Night sites vs. regular sites-question?

[pickenup]

I have night sights as well as regular sites on different handguns, and I have used both when I have shot in matches using a flashlight, and under low light conditions. I have found that where there is “ANY” light, the night sites do not help. They are new sites and VERY bright in total darkness, But they only work well, in the really dark situations, where I am not able to positively “identify” the target.

I know that most people do not get a chance to “practice” using night sites, but of those of you who do. Has anyone found any "real" advantage to having them? Besides just being a “cool” accessory.

The only scenario where I think they would come in handy is, if you were in your house at night, no lights on, and there is a person in your house. For this reason alone I will keep them. But this can go back to “positively” being able to identifying your target. (or not)

[Remington597]

Your thread reinforces the need for thourough practice will all types of firearms, including those without sites and those with high tech tritiums. I enjoy three dot sites as well as two dot sites on my smaller size Kel Tecs as well as shooting with no sites at all.
After many thousands of hours, it becomes natural, even in the dark while seeing a small outline of your target. It must also be stressed that target acquistion and knowing what your shooting at is also critical.
Practicing with different types of firearms is the key.

[offeror]

Actually, you bring up a valid point. The white dots used in good, plain fixed three dot systems are often much more useful in most light conditions than many of the rather skimpy night sights, which may actually appear dimmer and smaller than their plain-painted brothers whether the lights are on or off.

While the Trijicons come closest to being useful (the brightest and longest lasting night sights I've used -- on a Glock), I have found my (new) factory S&W night sights can be more useful for finding the gun in the dark than for aiming at anything. In pitch dark of course, you can eventually line up even the dimmest night sights -- but in pitch dark you may see nothing much beyond them. Even moonlight, as you point out, can reduce the usefulness of most if not all night sights to about zero. I believe night sights are most useful in a narrow range of conditions where you are in darkness but your target is silhouetted, maybe by moonlight or a distant ambient source behind him. If you plan for that, then you won't waste time looking for them when they'll be hard to acquire.

Obviously, I think point shooting, or clicking on a well-focused Xenon flashlight, can be faster and more accurate regardless of the shooter's experience a lot of the time. Once the flashlight comes on, I find my eye and the muzzle aligning to the target without straining, while luminous dots immediately become surprisingly harder to use.

I would simply suggest that people contemplating night sights assure that the sights you buy are large and well painted for daylight use as well. Then if you get some use from the luminosity it will be a nice bonus. Those who get along without night sights on some of their guns know they are not missing much.

[mballai]

I think that night sights are more of a cash cow for the sight manufacturers than a valuable tool for most shooters.

For concealed carry or LE use where the gun is pulled in response to a known perp at reasonably close range, the sights enable a better sight view in the dark. If you carry at night, it's worth having. But so is a Surefire.

For most folks, a light to verify one's target is really the better deal. Easier to change a battery or bulb, than to have the sights redone when they go.

[45Smashemflat]

You mean night sights don't let you see at night?!?!?

But seriously, the post above that referenced "finding the gun" is a great point. I travel a good bit, and placing my handgun on the strange night stand oriented so the sights face the pillow is a good tactical move. I know where to look for that and I usually index it so I can also find the door quickly.

[Shooter45]

Nite sights are a waste of $$ IMHO.

You will be able to see the sights, but not after the first shot.

I prefer a flashlight to nite sights but do I want to give my position away in a gunfight? I think not.

[antediluvianist]

This will not work for everybody, but my solution is to paint fairly large circles - with bright flourescent paint - on the sights. If there is any light at all, I can see them. And you can make them much bigger than those relatively small tritium-vial lights.

If there is no light at all, better use a flashlight and make sure you are not shooting your neighbor or family member .

[Pistolsmith]

Luminous sights can reflect off glasses and give away your position. Lighting up a light attached to your gun or hand held will give away your position.
Throwing a cyalume light tube at the source of danger will illuminate the scene, divert attention from your position and allow you to take control of the scene immediately.
Just my thoughts as a 40+ year LE firearms instructor.

[bambihunter]

I've got them on my defensive weapons (and nothing else). I do not think they hinder me in any way. As to whether they help, that will depend largely on the situation in which they'll be used.
I too use them to orient me towards the grip on the firearm. Also, we don't have an "open house" policy so if someone is in our house it'll be me or my wife or an unwelcome guest who most likely just set off the alarm and will be staring down a pair of 10mm's. Best of luck to 'em (whether we have nite sites or not).

