Hello All - The Firearms Forum

Spec · 05-11-2004, 11:18 PM

Hello All

I'm new to the forum and new to firearms in general. I've always had a deep intrest in them but I was never able to obtain or fire one because I grew up in a house where guns were strictly prohibited. Now that I've left the nest i'm in the market for buying my first rifle. Now to the question. I've visited local gun shops and most of them recommended that I start off with a 22.
On the other hand a friend of mine says that I'll begin to regret my purchase if a go with a 22, He says it's a like shooting firecrackers out of a barrel. I don't want to get a rifle that bruises my shoulder either. I was looking at the Ruger website and I noticed the Mini 14. It really caught my eye, I think it's a beautiful rifle in my humble opinion. It shoots a 223 rem/ 5.56, the same round as the M-16 and armalite family rifles. Again I remind you I've never fired a rifle before, I've had plenty of time to study and learn about firearms but I've never felt the a kick of a rifle butt in my shoulder. My question is, do you think the Ruger Mini-14 is too much gun for a beginner? I'm not a rich guy, so I want to make my first purchase a special one because I know I won't be able to afford another gun for awhile. Thanks in advance for your advice.

mameral · 05-11-2004, 11:26 PM

Welcome Spec. I think that you'll find that there is a lot of knowledgable and friendly people here.

If I might provide some assistance...

Everyone has an opinion on what is the best gun. I would say that maybe you should determine exactly what you want to do with your new rifle. The 22 is cheap to shoot and can be really fun. The 223 uses slightly more expensive shells but can do more. I don't have any personal experience with the Ruger mini14 but love the 10-22. Good luck.

pickenup · 05-11-2004, 11:33 PM

Hi Spec. Welcome to TFF.
A 22 rifle has relatively no kick to it. But it will teach you the fundamentals of shooting, without costing you an arm and/or a leg. (maybe your first born though LOL) You can usually pick up a good used 22 for around $100, give or take.

It kind of depends on what you want to do with your first rifle, as to what to buy. If you are wanting to shoot cloverleafs at 100 yards, the Mini-14 is not going to do it. While being a fun gun to shoot, they are notorious for not being that accurate. The .223 can be shot all day long, without getting a blue shoulder. Even by a beginner.

Let us know a little more about what you want to be able to do with your first rifle.

Spec · 05-11-2004, 11:53 PM

Thanks pickenup and mameral for your replies.

As far as what I want to do with my first rifle? I basically want to go to the range and shoot for hours, shoot bottles, cans, targets and maybe eventually do some small game hunting. I do want a rifle that has some kick to it. I'm looking for something thats reliable, durable and looks cool. I know everyones opinions vary when it comes to the aesthetics of firearms. But I personally like the look of the autoloading rifles. I don't mind lever action either. I just really like the look of the Mini 14. As far as accuracy goes, it doesn't have to be match grade accuracy. I'm just looking to hit targets at 100 yards or so. I also live in California where the gun laws are pretty strict. I'm sure the mini 14 is legal. It comes with a 5 round mag. I kinda have my heart set on the mini 14 for now, I just don't know if i'm jumping ahead of myself.

pickenup · 05-12-2004, 12:43 AM

Sounds like the Mini-14 would suit you just fine. As long as you can get around the accuracy part. The ammo is relatively cheap and plenty of it available. Enjoy.

One suggestion that I might make, is about shooting glass bottles. Either don’t do it, or put a tarp under them so you can clean up the broken glass. None of the ranges that I belong to, allow any glass to be shot. Way too much of a risk of someone getting cut from either leftover or flying glass.

358 winchester · 05-12-2004, 07:39 AM

Good morning Spec and welcome to the forum.
Now for your ?
Shooting at a range
I have been a Range Master for several years on a couple of ranges and if you want to get tossed out of a club fast shoot bottles.
Never shoot any thing that is not biodegradable.
Paper targets, wooden blocks, steel silhouettes, charcoal briquet's just to name a few that are fun. Ask the range officer what is or isn't allowed before you shoot it. Get a copy of the range rules , read them and follow them and other members will be glad to teach you.
Rifle
Only you can make the choice on this but before you make a purchase I would say that you should find a local shooting club go to them ask them to teach you and it is very possible that some members will offer to let you join them for some range time as a guest and shoot some of their rifles before you make a purchase that you aren't happy with when you get to the range with it.
Heck fly over here to Pensacola Fl. and call me when you get to the airport I will take you to our range and let you shoot until your arm drops off. any style any caliber and as many as you want. this is an honest offer!!
Ron

Marlin · 05-12-2004, 07:41 AM

Glad to see you at TFF, Spec.

