Burgess rifle, anyone seen one? - The Firearms Forum

Shrapnel · 07-26-2010, 09:26 PM

I just received my Burgess rifle with 2 barrels in 44-40. I had never seen or heard of such a gun until I found it on an internet auction. It is a 2 barreld set in very good condition, and I would like to know more about these rare guns. It does function as it should, has a bright bore and shoots quite well. Anybody have any information????

grampawmike · 07-30-2010, 09:31 AM

Well, the calendar says I'm about to hit 70 yrs of age and I've never seen such a neat piece of machinery in my life. I LIKE IT!!!!

muddober · 07-30-2010, 08:09 PM

I have never seen one, it is very cool and thanks for sharing.

Ron

Contenderizer · 07-31-2010, 03:16 PM

Andrew Burgess was one of the most prolific gun designers of the 1800's. The Burgess Gun Co., formed 1892 in Buffalo, NY, manufactured slide action shotguns and rifles which were operated by their pistol grip, as you show in your last photo.

Another interesting piece he made was a folding shotgun (hinged) so that the barrel would fold against the buttstock. Burgess sold his company to Winchester in 1899. Other gun makers manufactured some of his designs under license, including Whitney Arms, who manufactured a lever action rifle, and Colt, who also manufactured a lever action rifle (1883-1885) in an attempt to compete with Winchester.

Your gun, with two interchangeable barrels, is a dandy and probably rather rare. You didn't say what you paid for it, but I'm guessing its worth $4-5 grand, perhaps more. Which auction site had this fine piece listed?

Jim K · 07-31-2010, 07:23 PM

I have seen one shotgun, but have never seen a rifle. Thanks for sharing the knowledge and the pictures.

Jim

Shrapnel · 07-31-2010, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Contenderizer

Andrew Burgess was one of the most prolific gun designers of the 1800's. The Burgess Gun Co., formed 1892 in Buffalo, NY, manufactured slide action shotguns and rifles which were operated by their pistol grip, as you show in your last photo.

Another interesting piece he made was a folding shotgun (hinged) so that the barrel would fold against the buttstock. Burgess sold his company to Winchester in 1899. Other gun makers manufactured some of his designs under license, including Whitney Arms, who manufactured a lever action rifle, and Colt, who also manufactured a lever action rifle (1883-1885) in an attempt to compete with Winchester.

Your gun, with two interchangeable barrels, is a dandy and probably rather rare. You didn't say what you paid for it, but I'm guessing its worth $4-5 grand, perhaps more. Which auction site had this fine piece listed?

I got it from Greg Martin Auctions and it was way beyond $5,000.00.

It does shoot well, had it out today shooting gophers...nothing but head shots...

Contenderizer · 08-01-2010, 12:59 PM

Shrapnel,

While Burgess rifles with a single barrel are the standard fare (still scarce, however), yours is such a rare and unusual piece that value is impossible to determine until the hammer drops. What ever the cost, you seem happy with the purchase and that's the true measure of value. You really got my juices flowing when you made your post. Good luck with it.

Jim K · 08-01-2010, 02:58 PM

I just love those casual statements like "I was out shooting gophers with my Burgess rifle...." Wow!

Sort of like, "I had my original Paterson at the range the other day...."

Jim

Big Shrek · 08-04-2010, 09:29 PM

^^^

"If you know of a man who only has one rifle, he's probably pretty good with it..."

Shrapnel · 10-20-2010, 11:25 PM

As I researched the Burgess rifle I was able to come up with a Burgess shotgun, made the same way as the rifle. It is still able to take grouse. This has a Damascus barrel with a solid rib, a rare feature on a scarce gun...What is next?

Contenderizer · 10-23-2010, 04:40 PM

What's next? With you who knows. All I know for sure is that you are killing me with these great finds! Keep up the great work.

Assume its 12 Ga. Are you reloading shells for use with the Damascus barrel?

PS - If you don't have any kids, let me know so I can send you my name and address to be included in your Last Will and Testament.

armedandsafe · 10-24-2010, 02:51 PM

Shrapnel, you owe me a new keyboard. The drool shorted out mine.

