Ammo or Firearm? - The Firearms Forum

Crawdaddy · 11-25-2012, 09:37 AM

I bought my 10 year old son a Ruger American in .243 back in September. Between the 2 of us, we've put around 50 reloads through the gun without any issues.
I took the boys hunting yesterday evening & he got a shot on a big doe, but when he squeezed the trigger, all he got was a click. Of course being a reloader, you can imagine the things that went through my mind, #1, not letting him open the bolt for several minutes & keeping the rifle pointed in a safe direction.
I inspected the round in the blind & found a very light firing pin impression on the primer, which leads me to believe something went wrong with the rifle. I've noticed a couple times that the bolt will partially open fairly easily & I've had to stop him a couple times to make sure the action was completely closed.
The good news is a 5 point stepped out about 30 minutes later & he hammered him, nice double lung. It's his 1st buck, so he went from lowest of lows to highest of highs in a span of 30 minutes.
Anyway, I'm attaching a pic of the 2 rounds in question, you can tell an obvious difference in the firing pin impressions. I guess I'd just like to know your opinions on this & specifically could the bolt being partially open have caused the problem?
Thanks for any help & info you can give.

aa1911 · 11-25-2012, 09:42 AM

hmmm... light strike. Sometimes due to fouling but certainly possible there's mechanical issue. This is the first dud, or have there been others? Not the primer from looking at your pics.

Nice deer! and show more of your Toyota next time...

76Highboy · 11-25-2012, 09:46 AM

In knowing that both primers are the same. one would be lead to think that it is the bolt/firing pin. Even with only 50 rounds fired through the rifle, I would not think that the firing pin is dirty enough to be fouled in anyway. However, did you give the bolt a good cleaning after getting to rifle home.

I would inspect the bolt a little closer. If you can't find anything I would take it to a gunsmith for a second opinion. If your son is shooting it you want to know that it is good working order.

Congrats on his first "Big take."

Crawdaddy · 11-25-2012, 09:49 AM

Will do on the Tundra & thanks for the reply. Yes, this is the first misfire from a brand new rifle, like I said, about 50 rounds or so through it. I don't visually see any fouling & everything was cleaned & oiled last Friday before opening day & he put a 3 shot group on paper that evening when he got home from school, something I always do before a hunt; clean shoot, hunt.

Crawdaddy · 11-25-2012, 09:53 AM

Absolutely Highboy, Ive had my heart sink in the deer woods before, as most of us have, but that was terrible. You don't know the relief I felt when he folded that buck up like a lawn chair!.........Pheeeeww! I'll go through the bolt this afternoon with a fine tooth comb.

cycloneman · 11-25-2012, 09:53 AM

I cant tell from that. I suspect your problem is on the other end of the case. DId you Full length size the cases? DId you trim the cases? DId you do exactly what the instructions say when you installed your dies? If you ran your dies in from the last time you had them installed without going thru the procedure you may not be just right on your setting and you may not be ending up with the case being sized just right. Your shoulder may be bumped back and not letting the case fit into the chamber just right. A headspace case gage is a real cool thing to have. Look into the wilson gages. I have heard bad things about the cheaper lyman.

NO i dont think its the gun.

76Highboy · 11-25-2012, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawdaddy

Will do on the Tundra & thanks for the reply. Yes, this is the first misfire from a brand new rifle, like I said, about 50 rounds or so through it. I don't visually see any fouling & everything was cleaned & oiled last Friday before opening day & he put a 3 shot group on paper that evening when he got home from school, something I always do before a hunt; clean shoot, hunt.

Just curious. How much oil did you put on the firing pin. Too much can cause the problem you experienced.

cycloneman · 11-25-2012, 09:57 AM

[QUOTE=Crawdaddy;1029274] I've noticed a couple times that the bolt will partially open fairly easily & I've had to stop him a couple times to make sure the action was completely closed.
QUOTE]

That statement right there tells me your cases are not in specification.