Your question is like asking which car should I buy. Each has a favorite and no two can readily agree. It depends on what you want and what you want to do. You need to decide that first.

Hope you will stay a while and be a part of the family.

22WRF · 05-12-2004, 07:45 AM

Everyone has at least one .22 most have more. You will never get tired of shooting a good .22.

I always take at least one to the range with me.

Cheap, fun, and you will get the most practice with it (Them)

I could be a bit biased

SouthernMoss · 05-12-2004, 09:07 AM

Welcome to TFF, Spec. What kind of budget are you working with? Is it possible to get the Mini 14 AND a 22?

358 had some very good advice. Go to a range and talk to folks there. Some ranges will rent guns, and you could try out some different ones before you make your final selection.

Welcome to the addiction.

Craig · 05-12-2004, 09:18 AM

Welcome to Tff.
It sounds to me like you already have your mind made up. If that is what you want, get it. The more you enjoy the gun you have, the more you will pratice, the better you will get.
I will have to agree with some of the earlier posts. There is nothing like the fun of shooting a 22. It is a good gun to learn on, and will help you avoid the dreaded "flinch" 22's can be bought in auto-loaded if that is what you like. just my 2 cents worth.

Doug Wilson · 05-12-2004, 07:15 PM

Hi, I'm new here too, but I've been around firearms awhile - pretty close to 50 years.

Whenever I don't have a mini-14, I feel like I'm missing a leg.

I ALWAYS have some. 22s.

If you buy a Ruger, buy it USED, so that you are not contributing to the wealth of the Ruger family. They are not the friends of people who believe in the Second Amendment.

Ruger makes 3 firearms that every shooter oughtta have: the Mini, the 10/22 and the Single Six. The Mark II should also be somewhere on your list.

My advice: you will never regret the purchase of a Mini-14. I wouldn't buy a Mini-30.

You'll always (I hope) be able to pick up .22s, but that might not be true of the Mini - especially in the People's Republic of Kalifornia.

cowdoc · 05-12-2004, 07:29 PM

in my experince the mini 14 is the most inaccurate rifle you can buy but they are fun to shoot ..ps i have a thing for very accurate rifles though

for a few more dollars you can get a ar 15 type rifle and are a lot more accurate but i dont know if you can own one of them out there though.... there sure is nothing wrong with a 22 either. its your money though buy what you like!
doc
ps after a while you will find that you need to own many guns!

oh yea welcome

Mateomasfeo · 05-12-2004, 08:18 PM

Welcome from a new old guy!

Spec · 05-12-2004, 10:15 PM

Thanks all for your advice.

More and more people are starting to tell me about the inaccuracy problem with the mini 14. I read somewhere online some of the test results on a mini 14. 4-5" for ten shot groups using average ammo at 100 yards! The test was done by professionals using a test bench. Thats pretty bad in my humble opinion. The inaccuracy thing is starting to turn me off a bit. I'm still on the fence between the 10/22 and the mini. Hows the accuracy on the 10/22's? Anyone know of any common problems associated with them?

358 winchester · 05-12-2004, 10:29 PM

OUTSTANDING
my 2 cents

TRAP55 · 05-12-2004, 10:38 PM

SPEC, what part of the occupied territory are you in? I"m 20mins. west of SAC. I have 3 10/22's you can try and be my guest at the range. Oh Ya! Welcome!

Spec · 05-12-2004, 10:58 PM

Thanks for the offer Trap.

I'm in San Jose a buddy of mine from San Francisco is going to take me to the range this monday to try his 10/22 I'll let you know how it goes.. i'm sure i'll love it.. I'm just affraid of going gun crazy and blowing all my cash on firearms.

