What's a WWI 1911 Worth?

[Blimp Edwards]

Says right on Wikipedia that the gun I pictured is the first to use a slide, but Wikipedia's certainly been known to be wrong!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Browning_1900

Dan

[ozo]

"I'm trying to get a feel for what I need to save up. I know that I can find them online for asking prices in the $1500-$2500 "---Blimp Edwards

You already know the answer....
Do you want one for nostalgia reasons,
a collection, ..etc?
If not, I suggest a more modern arms.....

edit:
Phillippines made 1911's are clones, but awesome shooters.
Today, 1911's are abundant.....and priced from OK
to WTF......
only one way to know.....buy a s**tload of them....
ask Dan....
If you only want one....take Dan's advice in choosing.
He is our resident 1911 freak...er, I mean aficianado.

[Jim K]

Hi, Blimp,

My bad. I should have said the FN 1900 does not use the type of slide used on other Browning pistols that is an inverted "U" shape coming down over the whole top of the gun. The 1900 slide is partly inside the frame and uses a separate breechblock held in by screws, unlike the one piece slide/breechblock use on other Browning guns.

I do note on one site the old myth that a Model 1900 was used to assassinate Archduke Franz Ferdinand, starting WWI. Not true. The pistols used by the assassins were Model 1910 Brownings in .380 caliber.

Jim

[Blimp Edwards]

Gotchya.

So is there a good resource besides Clawson's Collector's Guide to Colt .45 Service Pistols? When you said splurge, I didn't think you meant to the tune of $250. Why is this book so expensive?

So if I were to show you this gun, what stands out to you? Granted you only have these pictures to work with. http://www.gunsamerica.com/997094428..._1911_COL.htm#

Dan

[Jim K]

Wow! I knew the so-called "big book" was into fancy prices, but if the small (146 pages) book is up that high, I am really astonished.

That gun pictured looks good to me. My only reservation would be on the grips which look too good and are the wrong color. The barrel seems to have been filed or sanded in some way I have not seen before, partly obliterating the P and H marks, though some at that time were pretty rough.

Jim

[RJay]

That barrel has been wire brushed, there are still some deep pits in it.

[Blimp Edwards]

Take a look at Clawson's books on Amazon. Crazy!

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_no...service+pistol

Dan

[TheGunClinger]

http://www.coolgunsite.com/ccorderform.htm
Try this site. It's where I got the small book with a cd that has the whole book on it.

[Double D]

I would do alot of shopping before I spent 2000 on one.

[Blimp Edwards]

The cd for $20 has the whole book on it?

I just threw that $2000 example out there as a curiosity. I have found some other examples that are tempting at some of the auction sites for under a grand. At that price, even if they turn out not to be a legit WWI era gun it seems like it's still an okay price for a 1911, supposing it shoots.

Dan

[TheGunClinger]

Originally Posted by Blimp Edwards

The cd for $20 has the whole book on it?

I just threw that $2000 example out there as a curiosity. I have found some other examples that are tempting at some of the auction sites for under a grand. At that price, even if they turn out not to be a legit WWI era gun it seems like it's still an okay price for a 1911, supposing it shoots.

Dan

Pretty much, although it is a pain to find what you are looking for which is why I like the book. I would rather have the big book but it is way expensive so I am content with the small book. Its still a pretty good deal what with the CD the Clawson book and that other book which didnt come with mine.. BTW, I got a 1943/44 Ithaca M1911A1 that is a parts gun. It has the correct frame and slide and most of the internals. The only parts on mine that are not Ithaca are the mainspring housing which has 9 ribs (I need a 7 rib) and the right grip which is a Colt. Looks almost like the Keyes grip that came with the Ithaca. With the Clawson book you can look up all those details and know what you got. Mine is in pretty good condition on the outside and the internals look new. I have a few pics in my album either on page one or two. Paid $400 for it with the Pilots shoulder holster and 1943 .45 ball ammo.

[Blimp Edwards]

Wow, that's really a price I can get behind. Where did you find it? Gun show?

Dan

[TheGunClinger]

I got it from a relatives boyfriend. Neither of us at the time knew anything about that gun so I offered $400 and he jumped at it. After that I got the Clawson book and have been learning mucho stuff about the M1911A1.

[Blimp Edwards]

Nice! Maybe I'll get lucky like that some day.

Dan

[Blimp Edwards]

What are your thoughts on this one? An "X" serial number?

( dot com link, am I not allowed to mention them? My apologies if so.)

Dan

[Jim K]

That gun is in terrible shape. It has been heavily rusted, wire brushed, then refinished. Further, at some point, its serial number was removed/obliterated and it was renumbered by an army depot or arsenal. ("X" numbers were used to replace serial numbers that had been obliterated.)

The current bid is $490 and IMHO it is probably not worth that, even as a shooter. It is certainly not worth any more.

Jim

[Blimp Edwards]

I agree. I feel like the MODEL OF 1911 US ARMY stamp seems phony, too. Like it was restamped. It's not like others I've seen which are very thin and not as deep.

