10mm is better than .45

[Raven18940]

I'm bored, so don't get to rilled up about this. I think 10mm is a superior cartidge to .45. Care to prove me wrong?

[Smoky14]

Good luck with the Supra, they are as rare as 10MM. The Camray and the 45 will get the job done.

Smoky the common

[Shooter45]

Based on your experience, tell us why you think the 10mm is superior to the .45ACP round. In all my years of competitive shooting I have never seen anyone using the 10mm round.

[Xracer]

Over the 99 year history of .45ACP, many "superior" rounds have come....and gone.

Why? Because over the years, the 45 Auto round has proved to have the best combination of desireable attributes any large-bore round can have....reliability, man-stopping cabability, and inherent accuracy.

Of course, it doesn't hurt that .45ACP is the primary caliber of the greatest pistol ever designed, the M1911.

When a better pistol and cartridge are invented, John M. Browning will invent them. 'Course, he's dead now, so don't hold your breath.

[LDBennett]

The 10 mm in the 1911 Colt was the first commercially successful 10 mm pistol. So it is part of the Colt 1911 John Browning family, not an outcast!

The 10 mm has a power advantage over the 45ACP that no amount of hot loading of the 45ACP will ever acheive. Does that make it better? Depends on what you want.

Because of that high power aspect, the 10 mm is harder to shoot and probably is not a good defense gun. The recoil on mine with full loads twist the gun in your hand unlike any other gun I have shot. That twisting might make a second shot harder to get on target.

Of course you can download the 10 mm, which is exactly what I do. I have had the gun since Colt first released them for public consumption. After the inital WOW of the recoil I lowered the power level to that of the 45ACP in order to enjoy shooting it. I occassionally shoot 10 mm full power loads for effect but I regularly shoot the down loaded version. Then why not just have a 45ACP? or a 40 S&W which is the exact same power level that I download to? Perhaps to be able to occasionally experience the power of 10 mm.

Is one better than the other? Who cares! They are different. I own many different caliber handguns in order to experience their different characteristics. So why not a 10 mm and a 45ACP and a 357 and a 357 MAX and a 32 ACP and a 38 SPL and a 40 S&W and a 25 ACP and a........ I got them all!

LDBennett

[Shooter45]

Just a side note.

A gunshop here has a nice used Colt Delta Elite 10mm for $799.

Anyone interested drop me an email and I'll put you in touch.

[Raven18940]

Just a side note.
A gunshop here has a nice used Colt Delta Elite 10mm for $799.
Anyone interested drop me an email and I'll put you in touch.

DAMN IT! Curse not being 21!

Good luck with the Supra, they are as rare as 10MM. The Camray and the 45 will get the job done.

Yeah, but the supra will get the job done much quicker and faster!

Anyway reasons why I think 10mm/.40S&W is better than 45
1. Better case design which allows them to be loaded to much higher camber pressures than .45
2. Higher velocity for flatter trajectory (ok this really doesn't matter in a pistol)
3. Smaller diameter, so more bullets in every mag! (7 45 versus 8 10mm in a Delta elite, wilson combat mags don't count!)
4. MORE POWER!!!

[Bullseye]

In all my years of competitive shooting I have never seen anyone using the 10mm round.

That pretty much sums it up for me as well. It seems that the majority of competitive shooters DO NOT consider the 10mm to be superior for their uses. I'll take the 45 as well.

[Shooter45]

The higher velocity doesn't mean alot when it comes to accuracy. The .45 acp round running about 800 - 850 fps will group tight in a properly fitted pistol. Not so with the faster 10mm.


And 8 rounds ?? My Colt Commander is loaded with 9 rounds of .45 ACP right now, thanks to the Wilson Combat mag. ( I know, I read your post )
It seems the 10mm just never gained the popularity of the gun culture. The FBI tried it for a while and had problems with over penatration. No use shooting the bad guy and wounding one of your own or a bystander as the bullet passed thru. They dropped the 10mm in favor of the .40 cal. Then had accuracy problems with the .40 cal round. Took a while to work that out. Now it seems most are carrying 1911's in .45ACP. Go figure.