TRAP55 · 05-12-2004, 11:06 PM

Someone in S.F. owns guns????

Well the offer still stands anyhow, and when you get ready to add a shotgun to the collection, you're welcome to try any of mine. 1st box of shells is on me, lunch is on you!

Doug Wilson · 05-12-2004, 11:27 PM

I've had (at least) half-a-dozen Mini-14s, and not one shot that badly. I too have heard rumors about their inaccuracy, but I've probably shot 20 to 30 of them, and not one of them shot over 2" at 100 yards.

My present Mini is used for coyote shooting, and I have taken maybe 50 over 200 yards away. Five were between 250 and 300 yards.

I also have found that semi-auto rifles are a lot more accurate than conventional wisdom says they are. Except, of course for M-16/AR15s and their clones, which usually don't shoot for sour owl sh*t, unless you spend a ton of money on them, or buy a match grade, which will set you back (substantially) over a Grand.

Only fifty years of experience speaking here.

Not trying to irritate the black-mouse-gun advocates, just what I've seen and done.

cowdoc · 05-12-2004, 11:44 PM

really doug, your experince has been quite different than mine i guess. my brother has a mini 14 ranch and lucky to get 4"@100 with it but my bushmaster heavy bbl and not a match one either will shoot just over moa easy even past 300 yds with open sights right out of the box think i give around 750 for it on an auction and the mini has a scope on it

Mateomasfeo · 05-13-2004, 09:10 AM

Get a .22, shoot it awhile, get used to gun safety, etc. THEN get another calibre after that. Most .22's are relatively cheap, and the ammo is quite a bit cheaper than 5.56.

After you shoot the .22 for awhile, you will get the bug and start adding from there.

Just my .02 cents, in the end do what makes you comfortable. A lot of great advise here...

Doug Wilson · 05-13-2004, 11:28 AM

Ya know... the same firearm will shoot differently for different people. Maybe it's just that the Minis seem to fit me so well, and the M-16/AR-15s and their clones just don't. It's puzzling - and believe me, I am NO fan of the Ruger family.

I have a similar experience with Glocks - I just plain don't like the way they shoot (for me) and feel and handle.

Oh, well... Maybe that's why God makes women with different colored hair (and stuff)!!

cowdoc · 05-13-2004, 12:52 PM

quote "Maybe it's just that the Minis seem to fit me so well, and the M-16/AR-15s and their clones just don't. It's puzzling "

sure could be Doug.
i am on the large side long arms and ect. guess tall and lanky kinda describes me
i have nothing to much against the mini i like all rifles

Doug Wilson · 05-13-2004, 01:24 PM

Short, fat, ugly and old is me.

But... I'm brilliant, have a scintillating personality, and am modest to a fault.

And, possibly, the World's greatest lover.

Hallchinalady · 05-13-2004, 01:40 PM

Spec...Is it possible to spend TOO MUCH money on firearms...remember...you may need them for protection at some point in time....best to be prepared!

05-11-2004, 11:18 PM	#1
Spec Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: California Posts: 14	Hello All Hello All I'm new to the forum and new to firearms in general. I've always had a deep intrest in them but I was never able to obtain or fire one because I grew up in a house where guns were strictly prohibited. Now that I've left the nest i'm in the market for buying my first rifle. Now to the question. I've visited local gun shops and most of them recommended that I start off with a 22. On the other hand a friend of mine says that I'll begin to regret my purchase if a go with a 22, He says it's a like shooting firecrackers out of a barrel. I don't want to get a rifle that bruises my shoulder either. I was looking at the Ruger website and I noticed the Mini 14. It really caught my eye, I think it's a beautiful rifle in my humble opinion. It shoots a 223 rem/ 5.56, the same round as the M-16 and armalite family rifles. Again I remind you I've never fired a rifle before, I've had plenty of time to study and learn about firearms but I've never felt the a kick of a rifle butt in my shoulder. My question is, do you think the Ruger Mini-14 is too much gun for a beginner? I'm not a rich guy, so I want to make my first purchase a special one because I know I won't be able to afford another gun for awhile. Thanks in advance for your advice. -->