[Pistolsmith]

What good will night sights do in that scenario?
Before you do ANYTHING ELSE, you MUST identify the target. That means to see it and evalauate what you see. Your night sights will not be any help here. You need a light of some kind.
The true value of luminous sights would be to align your pistol(s) in the direction of muzzle flashes. In that case, you would not have to see and evaluate, since hostile intentions are obvious.
My burglar trap has a trip switch with a powerful strobe light at the end of the circuit. Talk about disorienting an intruder! A cyalume stick thrown into a corner does almost as well.
Just a word to the wise.

[bambihunter]

Originally Posted by Pistolsmith

What good will night sights do in that scenario?

Simple, if the alarm goes off I can easily reach across the bed to tell if my wife is in bed beside me. If she is, then ANY person entering our home after hours will be considered hostile. Then, any movement towards our "defensive corner" will be met with resistance.

Our friends and family do NOT have a key, do NOT know our alarm codes, do NOT know the code to open our garage, but they do know how to call us on the phone and say they are right outside or they can ring the door bell.

Of course when we have guests staying over then this scenario doesn't apply. We have no children or anyone who would have a reason to be inside or even keys to our house.

I will say that if we had kids or if we had an "open door" policy like we have had at a couple places in the past it is definately NOT the case here...

This is covered under Oklahoma law (see post and like to OSBI on another post below)

[Pistolsmith]

I hate to be the first to tell you this, but some of the delf defense rumors spread (even by the NRA) could get you put in prison for your efforts and then for the rest of your life you could not own any kind of firearm.
You can NEVER, EVER use deadly force against a property crime. Criminal trespass is often a misdemeanor. Your life must be in imminent danger before you can use deadly force.
Usually, the prosecutor or jury will side with you, but it could easily turn against you. Our state law says that you must positively identify your "threat" before you use deadly force.
I know of one case (before the 911 system) where a fireman was shot because he was mistaken for a burglar; he was trying to get to a fire in the kitchen that had been reported by a neighbor, who thought the occupants of the house were away on vacation. (Actually, they had returned unexpectedly after dark.)
I'm saying this only because I have a friend who met a "burglar" at his front door, did exactly what he was taught to do in the army, killed the intruder and was prosecuted for murder and sent to prison. An intruder is a trespasser; he does not become a burglar until he has removed your belongings crom your premesis. In this state, that is a difference between a misdemeanor and a felony. And, you may never use deadly force against an intruder unless your life or the life of another is in imminent danger. And, your split-second decision to shoot will be interpreted by a prosecutor, a judge and a jury. If they come to a different conclusion after hours of discussion and debate than you did in a split second, you will be the loser.
The best option is always to flood the area with light, identify the threat and this will usually result in the intruder exiting, stage right. And, this will shake you up a bit but it will save you hours of interrogation, weeks of worry, the cost of a lawyer and possibly adverse reactions from your family, friends and neighbors.
Shooting is a last resort, and it often means you have done something wrong.
One last thought: This is a public forum. If you are ever involved in the scenario you described, your own words can be used in court to "prove" that you had prior intent to commit a homicide.
As they tell you in the second degree: "Be circumspect!".
That's as loud as I can shout a whispered word to the wise.

[45Smashemflat]

Well said - the point is the the luminous sites have little tactical value except to find the gun - as I had posted before and had numerous others. The concept of ID'ing your target using any means possible - such as flashlights, cyalumes (good one, by the way, hadn't thought of that!!) - is important in any shooting discipline from self defense to target shooting - "be sure of your back stop" is somewhere in the Top Ten. (Whether that back stop is a person intent to do you harm, or a solid berm, is equally important.) Home/self defense is in layers. Fence, floodlights, deadbolts, intruder detection - alarm backed up by dog - interior motion lights - flashlights, land line backed up by cell phone, etc etc etc.... A gun in the night stand does not a self defense plan make.

[inplanotx]

Pistolsmith, well said. However, here in Tejas, if I catch you in my house, you become a statistic fast. If I catch you on my property at night, you become a statistic. We're a little more against the criminal element here in Texas.