Crawdaddy · 11-25-2012, 10:02 AM

Just a drop highboy, same as hundreds of times before, then blow it out with 30 psi compressed air.
Cyclone, Yes I trim all cases on every hunting round I build. This is the 3rd .243 in my household I load for & I load .243 for 2 other rifles as well. Trust me when I say I'm very particular with my hunting rounds since a bad factory load costing me the biggest buck of my life is what started me reloading in the 1st place. I've been loading for 3 years now & have probably made up 2000 .243 without any issues. I'll double check case dimensions, but it was made in the same batch as four others that have performed without issue.

Crawdaddy · 11-25-2012, 10:03 AM

[QUOTE=cycloneman;1029289]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawdaddy

I've noticed a couple times that the bolt will partially open fairly easily & I've had to stop him a couple times to make sure the action was completely closed.
QUOTE]

That statement right there tells me your cases are not in specification.

The same cases are used in 3 other rifles & the bolt has never come open once. I size & clean 100 at a time for the four rifles I use the nickle cases in. You think there could be that much difference in headspace?

Alpo · 11-25-2012, 10:11 AM

My first guess, with a problem like that, is that the primer was not seated all the way. When you fired, the firing pin blow finished seating the primer. That absorbed much of the force, and all you get is a little dent on the primer. If you hit that one again, since the primer is now fully seated, it will go bang (if that was the problem).

Bolt being partially open cause it? I don't think so. Unless a gun is defective, if the bolt is partially open, it won't fire. Trigger don't pull, firing pin don't move.

Crawdaddy · 11-25-2012, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alpo

My first guess, with a problem like that, is that the primer was not seated all the way. When you fired, the firing pin blow finished seating the primer. That absorbed much of the force, and all you get is a little dent on the primer. If you hit that one again, since the primer is now fully seated, it will go bang (if that was the problem).

Bolt being partially open cause it? I don't think so. Unless a gun is defective, if the bolt is partially open, it won't fire. Trigger don't pull, firing pin don't move.

You got me thinkin Alpo, I left the bolt halfway open & squeezed the trigger. It sets off & the bolt falls down into the closed position, did it a couple times. Can we post videos?

woolleyworm · 11-25-2012, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawdaddy

You got me thinkin Alpo, I left the bolt halfway open & squeezed the trigger. It sets off & the bolt falls down into the closed position, did it a couple times. Can we post videos?

Yes, you can post video links. I would contact Ruger tomorrow morning and get them in the loop.

aa1911 · 11-25-2012, 11:13 AM

what Alpo said also. Sounds crazy but the primer might not have been seated all the way, either not enough oomph and/or dirt in the primer pocket. Use a PP scraper/cleaner to help seat them.

While I doubt it's headspace, it certainly is a possibility.

Crawdaddy · 11-25-2012, 11:21 AM

OK guys, I'd like to link this video. It's in mp4 format, is there an easy way to convert it to an uploadable format?

Crawdaddy · 11-25-2012, 11:24 AM

It's always possible I overlooked something with the primer seating, but I seriously doubt it. It would probably make most of you crazy to watch me & my OCD reloading, lol. I can guarantee it wasnt dirty & I always run the head of the primed brass on a flat surface to ensure its not above the case head.

Crawdaddy · 11-25-2012, 11:41 AM

OK, I just did a test & videod it. I primed an empty case & put it in the chamber & left the bolt partially open, squeezed the trigger & it did exactly as I described before, the bolt fell & it sounds like the firing pin is actuating. Pulled the empty & it had almost no firing pin indention. Put the empty back in, closed the bolt, squeezed the trigger & bam.

accident · 11-25-2012, 01:10 PM

Is that primer ballooned on the fired case on the right? IMHO a case gauge for .243 would be a good idea, it could help show if your sizing die is set correctly. Just a thought.