05-11-2004, 11:33 PM	#3
pickenup Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains Posts: 6,838	Hi Spec. Welcome to TFF. A 22 rifle has relatively no kick to it. But it will teach you the fundamentals of shooting, without costing you an arm and/or a leg. (maybe your first born though LOL) You can usually pick up a good used 22 for around $100, give or take. It kind of depends on what you want to do with your first rifle, as to what to buy. If you are wanting to shoot cloverleafs at 100 yards, the Mini-14 is not going to do it. While being a fun gun to shoot, they are notorious for not being that accurate. The .223 can be shot all day long, without getting a blue shoulder. Even by a beginner. Let us know a little more about what you want to be able to do with your first rifle. __________________ The gene pool needs chlorine

05-12-2004, 12:43 AM	#5
pickenup Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains Posts: 6,838	Sounds like the Mini-14 would suit you just fine. As long as you can get around the accuracy part. The ammo is relatively cheap and plenty of it available. Enjoy. One suggestion that I might make, is about shooting glass bottles. Either don’t do it, or put a tarp under them so you can clean up the broken glass. None of the ranges that I belong to, allow any glass to be shot. Way too much of a risk of someone getting cut from either leftover or flying glass. __________________ The gene pool needs chlorine

05-12-2004, 07:39 AM	#6
358 winchester TFF Admin Staff Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Pensacola Fl. area Posts: 7,335	Good morning Spec and welcome to the forum. Now for your ? Shooting at a range I have been a Range Master for several years on a couple of ranges and if you want to get tossed out of a club fast shoot bottles. Never shoot any thing that is not biodegradable. Paper targets, wooden blocks, steel silhouettes, charcoal briquet's just to name a few that are fun. Ask the range officer what is or isn't allowed before you shoot it. Get a copy of the range rules , read them and follow them and other members will be glad to teach you. Rifle Only you can make the choice on this but before you make a purchase I would say that you should find a local shooting club go to them ask them to teach you and it is very possible that some members will offer to let you join them for some range time as a guest and shoot some of their rifles before you make a purchase that you aren't happy with when you get to the range with it. Heck fly over here to Pensacola Fl. and call me when you get to the airport I will take you to our range and let you shoot until your arm drops off. any style any caliber and as many as you want. this is an honest offer!! Ron __________________ Administrator & Owner RangeDay.com Proud, White, Heterosexual, Gun Owning, Southern American, Christian. Any question about where I stand?

05-12-2004, 07:41 AM	#7
Marlin TFF Admin Staff Chief Counselor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: At SouthernMoss' side forever! Contributor Posts: 13,853	Glad to see you at TFF, Spec. Your question is like asking which car should I buy. Each has a favorite and no two can readily agree. It depends on what you want and what you want to do. You need to decide that first. Hope you will stay a while and be a part of the family. Attached Images __________________ *The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing.* *The only criminal class native to the United States is Congress.*

05-11-2004, 11:26 PM	#2
mameral V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Northern California Posts: 152	Welcome Spec. I think that you'll find that there is a lot of knowledgable and friendly people here. If I might provide some assistance... Everyone has an opinion on what is the best gun. I would say that maybe you should determine exactly what you want to do with your new rifle. The 22 is cheap to shoot and can be really fun. The 223 uses slightly more expensive shells but can do more. I don't have any personal experience with the Ruger mini14 but love the 10-22. Good luck.

05-11-2004, 11:53 PM	#4
Spec Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: California Posts: 14	Thanks pickenup and mameral for your replies. As far as what I want to do with my first rifle? I basically want to go to the range and shoot for hours, shoot bottles, cans, targets and maybe eventually do some small game hunting. I do want a rifle that has some kick to it. I'm looking for something thats reliable, durable and looks cool. I know everyones opinions vary when it comes to the aesthetics of firearms. But I personally like the look of the autoloading rifles. I don't mind lever action either. I just really like the look of the Mini 14. As far as accuracy goes, it doesn't have to be match grade accuracy. I'm just looking to hit targets at 100 yards or so. I also live in California where the gun laws are pretty strict. I'm sure the mini 14 is legal. It comes with a 5 round mag. I kinda have my heart set on the mini 14 for now, I just don't know if i'm jumping ahead of myself.