Pops

Shrapnel · 10-24-2010, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Contenderizer

What's next? With you who knows. All I know for sure is that you are killing me with these great finds! Keep up the great work.

Assume its 12 Ga. Are you reloading shells for use with the Damascus barrel?

PS - If you don't have any kids, let me know so I can send you my name and address to be included in your Last Will and Testament.

I am actually using smokeless 2 5/8 inch subsonic loads. There is hardly any recoil, works nicely.

opoefc · 12-08-2010, 12:23 AM

Some years ago, Elmer Burgess, grandson of Andrew Burgess the Inventor, used to put on shooting exhibitions at So. Calif. gun clubs with various Byurgess firearms. A search of gun magazines of the 50s & 60s will come up with articles on Elmer and his firearms. A good friend of mine, the late Alan Comstock was married to a Burgess descendant, and collected Burgess firearms. He had a large collection of various rifles & shotguns and we often shot them. It takes a few minutes to get used to the odd method of firing these, with the backwards sliding trigger guard action, if you are used to the more common slide action pump shotguns like Winchesters & Remingtons, but once you have tried it , it becomes second nature. Andrew Burgess was a facinating inventor and individual. Many of the Civil war photographs attributed to Brady were actually taken by Burgess. Ed.

BullShoot · 12-09-2010, 11:45 PM

If anyone is interested.... there is a Burgess coming up for auction a week from Saturday.

Check out Morphy Auction, Dec. 18th, lot 212

Burgess Gun Company Slide Action Shotgun.**
Description Serial # 2942. Cal/GA: 12 gage. Manufacture date: Circa 1892 to 1899. Barrel length: 28 inches. Chamber length: 2 - 1/2 inches. Choke dimension: F. Damascus barrel and receiver turning nice brown patina. Unique slide action works smoothly. Finely checkered wood shows nice grain. Originality: 100%.
Condition (Good).
Estimate: 1,000.00 - 2,000.00

Cheers from BullShoot

zita andre · 05-30-2011, 07:22 PM

We have a burgess that is a combination 12 guage and a .25 caliber rifle. There is a lever that switches from the shotgun to the rifle. Can not find any info on the gun.

Dead Eye · 06-30-2011, 05:56 PM

You described yours as being in very good condition. On today's market the estimated value for one in excellent condition is about $3,000-3,500. I think you said you paid in excess of $5,000. Ouch! This is a very scarce model and perhaps someday it will be worth what you paid. I am a gunsmith, collector, dealer and competition shooter. I've seen several of these over the years; they are fine quality specimens and a number of American manufacturers based the design of their arms on Burgess' patents.
Just a friendly word of caution- Ask questions first or do some research prior to bidding on a weapon or making a purchase otherwise you can pay too much.

deadin · 06-30-2011, 06:37 PM

There's the old saying about collectible guns..."You can never pay too much, but you can sure pay too soon."

whirley · 07-02-2011, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadin

There's the old saying about collectible guns..."You can never pay too much, but you can sure pay too soon."

You have a very unique and interesting gun, actually two guns. I'm sure you enjoy using it.

At any auction, there are two people that believe the item is worth the price. The losing bidder just couldn't raise the bid for some reason. If I want it and think it's worth it, and have the money, I buy it!

NZEF1945 · 07-09-2011, 03:45 AM

Great stuff and I love it - alongside John Browning I reckon that Burgess is the greatest American firearms inventor of all times and the reason I say this is for two reasons - the number of firearm patents he held PLUS the uniqeness of some of his designs - they were HIS designs and not based on the designs of earlier firearms. I own and shoot both a Whitney Kennedy rifle which is a Burgess design and a Burgess 12g Shotgun the same as shown above but without the rib along the barrel.
It is also interesting to note that Burgess patent designs are stuill in use today and in the Marlin Model 39A and 39M rifles you will find Burgess designs.
The Colt Burgess, Whitney Kennedy and other rifles made licence and designed by Burgess were far, far superior to the Winchester 1873 to which they were contemporary.

sliclee · 08-28-2011, 06:26 PM

I have seen and used, fired, many Burgess rifles, all in 44/40.
Every single one of them was a lever action rifle.
What you have is a shotgun.
Uberti,just last year has made a replica of the Burgess, go to their web site.
WOW, your gun is RARE.
Colt manufactured this rifle in 1883 and when Winchester saw it they almost had a fit. They made a deal, Colt would stick to pistols, Winchester was about to produce one so They made the deal.
In 1887, Im not sure about the date was when Colt came out with the Lightining rifle.