Appliancedude · 11-25-2012, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawdaddy

OK, I just did a test & videod it. I primed an empty case & put it in the chamber & left the bolt partially open, squeezed the trigger & it did exactly as I described before, the bolt fell & it sounds like the firing pin is actuating. Pulled the empty & it had almost no firing pin indention. Put the empty back in, closed the bolt, squeezed the trigger & bam.

Take it to a gunsmith. Have them take a quick look at it. That doesn't sound right. trigger should not be able to be pulled until the bolt is fully engaged. Or contact the manufacturer. I think its the gun, from what I'm reading

JLA · 11-25-2012, 03:48 PM

My moneys on high primer too. It doent take but a few thousandths to get the apperance fo a light strike when actually whats happening is the firing pin strike is finishing seating the primer and barely denting it in the process.

cycloneman · 11-25-2012, 04:19 PM

OK

Process of elemination.

1. take a good look at the primer. What do you think? Too high? That is easy to tell.

cycloneman · 11-25-2012, 04:25 PM

Well i went back and read everything again and again.

If your setting your dies right then it has to be the gun.

I agree the bolt should be completly closed for the gun to fire.

howlnmad · 11-26-2012, 11:40 AM

I'm going with primer seating issue too. Why not load the light strike round back in the chamber and touch off the trigger? I bet it'll go boom this time.

al45lc · 11-26-2012, 02:12 PM

The answer to your question is YES, if the bolt is partially open it can effect the primer strike.
Testing the gun is simple, resize and prime some cases (NOT LOADED) and test the bolt and firing system by closing and firing,(in a safe manner) then closing and pulling the bolt partially up and trying to fire.
I've seen this before on bolt rifles, usually older, but one new Rem 700 one time.

gdmoody · 11-26-2012, 09:56 PM

I just ordered a Ruger American in .308, should pick it up tomorrow. Now I am curious whether or not I am going to have bolt issues with it.

11-25-2012, 09:42 AM	#2
aa1911 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 3,113	Re: Ammo or Firearm? hmmm... light strike. Sometimes due to fouling but certainly possible there's mechanical issue. This is the first dud, or have there been others? Not the primer from looking at your pics. Nice deer! and show more of your Toyota next time... __________________ "Loud noises don't end gunfights.... well placed shots do."

11-25-2012, 09:46 AM	#3
76Highboy Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Meridian, Idaho Contributor Posts: 6,949	Re: Ammo or Firearm? In knowing that both primers are the same. one would be lead to think that it is the bolt/firing pin. Even with only 50 rounds fired through the rifle, I would not think that the firing pin is dirty enough to be fouled in anyway. However, did you give the bolt a good cleaning after getting to rifle home. I would inspect the bolt a little closer. If you can't find anything I would take it to a gunsmith for a second opinion. If your son is shooting it you want to know that it is good working order. Congrats on his first "Big take."

11-25-2012, 09:49 AM	#4
Crawdaddy V.I.P. Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Virginia Posts: 174	Re: Ammo or Firearm? Will do on the Tundra & thanks for the reply. Yes, this is the first misfire from a brand new rifle, like I said, about 50 rounds or so through it. I don't visually see any fouling & everything was cleaned & oiled last Friday before opening day & he put a 3 shot group on paper that evening when he got home from school, something I always do before a hunt; clean shoot, hunt. __________________ Charity should be a personal choice, not a government mandate - crawdaddy

11-25-2012, 09:53 AM	#5
Crawdaddy V.I.P. Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Virginia Posts: 174	Re: Ammo or Firearm? Absolutely Highboy, Ive had my heart sink in the deer woods before, as most of us have, but that was terrible. You don't know the relief I felt when he folded that buck up like a lawn chair!.........Pheeeeww! I'll go through the bolt this afternoon with a fine tooth comb. __________________ Charity should be a personal choice, not a government mandate - crawdaddy

11-25-2012, 09:53 AM	#6
cycloneman Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Louisiana Posts: 7,401	Re: Ammo or Firearm? I cant tell from that. I suspect your problem is on the other end of the case. DId you Full length size the cases? DId you trim the cases? DId you do exactly what the instructions say when you installed your dies? If you ran your dies in from the last time you had them installed without going thru the procedure you may not be just right on your setting and you may not be ending up with the case being sized just right. Your shoulder may be bumped back and not letting the case fit into the chamber just right. A headspace case gage is a real cool thing to have. Look into the wilson gages. I have heard bad things about the cheaper lyman. NO i dont think its the gun. __________________ Who are you going to serve today?