05-12-2004, 07:45 AM	#8
22WRF Advanced Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Pea Ridge, FL Contributor Posts: 4,254	Everyone has at least one .22 most have more. You will never get tired of shooting a good .22. I always take at least one to the range with me. Cheap, fun, and you will get the most practice with it (Them) I could be a bit biased

05-12-2004, 09:07 AM	#9
SouthernMoss Admin Tech Staff Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: SW MS Contributor Posts: 10,651	Welcome to TFF, Spec. What kind of budget are you working with? Is it possible to get the Mini 14 AND a 22? 358 had some very good advice. Go to a range and talk to folks there. Some ranges will rent guns, and you could try out some different ones before you make your final selection. Welcome to the addiction. __________________ My Second protects your First "I declare to you that woman must not depend upon the protection of man, but must be taught to protect herself, and there I take my stand." - Susan B Anthony

05-12-2004, 09:18 AM	#10
Craig Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Central Pa. Posts: 561	Welcome to Tff. It sounds to me like you already have your mind made up. If that is what you want, get it. The more you enjoy the gun you have, the more you will pratice, the better you will get. I will have to agree with some of the earlier posts. There is nothing like the fun of shooting a 22. It is a good gun to learn on, and will help you avoid the dreaded "flinch" 22's can be bought in auto-loaded if that is what you like. just my 2 cents worth. __________________ If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die, I want to go where they went. -Will Rogers My goal in life is to be as good of a person as my dog already thinks I am. -Unknown

05-12-2004, 07:15 PM	#11
Doug Wilson V.I.P. Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Sheridan, Oregon Posts: 83	Hi, I'm new here too, but I've been around firearms awhile - pretty close to 50 years. Whenever I don't have a mini-14, I feel like I'm missing a leg. I ALWAYS have some. 22s. If you buy a Ruger, buy it USED, so that you are not contributing to the wealth of the Ruger family. They are not the friends of people who believe in the Second Amendment. Ruger makes 3 firearms that every shooter oughtta have: the Mini, the 10/22 and the Single Six. The Mark II should also be somewhere on your list. My advice: you will never regret the purchase of a Mini-14. I wouldn't buy a Mini-30. You'll always (I hope) be able to pick up .22s, but that might not be true of the Mini - especially in the People's Republic of Kalifornia. __________________ God Bless America !!

05-12-2004, 07:29 PM	#12
cowdoc V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 170	in my experince the mini 14 is the most inaccurate rifle you can buy but they are fun to shoot ..ps i have a thing for very accurate rifles though for a few more dollars you can get a ar 15 type rifle and are a lot more accurate but i dont know if you can own one of them out there though.... there sure is nothing wrong with a 22 either. its your money though buy what you like! doc ps after a while you will find that you need to own many guns! oh yea welcome

05-12-2004, 08:18 PM	#13
Mateomasfeo V.I.P. Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 242	Welcome from a new old guy! __________________ Mateomasfeo "I am what I am." - Popeye

05-12-2004, 10:15 PM	#14
Spec Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: California Posts: 14	Thanks all for your advice. More and more people are starting to tell me about the inaccuracy problem with the mini 14. I read somewhere online some of the test results on a mini 14. 4-5" for ten shot groups using average ammo at 100 yards! The test was done by professionals using a test bench. Thats pretty bad in my humble opinion. The inaccuracy thing is starting to turn me off a bit. I'm still on the fence between the 10/22 and the mini. Hows the accuracy on the 10/22's? Anyone know of any common problems associated with them? __________________ Trespassers will be shot. Survivors will be shot again

05-12-2004, 10:29 PM	#15
358 winchester TFF Admin Staff Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Pensacola Fl. area Posts: 7,335	OUTSTANDING my 2 cents __________________ Administrator & Owner RangeDay.com Proud, White, Heterosexual, Gun Owning, Southern American, Christian. Any question about where I stand?