Shrapnel · 09-09-2011, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sliclee

I have seen and used, fired, many Burgess rifles, all in 44/40.
Every single one of them was a lever action rifle.
What you have is a shotgun.
Uberti,just last year has made a replica of the Burgess, go to their web site.
WOW, your gun is RARE.
Colt manufactured this rifle in 1883 and when Winchester saw it they almost had a fit. They made a deal, Colt would stick to pistols, Winchester was about to produce one so They made the deal.
In 1887, Im not sure about the date was when Colt came out with the Lightining rifle.

I have the Burgess wrist/slide action. You are speaking of the Colt-Burgess, which was a lever action gun. Colt came out with the Lightning in 1884, I have 2 of the first models in 38-40 and 44-40, as well as a Colt 1878 engraved 12 gauge...

Whitney Kennedy was mentioned in an earlier post, I picked up one of those in high condition. It is the early "S" lever in 44-40. Burgess was also instrumental in the development of this gun...

rjwnz · 11-21-2011, 12:50 AM

Wow, is all I can say, and that a quality firearm always seems to just look 'right' somehow, like a fine fighter plane does, thanks for posting, rjwnz

woolleyworm · 11-21-2011, 01:15 AM

Great post, how'd I miss this one earlier??? All I can say is WOW ! Beautiful rifles Shrapnel !

Shrapnel · 11-21-2011, 10:41 PM

I just picked up another Whitney Kennedy 44-40 in a rare Saddle Ring Carbine. It is in better shape than the rifle. I haven't had the opportunity to shoot it yet, but I will soon. It looks like this...

07-26-2010, 09:26 PM	#1
Shrapnel Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 8	Burgess rifle, anyone seen one? I just received my Burgess rifle with 2 barrels in 44-40. I had never seen or heard of such a gun until I found it on an internet auction. It is a 2 barreld set in very good condition, and I would like to know more about these rare guns. It does function as it should, has a bright bore and shoots quite well. Anybody have any information???? -->

07-30-2010, 09:31 AM	#2
grampawmike V.I.P. Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mojave Desert, CA Posts: 194	Re: Burgess rifle, anyone seen one? Well, the calendar says I'm about to hit 70 yrs of age and I've never seen such a neat piece of machinery in my life. I LIKE IT!!!!

07-30-2010, 08:09 PM	#3
muddober Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 1,436	Re: Burgess rifle, anyone seen one? I have never seen one, it is very cool and thanks for sharing. Ron

07-31-2010, 03:16 PM	#4
Contenderizer Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: North-Central Florida, USA Posts: 603	Re: Burgess rifle, anyone seen one? Andrew Burgess was one of the most prolific gun designers of the 1800's. The Burgess Gun Co., formed 1892 in Buffalo, NY, manufactured slide action shotguns and rifles which were operated by their pistol grip, as you show in your last photo. Another interesting piece he made was a folding shotgun (hinged) so that the barrel would fold against the buttstock. Burgess sold his company to Winchester in 1899. Other gun makers manufactured some of his designs under license, including Whitney Arms, who manufactured a lever action rifle, and Colt, who also manufactured a lever action rifle (1883-1885) in an attempt to compete with Winchester. Your gun, with two interchangeable barrels, is a dandy and probably rather rare. You didn't say what you paid for it, but I'm guessing its worth $4-5 grand, perhaps more. Which auction site had this fine piece listed? __________________ NOTE: The information herein is provided free of charge. In some instances, you may actually be getting your money's worth. Author of: The History and Guns of Simson & Co., Suhl www.cornellpubs.com Last edited by Contenderizer; 07-31-2010 at 03:34 PM..