11-25-2012, 09:37 AM	#1
Crawdaddy V.I.P. Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Virginia Posts: 174	Ammo or Firearm? I bought my 10 year old son a Ruger American in .243 back in September. Between the 2 of us, we've put around 50 reloads through the gun without any issues. I took the boys hunting yesterday evening & he got a shot on a big doe, but when he squeezed the trigger, all he got was a click. Of course being a reloader, you can imagine the things that went through my mind, #1, not letting him open the bolt for several minutes & keeping the rifle pointed in a safe direction. I inspected the round in the blind & found a very light firing pin impression on the primer, which leads me to believe something went wrong with the rifle. I've noticed a couple times that the bolt will partially open fairly easily & I've had to stop him a couple times to make sure the action was completely closed. The good news is a 5 point stepped out about 30 minutes later & he hammered him, nice double lung. It's his 1st buck, so he went from lowest of lows to highest of highs in a span of 30 minutes. Anyway, I'm attaching a pic of the 2 rounds in question, you can tell an obvious difference in the firing pin impressions. I guess I'd just like to know your opinions on this & specifically could the bolt being partially open have caused the problem? Thanks for any help & info you can give. Attached Images __________________ Charity should be a personal choice, not a government mandate - crawdaddy -->

11-25-2012, 09:57 AM	#8
cycloneman Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Louisiana Posts: 7,401	Re: Ammo or Firearm? [QUOTE=Crawdaddy;1029274] I've noticed a couple times that the bolt will partially open fairly easily & I've had to stop him a couple times to make sure the action was completely closed. QUOTE] That statement right there tells me your cases are not in specification. __________________ Who are you going to serve today?

11-25-2012, 10:02 AM	#9
Crawdaddy V.I.P. Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Virginia Posts: 174	Re: Ammo or Firearm? Just a drop highboy, same as hundreds of times before, then blow it out with 30 psi compressed air. Cyclone, Yes I trim all cases on every hunting round I build. This is the 3rd .243 in my household I load for & I load .243 for 2 other rifles as well. Trust me when I say I'm very particular with my hunting rounds since a bad factory load costing me the biggest buck of my life is what started me reloading in the 1st place. I've been loading for 3 years now & have probably made up 2000 .243 without any issues. I'll double check case dimensions, but it was made in the same batch as four others that have performed without issue. __________________ Charity should be a personal choice, not a government mandate - crawdaddy

11-25-2012, 10:11 AM	#11
Alpo Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: NW Florida Posts: 8,652	Re: Ammo or Firearm? My first guess, with a problem like that, is that the primer was not seated all the way. When you fired, the firing pin blow finished seating the primer. That absorbed much of the force, and all you get is a little dent on the primer. If you hit that one again, since the primer is now fully seated, it will go bang (if that was the problem). Bolt being partially open cause it? I don't think so. Unless a gun is defective, if the bolt is partially open, it won't fire. Trigger don't pull, firing pin don't move. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with catsup - George of Lod, Year of Our Lord 297 I always take precautions. Beware the Evil Bullet Fairies.

11-25-2012, 11:13 AM	#14
aa1911 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 3,113	Re: Ammo or Firearm? what Alpo said also. Sounds crazy but the primer might not have been seated all the way, either not enough oomph and/or dirt in the primer pocket. Use a PP scraper/cleaner to help seat them. While I doubt it's headspace, it certainly is a possibility. __________________ "Loud noises don't end gunfights.... well placed shots do."