[Raven18940]

Originally Posted by Shooter45

And 8 rounds ?? My Colt Commander is loaded with 9 rounds of .45 ACP right now, thanks to the Wilson Combat mag. ( I know, I read your post )

No fair, you counted the one in the camber.

As for 10mm, sure it may be too powerful for it's own good, but I still think it's a good round. I was really just bored and wanted to stur up some trouble. I really want either a P16-40 or a P14-45, a 10mm would be too expensive to feed on my poor college student budget. In the end I'll probably get a P14 or some other hi-cap 1911 cause there are many more parts for .45 caliber.

[Shooter45]

I had a Para P-16 I used a few years ago in IPSC Limited competition. Briley bull barrel, Bo-Mar adj sights ,etc. Very accurate pistol.

[stash247]

There are those among us who endure, even desire, exceptional punishment. I am not among them. Neither are three classes of FBI agent trainees, who could not be brought to acceptable accuracy standards, with the 10 mm.
It's one heck of a round, at full throttle loading, but more than most shooters, and most guns (Colt Included) are up to.
The 38 Super has equivalent ballistics, and much less recoil. For recoil reports, ask shooters of the caliber; for terminal ballistic reports, survivors. (These may be MUCH harder to find). Funny thing, though, the "Survivors" group paralells the same group, shot, in anger, with a .45 ACP.
Once you are dead, you tend to stay in that condition, so my thought is that, if ENOUGH GUN is already available, why up-scale?
I've shot the original, for forty years, and it's ENOUGH GUN, so, why change; it works pretty well, body count considered.
Help me here, if you will, because I don't see the problem.

[Greg]

1) Ammo cost. The 10mm is going to cost more.
2) Power yes. Personal defense-over penetration, and less accuracy/ repeatability-hot load.

On paper, it looks great. In shooting it for defense or target, I'll take the .45 anyday. Same cartridge, the .357 SIG, the S & W .40, and the 10mm all have ballistics on paper that are impressive. All have been tried, and not count on or held onto like the good 'ole .45.

The same thing holds true with the .454 Casull in a wheelgun. Power yes, but... I'll take a 44 magnum or Dan Wesson .445 supermag any day over the .454.

If you want the power in a semi-auto, and something different to shoot, go with the Desert Eagle in .50. Now that is a conversation piece. It is a much more enjoyable gun to shoot with power to burn. It will put most body armor to shame. However, it might not fit in the Supra's glove box

[Raven18940]

Originally Posted by stash247

Once you are dead, you tend to stay in that condition, so my thought is that, if ENOUGH GUN is already available, why up-scale?

Because this is america and we can, damn it!

On paper, it looks great. In shooting it for defense or target, I'll take the .45 anyday. Same cartridge, the .357 SIG, the S & W .40, and the 10mm all have ballistics on paper that are impressive. All have been tried, and not count on or held onto like the good 'ole .45.

Peoples attachment to the .45 is down right scary some times. They think it's the greatest cartidge ever made. .40 S&W has very similar ballistics in a smaller package, so you have more in every mag. Why my 1911 carrying friend calls it .40 small and weak is beyond me. It'd do one hell of a number on you. The recoil felt the same when I fired .40 and .45 so it has to be at least close.

[45Smashemflat]

The key here is "better for what?" Personal Defense? I think that's been covered, but to re-hash, the 10mm will put a man down - but in a combat situation will the user be capable of combat accuracy with fast repeatable hits? Not without lots of expensive practice.

Perhaps to be able to hunt with a reasonably packable semi-auto? Now, we're getting somewhere, can't do that legally with a 45, but you can with a 10mm.....

Like your car note at the bottom, it just depends on what you want to do with it.

Hey, my .38 is currently better than my .45....why? I'm carrying the .38, that makes it better....

[Pabooger]

Sorry it's not a 1911, but I do like it
S&W 1086 10mm
Until I can afford a 1911 this will have to do!!!