07-31-2010, 07:23 PM	#5
Jim K Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 6,408	Re: Burgess rifle, anyone seen one? I have seen one shotgun, but have never seen a rifle. Thanks for sharing the knowledge and the pictures. Jim

08-01-2010, 12:59 PM	#7
Contenderizer Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: North-Central Florida, USA Posts: 603	Re: Burgess rifle, anyone seen one? Shrapnel, While Burgess rifles with a single barrel are the standard fare (still scarce, however), yours is such a rare and unusual piece that value is impossible to determine until the hammer drops. What ever the cost, you seem happy with the purchase and that's the true measure of value. You really got my juices flowing when you made your post. Good luck with it. __________________ NOTE: The information herein is provided free of charge. In some instances, you may actually be getting your money's worth. Author of: The History and Guns of Simson & Co., Suhl www.cornellpubs.com

08-01-2010, 02:58 PM	#8
Jim K Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 6,408	Re: Burgess rifle, anyone seen one? I just love those casual statements like "I was out shooting gophers with my Burgess rifle...." Wow! Sort of like, "I had my original Paterson at the range the other day...." Jim Last edited by Jim K; 08-01-2010 at 03:02 PM..

08-04-2010, 09:29 PM	#9
Big Shrek Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: NorthWest Florida Posts: 923	Re: Burgess rifle, anyone seen one? ^^^ "If you know of a man who only has one rifle, he's probably pretty good with it..." __________________ Marlin Specialist Calico Specialist A gun should be a tool in the hands of a deadly weapon, not a deadly weapon in the hands of a tool.

10-20-2010, 11:25 PM	#10
Shrapnel Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 8	Re: Burgess rifle, anyone seen one? As I researched the Burgess rifle I was able to come up with a Burgess shotgun, made the same way as the rifle. It is still able to take grouse. This has a Damascus barrel with a solid rib, a rare feature on a scarce gun...What is next?

10-23-2010, 04:40 PM	#11
Contenderizer Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: North-Central Florida, USA Posts: 603	Re: Burgess rifle, anyone seen one? What's next? With you who knows. All I know for sure is that you are killing me with these great finds! Keep up the great work. Assume its 12 Ga. Are you reloading shells for use with the Damascus barrel? PS - If you don't have any kids, let me know so I can send you my name and address to be included in your Last Will and Testament. __________________ NOTE: The information herein is provided free of charge. In some instances, you may actually be getting your money's worth. Author of: The History and Guns of Simson & Co., Suhl www.cornellpubs.com

10-24-2010, 02:51 PM	#12
armedandsafe Former Guest Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Moses Lake, WA Posts: 10,344	Re: Burgess rifle, anyone seen one? Shrapnel, you owe me a new keyboard. The drool shorted out mine. Pops

12-08-2010, 12:23 AM	#14
opoefc Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 2	Re: Burgess rifle, anyone seen one? Some years ago, Elmer Burgess, grandson of Andrew Burgess the Inventor, used to put on shooting exhibitions at So. Calif. gun clubs with various Byurgess firearms. A search of gun magazines of the 50s & 60s will come up with articles on Elmer and his firearms. A good friend of mine, the late Alan Comstock was married to a Burgess descendant, and collected Burgess firearms. He had a large collection of various rifles & shotguns and we often shot them. It takes a few minutes to get used to the odd method of firing these, with the backwards sliding trigger guard action, if you are used to the more common slide action pump shotguns like Winchesters & Remingtons, but once you have tried it , it becomes second nature. Andrew Burgess was a facinating inventor and individual. Many of the Civil war photographs attributed to Brady were actually taken by Burgess. Ed.

12-09-2010, 11:45 PM	#15
BullShoot V.I.P. Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: missouri ozarks Contributor Posts: 446	Re: Burgess rifle, anyone seen one? If anyone is interested.... there is a Burgess coming up for auction a week from Saturday. Check out Morphy Auction, Dec. 18th, lot 212 Burgess Gun Company Slide Action Shotgun.** Description Serial # 2942. Cal/GA: 12 gage. Manufacture date: Circa 1892 to 1899. Barrel length: 28 inches. Chamber length: 2 - 1/2 inches. Choke dimension: F. Damascus barrel and receiver turning nice brown patina. Unique slide action works smoothly. Finely checkered wood shows nice grain. Originality: 100%. Condition (Good). Estimate: 1,000.00 - 2,000.00 Cheers from BullShoot Last edited by BullShoot; 12-09-2010 at 11:50 PM.. Reason: correct the lot number

05-30-2011, 07:22 PM	#16
zita andre Member Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 1	Re: Burgess rifle, anyone seen one? We have a burgess that is a combination 12 guage and a .25 caliber rifle. There is a lever that switches from the shotgun to the rifle. Can not find any info on the gun.

