Ohio military weapon collector/dealer ?

[edprocoat]

I live in central Ohio and I wonder if anyone knows of a dealer who would asess/purchase an M1 carbine rifle. I took it to one guy who sells used guns at shows knowing tha he would want it cheap, he had a reproduction M1 Style carbine, looked similiar but the gun was hardly nothing like mine.He had it for sale for $600.00 and said it was not selling. I could understand why the stock was different, the receiver was different only the front sight looked real. This guy looked up values in a gun book that was from 2000 and showed various M1 carbine's from $1100.00 up to $2500.00 and added that he would never pay more than $300.00 for one as he did not know much about them.

The gun I have was my dads and I learned to shoot on it as a child. Its in great looking condition but it was kept in storage for the past 20 years. Dad is 82 years old, he served in Korea I do not know if this was the rifle he carried or if he brought it back with him. It has a savage receiver and an IBM stamped barrel. I am an avid shooter but to be honest this is an old rifle I would like to see a collector own it as I do not think that plinking with it or hunting is in its future, it should be preserved as the piece of history it is.

I do not want to get rich off it but I don't want to be ripped off either, any suggestions?

ed

[jack404]

got pic's ? folks here may be able to advise you if its original etc and value

[V509]

There is a gunshop between Camp Perry and Oak Harbor that is owned by a Vet and KNOWS M1's

[Jim K]

Better check the receiver marking again. Savage never made M1 carbines for the U.S. Army or, AFAIK, for the commercial market.

As noted above, some good pictures will help.

Jim

[jack404]

Timeline for the U.S. .30 Caliber Carbines

1940 Jun 15 Secretary of War issued orders for the development of a light rifle for support troops as an alternative to the 1911A1 .45 caliber pistol
1941 May - Sep Samples tested by U.S. Ordnance are submitted from:

Savage Arms
Woodhull Corp.
Colt
Harrington & Richardson (Reising)
Auto-Ordnance
Springfield Armory
Bendix Aviation (Hyde)
Winchester
Russel J. Turner (individual)
Sep 30 Board of Infantry trials officers announce the Winchester design had been chosen for adoption
Nov 11 Carbines based on the Winchester design manufactured by Winchester (5) and Inland (5) are submitted to Ordnance for testing
Dec 07 Ordnance completes the Ordnance drawings for manufacture of the parts and carbines, Pearl Harbor attack starts war in Pacific
Dec 11 Germany & Italy declare war on America
1942 June Inland starts production
September Winchester starts production
November Underwood & Rock-Ola start production, Inland adds first series of M1A1 production, first M1 Carbines see combat in North Africa
February Quality Hardware & National Postal Meter start production
April Standard Products starts production
May Saginaw starts production, inherits Irwin-Pedersen contract & takes over IP facility at Grand Rapids
August IBM starts production
1943 October Inland completes first series of M1A1 production
1944 April Underwood, Quality Hardware, National Postal Meter*, Standard Products*, and Saginaw completes production
May Rock-Ola & IBM complete production, Inland starts second series on M1A1 production
May Inland completes second series on M1A1 production
May FN Belgium begins converting M1's to M2's under U.S. Ordnance control
1945 April Inland starts M2 production
May Winchester starts M2 production
May 5 War in Europe ends, FN completes M1 to M2 conversions
June FN Belgium begins carbine overhaul (inspect/rebuild) program under control of U.S. Ordnance
July U.S. Arsenals begin carbine overhaul (inspect/rebuild) program begins, conversion of some M1's to M2 begins
August 14 War with Japan ends
August Inland & Winchester complete all production, Springfield Armory assumes responsibility for entire carbine program
1946 June FN Belgium carbine overhaul program completed
1967 June Springfield Armory closes, carbine part acquisition turned over to U.S. Army Material Command
*July 1944 National Postal Meter as Commercial controls completes 239 carbines, Standard Products completes 150 carbines

[jack404]

Auto-Ordnance produced different prototypes for military rifle trials in the 1920s[3] and for the .30 carbine trials in the early 1940s[4] but these were not adopted by the military. Later during WWII, Auto-Ordnance established its own production plant in Bridgeport, Connecticut, and produced the M1928A1, M1 and M1A1 to augment production by Savage Arms for the military. Auto-Ordnance also made parts for other military firearms as a subcontractor for other manufacturers in WWII.