[Marlin]

The same is true in Alabama, IPT.

In fact, the maximum penalty for breaking and entering a resident domicile at night is a capital crime. Domicile, incidentally, includes all the adjacent land owned, etc.

[Pistolsmith]

There are some things to remember, these days:
Our president has abrogated probable cause. (Follow this
Any level of law enforcement officer can now (theoretically) read your post concerning the shooting of another person, decide that only a "terrorist" would think that way, ransack your home without a warrant, search you and your family, your car and possibly your associates WITHOUT PROBABLE CAUSE and you would have no recourse under the law. Just doing his job.
You can be charged for a homicide in FEDERAL court after you have been found not guilty of the crime in state court without double jeopardy, since the Fed charge is "depriving a person of Civil Rights."
A case that comes to mind is Byron DeLaBeckwith and the alledged killing of Medgar Evers. Think about it!
If he had kept his mouth shut, he would never have ended up in Federal court, never have gone to a federal prison and might still be alive.
I realize that this was not a shooting of somebody who was trespassing on his property; he thought the guy was trespassing on his civil rights, or something to that effect. Not important. What is important is that the case opened the door (case law) to a handy way for big brudda to abrogate double jeopardy.
These are very strange times, but you still have the right to remain silent before and after the fact, if you follow my meaning.
We probably don't have that much to fear from the present administration, but if the other party gets elected, anything can happen.
And, look what happened in California when O.J. Simpson was found guilty in a civil court after having been cleared of blame in a criminal court. (This was not DJ for OJ!)
And a final note, if you can read between the lines: General Rommel would probably have run roughshod over General Patton in Africa and Europe during the second world war...he had better tanks, heavier armament, heavier armor, etc...if he had not written a book in which he delineated his entire strategy and tactics for tank warfare. As Patton boasted: "Rommel, I read your &$#@@@ book!"
It is time to forget reading the sports page and spend the time re-reading Sun Tsu.
Time to get down off my soap box and exit, stage left, doffing my gray fedora and bouncing my cane. I'm outa here!

[bambihunter]

Same thing here in Oklahoma... We have the "make my day" law. It states:

A. The Legislature hereby recognizes that the citizens of the State of
Oklahoma have a right to expect absolute safety within their own
homes.
B. Any occupant of a dwelling is justified in using any degree of physical
force, including but not limited to deadly force, against another person
who has made an unlawful entry into that dwelling and when the
occupant has a reasonable belief that such other person might use any
physical force, no matter how slight, against any occupant of the
dwelling.
C. Any occupant of a dwelling using physical force, including but not
limited to deadly force, pursuant to the provisions of subsection B of
this section, shall have an affirmative defense in any criminal
prosecution for an offense arising from the reasonable use of such force
and shall be immune from any civil liability for injuries or death
resulting from the reasonable use of such force.
D. The provisions of this section and the provisions of the Oklahoma Self-
Defense Act, Sections 1 through 25 of this act, shall not be construed to
require any person using a pistol pursuant to the provisions of this
section to be licensed in any manner.

If you care to verify it here's the link: O.S.B.I. (page 31, section: "Physical or deadly force against an intruder").

Remember statistically many gun owners are killed with thier own guns. I think many gun owners draw them as a threat with no real previous thought as to whether or not they will use them. Many will probably say I'm in the wrong but I decided after my first back surgery that I would no longer be able to fight anyone off and would likely suffer severe bodily harm even trying to do so. After my surgery weakened me physically, it strengthened my resolve to never let anyone get close enough to try to wrestle my firearm from me. Out "in the world" it's a different game, but in my home I feel I can keep potential bad guys at bay. Hopefully if/when the alarm goes off the bad guy(s) would bolt and never come in...

[bambihunter]

BTW, PistolSmith, I do get what you're saying. I'm not going to change what I'm going to do within my home. Don't think I'm some kind of trigger happy nut. I'm VERY paranoid about using my weapon outside the home. My wife knows if there is ANY chance to practice flight instead of fight to save us it will be excercised. The way the laws are written here you're pretty safe about inside the home, but outside the home you better have witnesses, video footage, and a note from God himself before you shoot someone in self defense...

Well, that's all I'll say on the topic;
We sure varied from the original topic anyway...