06-30-2011, 05:56 PM	#17
Dead Eye Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Virginia Posts: 3	Re: Burgess rifle, anyone seen one? You described yours as being in very good condition. On today's market the estimated value for one in excellent condition is about $3,000-3,500. I think you said you paid in excess of $5,000. Ouch! This is a very scarce model and perhaps someday it will be worth what you paid. I am a gunsmith, collector, dealer and competition shooter. I've seen several of these over the years; they are fine quality specimens and a number of American manufacturers based the design of their arms on Burgess' patents. Just a friendly word of caution- Ask questions first or do some research prior to bidding on a weapon or making a purchase otherwise you can pay too much.

06-30-2011, 06:37 PM	#18
deadin Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 867	Re: Burgess rifle, anyone seen one? There's the old saying about collectible guns..."You can never pay too much, but you can sure pay too soon."

07-09-2011, 03:45 AM	#20
NZEF1945 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Otago, New Zealand Posts: 6	Re: Burgess rifle, anyone seen one? Great stuff and I love it - alongside John Browning I reckon that Burgess is the greatest American firearms inventor of all times and the reason I say this is for two reasons - the number of firearm patents he held PLUS the uniqeness of some of his designs - they were HIS designs and not based on the designs of earlier firearms. I own and shoot both a Whitney Kennedy rifle which is a Burgess design and a Burgess 12g Shotgun the same as shown above but without the rib along the barrel. It is also interesting to note that Burgess patent designs are stuill in use today and in the Marlin Model 39A and 39M rifles you will find Burgess designs. The Colt Burgess, Whitney Kennedy and other rifles made licence and designed by Burgess were far, far superior to the Winchester 1873 to which they were contemporary.

08-28-2011, 06:26 PM	#21
sliclee V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Miami Beach Florida Posts: 65	Re: Burgess rifle, anyone seen one? I have seen and used, fired, many Burgess rifles, all in 44/40. Every single one of them was a lever action rifle. What you have is a shotgun. Uberti,just last year has made a replica of the Burgess, go to their web site. WOW, your gun is RARE. Colt manufactured this rifle in 1883 and when Winchester saw it they almost had a fit. They made a deal, Colt would stick to pistols, Winchester was about to produce one so They made the deal. In 1887, Im not sure about the date was when Colt came out with the Lightining rifle. __________________ NRA Life SASS Life Gold Coast Gunslingers Okeechobee Marshals trust but verify Last edited by sliclee; 08-28-2011 at 06:40 PM..

11-21-2011, 12:50 AM	#23
rjwnz Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Auckland NZ Posts: 3	Re: Burgess rifle, anyone seen one? Wow, is all I can say, and that a quality firearm always seems to just look 'right' somehow, like a fine fighter plane does, thanks for posting, rjwnz __________________ [/SIGPIC]Owner [url]www.EnfieldResource.com Author 'The 2012 Complete Book on Lee Enfield Accurizing.

11-21-2011, 01:15 AM	#24
woolleyworm TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: SW Fort Worth Contributor Posts: 4,888	Re: Burgess rifle, anyone seen one? Great post, how'd I miss this one earlier??? All I can say is WOW ! Beautiful rifles Shrapnel ! __________________ . What are you gonna do, talk the alien to death? -- (on Sigourney Weaver's worry about Guns in Aliens) "Safety is something that happens between your ears, not something you hold in your hands." "I carry a small gun to compensate for my huge Blue press." .

11-21-2011, 10:41 PM	#25
Shrapnel Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 8	Re: Burgess rifle, anyone seen one? I just picked up another Whitney Kennedy 44-40 in a rare Saddle Ring Carbine. It is in better shape than the rifle. I haven't had the opportunity to shoot it yet, but I will soon. It looks like this...