05-12-2004, 10:38 PM	#16
TRAP55 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Occupied Territory Of Kalifornia Posts: 1,834	SPEC, what part of the occupied territory are you in? I"m 20mins. west of SAC. I have 3 10/22's you can try and be my guest at the range. Oh Ya! Welcome! Last edited by TRAP55; 05-12-2004 at 10:40 PM..

05-12-2004, 10:58 PM	#17
Spec Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: California Posts: 14	Thanks for the offer Trap. I'm in San Jose a buddy of mine from San Francisco is going to take me to the range this monday to try his 10/22 I'll let you know how it goes.. i'm sure i'll love it.. I'm just affraid of going gun crazy and blowing all my cash on firearms. __________________ Trespassers will be shot. Survivors will be shot again

05-12-2004, 11:06 PM	#18
TRAP55 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Occupied Territory Of Kalifornia Posts: 1,834	Someone in S.F. owns guns???? Well the offer still stands anyhow, and when you get ready to add a shotgun to the collection, you're welcome to try any of mine. 1st box of shells is on me, lunch is on you!

05-12-2004, 11:27 PM	#19
Doug Wilson V.I.P. Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Sheridan, Oregon Posts: 83	I've had (at least) half-a-dozen Mini-14s, and not one shot that badly. I too have heard rumors about their inaccuracy, but I've probably shot 20 to 30 of them, and not one of them shot over 2" at 100 yards. My present Mini is used for coyote shooting, and I have taken maybe 50 over 200 yards away. Five were between 250 and 300 yards. I also have found that semi-auto rifles are a lot more accurate than conventional wisdom says they are. Except, of course for M-16/AR15s and their clones, which usually don't shoot for sour owl sh*t, unless you spend a ton of money on them, or buy a match grade, which will set you back (substantially) over a Grand. Only fifty years of experience speaking here. Not trying to irritate the black-mouse-gun advocates, just what I've seen and done. __________________ God Bless America !!

05-12-2004, 11:44 PM	#20
cowdoc V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 170	really doug, your experince has been quite different than mine i guess. my brother has a mini 14 ranch and lucky to get 4"@100 with it but my bushmaster heavy bbl and not a match one either will shoot just over moa easy even past 300 yds with open sights right out of the box think i give around 750 for it on an auction and the mini has a scope on it

05-13-2004, 09:10 AM	#21
Mateomasfeo V.I.P. Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 242	Get a .22, shoot it awhile, get used to gun safety, etc. THEN get another calibre after that. Most .22's are relatively cheap, and the ammo is quite a bit cheaper than 5.56. After you shoot the .22 for awhile, you will get the bug and start adding from there. Just my .02 cents, in the end do what makes you comfortable. A lot of great advise here... __________________ Mateomasfeo "I am what I am." - Popeye

05-13-2004, 11:28 AM	#22
Doug Wilson V.I.P. Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Sheridan, Oregon Posts: 83	Ya know... the same firearm will shoot differently for different people. Maybe it's just that the Minis seem to fit me so well, and the M-16/AR-15s and their clones just don't. It's puzzling - and believe me, I am NO fan of the Ruger family. I have a similar experience with Glocks - I just plain don't like the way they shoot (for me) and feel and handle. Oh, well... Maybe that's why God makes women with different colored hair (and stuff)!! __________________ God Bless America !!

05-13-2004, 12:52 PM	#23
cowdoc V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 170	quote "Maybe it's just that the Minis seem to fit me so well, and the M-16/AR-15s and their clones just don't. It's puzzling " sure could be Doug. i am on the large side long arms and ect. guess tall and lanky kinda describes me i have nothing to much against the mini i like all rifles

05-13-2004, 01:24 PM	#24
Doug Wilson V.I.P. Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Sheridan, Oregon Posts: 83	Short, fat, ugly and old is me. But... I'm brilliant, have a scintillating personality, and am modest to a fault. And, possibly, the World's greatest lover. __________________ God Bless America !!

05-13-2004, 01:40 PM	#25
Hallchinalady V.I.P. Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Central Pa. Posts: 383	Spec...Is it possible to spend TOO MUCH money on firearms...remember...you may need them for protection at some point in time....best to be prepared! __________________ I CAN'T ...... is NOT a part of my vocabulary!!!!