11-25-2012, 11:21 AM	#15
Crawdaddy V.I.P. Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Virginia Posts: 174	Re: Ammo or Firearm? OK guys, I'd like to link this video. It's in mp4 format, is there an easy way to convert it to an uploadable format? __________________ Charity should be a personal choice, not a government mandate - crawdaddy

11-25-2012, 11:24 AM	#16
Crawdaddy V.I.P. Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Virginia Posts: 174	Re: Ammo or Firearm? It's always possible I overlooked something with the primer seating, but I seriously doubt it. It would probably make most of you crazy to watch me & my OCD reloading, lol. I can guarantee it wasnt dirty & I always run the head of the primed brass on a flat surface to ensure its not above the case head. __________________ Charity should be a personal choice, not a government mandate - crawdaddy

11-25-2012, 11:41 AM	#17
Crawdaddy V.I.P. Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Virginia Posts: 174	Re: Ammo or Firearm? OK, I just did a test & videod it. I primed an empty case & put it in the chamber & left the bolt partially open, squeezed the trigger & it did exactly as I described before, the bolt fell & it sounds like the firing pin is actuating. Pulled the empty & it had almost no firing pin indention. Put the empty back in, closed the bolt, squeezed the trigger & bam. __________________ Charity should be a personal choice, not a government mandate - crawdaddy

11-25-2012, 01:10 PM	#18
accident V.I.P. Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: middle GA Posts: 364	Re: Ammo or Firearm? Is that primer ballooned on the fired case on the right? IMHO a case gauge for .243 would be a good idea, it could help show if your sizing die is set correctly. Just a thought. __________________ "The strongest reason for the people to retain the Right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in Government." Thomas Jefferson

11-25-2012, 03:48 PM	#20
JLA TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Heart Of Texas Contributor Posts: 17,308	Re: Ammo or Firearm? My moneys on high primer too. It doent take but a few thousandths to get the apperance fo a light strike when actually whats happening is the firing pin strike is finishing seating the primer and barely denting it in the process. __________________ It takes 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, and 3 for proper trigger squeeze. The latest caliber or gear is no substitute for experience and skill. Rifles and cartridges don't make hits -- shooters do. Fact of life: After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF!

11-25-2012, 04:19 PM	#21
cycloneman Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Louisiana Posts: 7,401	Re: Ammo or Firearm? OK Process of elemination. 1. take a good look at the primer. What do you think? Too high? That is easy to tell. __________________ Who are you going to serve today?

11-25-2012, 04:25 PM	#22
cycloneman Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Louisiana Posts: 7,401	Re: Ammo or Firearm? Well i went back and read everything again and again. If your setting your dies right then it has to be the gun. I agree the bolt should be completly closed for the gun to fire. __________________ Who are you going to serve today?

11-26-2012, 11:40 AM	#23
howlnmad Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Harriman, Tn Contributor Posts: 2,566	Re: Ammo or Firearm? I'm going with primer seating issue too. Why not load the light strike round back in the chamber and touch off the trigger? I bet it'll go boom this time. __________________

11-26-2012, 02:12 PM	#24
al45lc Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: colorful colorado Posts: 1,016	Re: Ammo or Firearm? The answer to your question is YES, if the bolt is partially open it can effect the primer strike. Testing the gun is simple, resize and prime some cases (NOT LOADED) and test the bolt and firing system by closing and firing,(in a safe manner) then closing and pulling the bolt partially up and trying to fire. I've seen this before on bolt rifles, usually older, but one new Rem 700 one time. __________________ You are what you do, when it counts.

11-26-2012, 09:56 PM	#25
gdmoody Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Northeast Georgia Contributor Posts: 6,313	Re: Ammo or Firearm? I just ordered a Ruger American in .308, should pick it up tomorrow. Now I am curious whether or not I am going to have bolt issues with it. __________________ NRA Endowment Member GeorgiaCarry.Org Member Retired US Army Postal Worker Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take an ass whoopin'.....author unknown (but obviously brilliant)