now sporterised

value not a lot take off $100-$200 for the sporterising job from a decent quality original

lot of export markings

this is common a lot of folks bought these in budles of 100 and sporterised them for the local market

here i did similar turning many into 22/250's or 308's

looks like the original barrel so would say its still .303

[Modemagic]

Can you tell anything about who manufactured this rifle? I know my later father in law owned it for at least 35 years.

[jack404]

manufacturer can be traced by the numbers . give me a while and i'll get up my list and respond

[jack404]

Royal Ordnance Factory Maltby

[Jim K]

The rifle is (or was) a Rifle No. 4, Mark 1, made by BSA, Shirley, Code M47, in 1944.

The overstamp "ENGL" (England) is the country of origin (COO) mark required for import into the U.S. The COO instead of the current import mark indicates the rifle was imported into the U.S. prior to 1968.

The rifle has been heavily modified, including working the magazine over to reduce its capacity from the original ten rounds to (probably) five to comply with hunting laws. Value is in the neighborhood of $100 or so, purely as a hunting rifle. Its collector value has been destroyed and cannot be restored.

The sporter stock is a Bishop; that company, now out of business, made a wide variety of sporter stocks for military surplus rifles. They were of good quality and sold at a reasonable price.

HTH

Jim

[nmckenzie]

The sling swivel mounted on the triggerguard's forward screw, plus what appears to be the rear "pad" of a No.32 Scope's mounting fixture, would seem to suggest this old warhorse started life as a No.4 Mk.1(T) sniper rifle.

[Jim K]

Good call. Again, my definition of "sporterizing" - taking a $1200 rifle, making a $100 rifle out of it, and spending $500 to do so.

JIm

[nmckenzie]

Don't want to add insult to sporterized injury, but the Williams WGOS rear sight is mounted backwards.

[Modemagic]

I'm a bit confused on the magazine. From what I can tell there is no place to put one, with only a single shot when I pull the bolt back?!?!

Also, can someone explain a bit more about sporterizing a rifle?

The rear sight is mounted backwards? Just the top portion or the entire thing?

Based on what what others have said above, this started life as an old military weapon but has since moved on to civilian use?

As you call can tell I really know zero about this and just about any other gun. The last gun I can even recall shooting was 20+ years ago in the boy scouts and it was nothing more than a .22

[nmckenzie]

Originally Posted by Modemagic

I'm a bit confused on the magazine. From what I can tell there is no place to put one, with only a single shot when I pull the bolt back?!?! The rear sight is mounted backwards? Just the top portion or the entire thing?

Last question first; the entire rear sight, top & bottom portions, is reversed, which is not to say it couldn't be used that way. As to the magazine, or lack therof, it's hard to tell from the photos what's in the magazine well - ahead of the triggerguard bow. The magazine release is present - it's that spring loaded tab immediately ahead of the trigger. Your reference to single shot has me wondering whether the usual 10 round magazine has been replaced with a single shot adapter for match shooting. If you depress the magazine release, what - if anything - slides out of the magazine well? If you want to see what this rifle looked like as originally issued, hop on Google/Image and tap in Enfield No.4 Mk.1(T). The 1(T) variation of the No.4 was a sniper rifle.

[nmckenzie]

p.s. to previous. You'd asked about the term "sporterizing". In a very broad sense this usually means taking a standard issue military rifle, such as your No.4, and removing or modifying just about everything not needed for sporting use - bayonet lug, several inches of barrel length, and so forth. It usually also means the addition of a scope or commercial sights - such as the WGOS on your rifle. These additions involve drilling and tapping, which makes restoration to original military condition problematical. The forend of your rifle is original issue, but cut down and refinished to simulate contemporary sporting rifles, while the buttstock is a commercially manufactured replacement.

[Hawg]

Originally Posted by Jim K

Its collector value has been destroyed and cannot be restored.

The sporter stock is a Bishop;

True about the collector value but should be a good deer rifle.
Ummmm Jim, when did Bishop start using Fajen Butt plates?

[nmckenzie]

Originally Posted by Hawg

but should be a good deer rifle

Between Enfields and Ross's we've a number of .303s in our racks, one of which is my deer rifle; an unaltered 1945 vintage No.5 with original sling etc. - one of the so-called jungle carbines. Yes, I know, my collector compatriots out there are cringing at the thought, but I take very good care of this rifle. My better half, on the other hand, being more of a traditionalist, sticks to her Marlin .35 or .41 Mag single action.

[jack404]

whats wrong with the jungle carbine ??

does a good job , lotta piggys became bacon from mine ..

[nmckenzie]

Originally Posted by jack404

whats wrong with the jungle carbine ??

does a good job , lotta piggys became bacon from mine ..

Jack: Absolutely nothing at all wrong with jungle carbines, I love mine. The one presently nestled between a Long Branch No.4 Mk1* and Ross 1905 MkII*** is the nicest of many I've owned over the past 40+ years, so it's a keeper. It's ex-Malay Federation Police, matching numbers, great bore, and will hold minute of coffee can (1 lb.) at one hundred yards. Don't really need much more than that.

[Modemagic]

Here's a few pictures of the magazine area. Depressing the magazine release does nothing. The release doesn't even move and based on the filled in area of where I believe the magazine should go, I'm not surprised.

[nmckenzie]

Interesting. Looks like someone spent some time and effort converting the triggerguard's magazine opening into the floor of a five round internal box mag - sort of like you'd find in a Mauser 98, M1917 or M1903. With the bolt open, can you depress what appears to be a conventional magazine follower? I'm assuming it's being held up there by spring tension and pushing against the lips of what was once a ten round magazine. If the follower can be depressed, how far down will it go?

There are just two screws holding the triggerguard to the action - one up forward with the swivel attatched, and one aft of the trigger running from left to right. Remove these two and you should be able to rotate the triggerguard out of the stock - lifting he nose of the guard and pivoting it up and out. Once the guard's free you'll be able to see what's what with the spring and follower, and also lift the barreled action free of the forend. I honestly can't see anyone going to that much trouble modifying a guard just to end up with a single shot rifle. That said, once the guard's out of the stock, see if anything's jammed or rusted solid inside the magazine box shell.

[Jim K]

Hawg, Bishop used Fajen buttplates when I had an eye to brain to fingers disconnect.

AFAIK, that was the only time.

Jim

[Hawg]

Originally Posted by Jim K

Hawg, Bishop used Fajen buttplates when I had an eye to brain to fingers disconnect.

AFAIK, that was the only time.

Jim

OK Cool cuz I was wondering.