Dan

[Blimp Edwards]

I think I'm picking up on a few things. I'm looking at a gun that seems to have an early frame with the more complex (Times New Roman?) font where it reads "UNITED STATES PROPERTY" mixed with a later slide that has a simpler font (Ariel?) where the patent info and "MODEL OF 1911 US ARMY" is stamped. Am I right? When did the font change?

Dan

[oldmedik]

hey guys, and double d lol, sarco has some old colts, ballester molinas, and the systema colts a few days ago. from 600 down, they were police issue, non military, but gorgeous old guns

martin

[Blimp Edwards]

Thanks for the tip, just took a look at them. Not bad at all! Though I'll probably hold out for a US Army model, just because that's really what I'm after. The ones they're selling are from an Argentina police department. Very tempting at those prices, though.

Dan

[crockett007]

Originally Posted by Blimp Edwards

I am interested in owning an original WWI 1911 and I'm trying to get a feel for what I need to save up. I know that I can find them online for asking prices in the $1500-$2500 area. However, I was at the local gun shop and they repeatedly scoffed at online prices, saying they often sell identical guns for substantially less.

So if I were to maybe forget the online scene and search for an example at a gun show or get lucky and find one at a gun store, or if I do look diligently enough online for that perfect deal, what can one be snagged for? I'm not made of money, so I'd be willing to buy one that is cosmetically flawed, perhaps seriously so, but of course I'd want one that still functions. Can they be had for less than my initial impression, or is that about the gist of it?

Thanks.

Dan

Be very careful here. There are two WW1 variant 1911's that are really woth anything. Those that were made with the carbonia blue finish, and the true "black army" finishes that were made through 1918. The black army Colts are very rare in that most were re-finished and re-issued, some serving into WWII before the A1's were issued. The serial range for a black army should fall in the 300-390K range, and because of the inferior frame polishing and cheap finish, are usually ugly guns with less than 10% of the original finish on them. This, believe it or not, makes them very desireable. The original two tone magazine is also very desireable and can double the collector value. The rampant Colt should be in the center of the slide roll mark, not at the rear. This was a gross error made by Colt with thier recent black army repro guns, in that the rampant Colt is found at the rear LH of the slide.

If the make date was in 1918, and the finish looks too good, then it has probably been US refinished and is only an $800 - 1K pistol, depending on overall condition. A true black army can bring 10K at auction.

[Jim K]

"some serving into WWII before the A1's were issued..."

Actually many 1911's served until replaced by the M9. The 1911 was never formally withdrawn from service, though technically they were issued in lieu of (ILO) M1911A1's.

Jim

[Blimp Edwards]

I thought the 1911 was replaced by the 1911A1 in 1924, well before WWII?

Thanks for the info, crockett007. I'm really just looking for a good working pistol that has at least a slide and frame that were originally from a WWI era 1911 (pre A1).

I restore cars for a living so I'm used to the idea of things being refinished and having new/replaced parts. Plus, I don't have thousands to spend, so I just want the best bang for my buck. I'm not interested in how much it may be worth one day or how collectible it is. A gun that started life as a WWI 1911 is pretty collectible in my book, even if it's not worth much in the real world!

Dan

[Archie]

The 1911A1 DID replace the 1911 as the 'standard gun'. But the government didn't just throw away all the older guns. As time went on, many were 'rebuilt' with 1911A1 parts, like the newer sights (slightly bigger and the rear notch square) and the shorter trigger and so on. But the frames were not (to my knowledge) milled out for the trigger access.

Some weren't fiddled with hardly at all.

Many were surplused out and sold on the civilian market, back when the government tried to save tax money instead of waste it willy-nilly. (Of course, that hacked off Colt, who didn't get to sell as many new commercial made pistols - but somebody is always crying about something.)

I have one such. It is a 1911 frame and slide, with Remington - UMC markings; but it has been remade into a hardball target gun. It still has the wide beavertail hammer and long trigger. I removed the adjustable sights and put fixed sights back on it - they are however a bit wider and just a bit higher than the originals. It shoots very well and will shoot hardball, wadcutters and Federal Hydra-Shok very well.

I've had it for years and the price would be meaningless.

I have a second 1911 I recently purchased for about $1000. The serial number runs in the 50,000 range; but it appears to have been arsenal refinished; it is the gray color of parkerizing rather than the commercial blue of the early pistols. Also, the rear sight has been replaced, but the front seems to be the original thin version. The original grips were gone and replaced with the brown plastic GI grips of the 1911A1. I found some replica diamond grips and put them on for old time's sake. It still has the original style hammer and short tang grip safety. It has been carried and used. The edges and high spots are worn from being holstered and carried. This picture is the second pistol, still with the plastic grips. (By the way, the plastic grips work well, even if not 'cool'.)

It shoots well and I'm proud to have and carry it.

[Blimp Edwards]

The line "some serving into WWII before the A1's were issued" seems to suggest that the A1 wasn't issued at all until sometime during WWII is all.

A local gun store is selling what seems to clearly be a WWI era 1911 that was overhauled, likely during WWII, but judging from the description I'm not sure if they know it. I'm tempted to go take a look, though it's a little out of my price range.

http://millerrodandgun.com/Colt1911R...-45_132455.htm

Dan