[jack404]

from the library of congress "history of american arms"

[jack404]

Savage made numerous parts and assemblies for many rifles in ww2 but the only ones marked savage i can find are the original samples made for selection

this may be one of those

savage later made the accepted winchester version and made parts for the auto ordinance made ones but where not marked savage

i'd look more into this one

[Alpo]

Jack, are you getting the M1 Carbine and the M1 Thompson confused? The M1928A1, the M1 and the M1A1 were all Thompsons.

Savage made Thompsons and Auto Ordnance made Thompsons, but it wasn't until years after Kahr bought AOC that they started to make Carbines. Bought the tooling from IMI.

[jjmitchell60]

Post good pictures of it please. I am 1 hour south of the Ohio River and know of collecters in this area. I am a FFL holder as well thus several customers who collect. Pictures will tell us exactly what you have, especially pictures of ALL markings and stampings.
IF it is one of the issued M1 Carbines, they are not going as high as you stated unless 100% correct grade AND of a rarer variety. A Commercial Comntrols Corporation one would be one to command a very high price being only 239 (estimate) were produced. What has hurt values but helped bring more to the public was the CMP and selling as many surplus rifles they can get. They sold M1 carbines for as little as $500 for the more common makes.
Now that is not to say you do not have a $2000 + M1 Carbine BUT to help solve if that is so or not, pictures of ALL markings on ALL parts including the stock are a must. IF you canot post pictures or do not know how, e-mail them to jack or mots anyone on the forum because we are always glad to help post pictures for people.
IF in deed a sample or one submitted by a company but not awarded a contract, then it could be worth far more than $2000!

[Jim K]

Savage did submit a light rifle in response to the Ordnance Department's request but, while it performed well (after replacement of a broken bolt) it was not adopted. But it was not an M1 carbine, nor was the M1 Thompson SMG.

A lot of confusion has resulted (then and now) because of the Ordnance Department's decision in the 1930's to change Ordnance nomenclature from the date (e.g., Model 1903) to the letter "M" and a sequential number starting with 1. The system was applied to all Ordnance equipment, which included tanks and vehicles, effective on the next new piece of equipment of a type adopted. So there was an M1 rifle, an M1 carbine, and M1 helmet, an M1 tank, an M1 SMG, and so on. So a poster here might write that he has an M1 and is puzzled when folks ask "Which M1?" In the service, the term "M1" used without qualification, usually meant the Garand rifle, but the context is inportant.

In recent years, the letter "M" remains, and the M16 rifle and M4 carbine are in sequence, that has not been true of other numbers. The M9 pistol was called that from its caliber; there was no M1-M8. Other weapons were given numbers on what amounted to the whim of a project officer.

Jim

[SGVictor]

High Standard light rifle trials prototype .30 carbine 1 of 2 known survivors. Trials won by Winchester design to become the M-1 Carbine. The primary Winchester designer Fred Humeston left Winchester for High Standard before his Winchester patents for the carbine were granted and after theh war was the head of design at High Standard.

[edprocoat]

Thanks for all the replies I will get some pics up as soon as I can get my camera out. I was researching this the other day and came across this site with some good info, but as usual no advice on what its worth. http://www.bavarianm1carbines.com/Serialnumbers.html

ed

[wonderwhippet]

The average M1 carbine sells for about $600 today. For it to sell for appreciably more, it would have to be something unusual. Only detailed photos will give us an idea of its value.

[Buffalochip]

Originally Posted by wonderwhippet

The average M1 carbine sells for about $600 today. For it to sell for appreciably more, it would have to be something unusual. Only detailed photos will give us an idea of its value.

Average? Average WW2 untouched original (rare) is worth considerably more the Average ww2 rearsenaled in the 1950s (relatively common).

[Jim K]

There are very few untouched original M1 carbines. All in service were upgraded with the bayonet lug, adjustable sight, modified magazine catch, 4-rivet handguard, round bolt, etc., sometimes more than once. Most (probably 95%) of the "original" carbines on the market have been retrofitted, often with repro parts.

A truly original WWII carbine in good condition (what museum has it been in?) would probably run $1500 or more.

Jim