[pickenup]

We have a “make my day” law here too, and I would use it, if I feel threatened in my home.

bambihunter,
When have you known a post NOT to stray off topic. LOL

As to the original post. Since I posted this, I have shot a “low light” match where the conditions were “just right” to actually use the night sites. They worked great, all solid hits, no missed, and no hostages hit. BUT it comes back to my original point. Identifying the target. I would not have been able to tell one person from another, under those lighting conditions.

[bambihunter]

Originally Posted by pickenup

bambihunter,
When have you known a post NOT to stray off topic. LOL

You mean like it's trying to do again right now???
I'll go back and edit my previous posts just to keep people from percieving it wrong (I won't argue anymore whether my ideas were or not).


This is when you know you've got a decent group of guys; you can have a disagreement and the "arguement" stayed friendly and didn't get personal. Other than being called a terrorist that is...
LOL

[Pistolsmith]

Come on, I didn't call you a "terrorist". I was talking about what a LE officer can now do under the Presidential order to remove the necessity for probable cause before a search.
I'm just trying to determine what others, in other states, have in their arsenal of tactics. And, while this is off topic in this thread, I thought that as long as you are all in attendance...
OK, I'll leave you all alone.

[bambihunter]

I was kidding PistolSmith, didn't ya see the wink and the LOL?

[Pistolsmith]

Back on topic:
After the above exchange, I was left with more questions than answers, so I ordered an XS Sight Systems set of luminous sights for my carry pistol. That new setup should answer all of the outstanding questions once and for all.
My carry pistol is a S&W 3953 da only, presently equipped with 3 dot sights in a low mount configuration. I have never liked the 3 dot system, since it is very slow to align properly.
I have never liked 9X19 cartridges for self-defense, so the first thing I did was to re-chamber to 9X21 and load with 147 grain XTP bullets at a higher velocity than some manuals show, to allow the full reaction of the projectiles in a target. I never, for one minute, believed the misguided garbage that certain "expert" gun writers wrote against the 147's at sub-sonic velocities. It is simply a well proven fact that 115 and 124 grain bullets are not the optimum in a 9mm parabellum round when the pistol has a short barrel.
By way of testing, I had thought of some unique dodges to try, but my range is controlled by people who forbid experiments with terminal ballistics, silhouette targets or anything not connected with shooting Bambi and Smoky, or some other hapless species of "game animal", so I'm limited to accuracy tests during daylight hours.
My present load will duplicate the ballistics of a .357 magnum with the same bullet weight and barrel length. It would be rated +P+ (supersonic.)
I'll report back with results using the new sight system.

[Pistolsmith]

My new set of XS Express Tritium front and rear Sights arrived earlier today, so I installed them on my carry 3953.
First thing I realized was that my very expensive sight installer ($600) WOULD NOT BE USEABLE. Instructions with the set expressly state that sight installers are not to be used. So, I did it their way. Or, nearly their way. It proved nearly impossible to fit the front sight as per their instructions, so I did it my way and went about mounting the rear sight the same way. Both dovetails are q;uite a bit oversized, so it took me about an hour to get them mounted in line with the bore, as determined by a 9mm laser capsule in the chamber.
First thing I noticed was that the wide V notch gives a fast aligning sight picture. The sight set I recently installed on my Luger carbine has the same wide V notch. There is no procrastinating about aligning a blade and notch, as with patridge sights.
I opted for the large ring, since it seems to align much faster than the smaller ring front sight. I can't shoot in darkness or semi-darkness because of range rules, but I will be doing a bit of dry fire in the penumbra of my bedroom and hall.
Then, I'll give it a good tryout on the range and try to determine whether I'd advise anyone else to invest about two hundred bucks in a set of luminous sights. The luminosity might prove useful on the very dimly lit indoor range where I fire occasionally. And, I'm going to compare these sights with the new LaserMax I have just installed on one of my .45's.
Does that sound like a fair test agenda?
Do any of you live in the I-5 SeaTac area and want to join in on this test?

[pickenup]

Just wondering, why can’t you use the sight installer?

Anyway, test sounds good. Let us know how it does. I have a LazerMax in one of my pistols. I REALLY like it, but would not depend on it to save my life. You know how it goes with ANYTHING battery operated, just when you need it, there it goes. LOL