[Raven18940]

Originally Posted by 45Smashemflat

Hey, my .38 is currently better than my .45....why? I'm carrying the .38, that makes it better....

I agree with that, while I like the 10mm cause it's the most powerful auto loading cartidge ever to be cambered in anything not a Desert Eagle, I can't handle at this point by any means. I have trouble with .45 and .40 right now, I'd be comfortable with anything 9mm/.38 and below cause I can handle that and repeat shots are easy. Hell I rather carry a .22 over a .45, cause I shot .22 a whole lot easier. Some day I may carry a 10mm, just cause I can, but not before I can handle it. I still think it's better.

[inplanotx]

Raven,
The whole secret about using a certain cartridge is PRACTICE, PRACTICE and PRACTICE. Unless you reload, the 10mm factory loads are near max. You can purchase 45 ACP ammo that is downloaded to target velocities and use this to PRACTICE!

[45Smashemflat]

That's a nice-un Pa!! Shoot good?

Tomorrow, my 45 may be better than my 38, just depends. For me, its kinda like beer - what kind is best? The kind I can put my hands on when I need (want) it.....

[Cheimison]

Originally Posted by 45Smashemflat

The key here is "better for what?" Personal Defense? I think that's been covered, but to re-hash, the 10mm will put a man down - but in a combat situation will the user be capable of combat accuracy with fast repeatable hits? Not without lots of expensive practice.

10mm will put a a god damn grizzly bear down. I like 10mm, and it is ballistically superior. The question is are you a) good enough to make quick followup shots or b) good enough to make the first shot the fight stopper. If neither of those your 10mm is just going to get in the way.
Now a .40 is basically better than a .45. Easier to handle, same basic ballistics, better penetration and smaller size. .45ACP can kill you (although pistol shots are not really fatal, I know four people have been shot over 4 times [at once] by .45, 9mm and a .357Mag. .357 for chrissakes! Of course my AK mocks .357 magnum and even .50AE - bring a rifle to a pistol fight) but .45ACP has some issues with gun reliability in hollowpoint (many 1911s) and velocity - which make for unreliable expansion and less penetration. Personally I'll stick with my 9x19 +P+, but I'm checking out alternative rounds.

And by God if you're that damn good, carry a .454 on you.

[stash247]

C, I will not argue with your point about power, except, to say, look at the early ads for the Browning .25- They killed a Bear, too.
Fact, as I see it, is that a .40 S&W does nothing a .45 acp won't do, but at TWICE the chamber pressure.
The 10MM is the round that "made", courtesy of the FBI, the .40 S&W; they wanted more gun to compensate for their own lack of marksmanship (training ?), and could not buy a pistol that would stay together at 10mm power levels, so they loaded down, in deference to troops and equiptment.
Now we have the 10 Lite/FBI, or, in a smaller package, the .40 S&W.
All cops are not shooters, and, obviously, all shooters are not cops. In a perfect world, where guns do not break, or malfunction, the ORIGINAL 10 MM recipe is a good one- LOTS of power. But, guns break, and, when heavily stressed, do this often,
The 10 is longer, and a bit hotter, than the 1911 was ever designed for- exoneration of JMB;
And, IMHO, as I have said before, Dead is Dead; no round known to man can make one moreso. Do the job right, the first time, and paper ballistics are NOT an issue.
I will admit, and freely, that the 10 is a better round, ballistically, but submit that the very power of the round kills every platform in which it has been chambered, prematurely.
Should someone build a gun around this round, specifically, I would be the first, or, at least in the early crowd, to consider the pistol; it just hasn't yet been built, to my knowledge.

[inplanotx]

Since everyone here seems to think and reply in terms of what is better, why not think in terms of data that can be related to. How about stopping power? This type of data is readily available on numerous sites on the internet. If you are really interested read this.

Handgun stopping power

Chuck Hawks is a well known gun author and writes for many magazines. Here is how he sums up stopping power for the 9mm, 10mm, 40S&W and 45ACP. Remember, this is compiled data.

CALIBER LOAD Bullet MV ME Stop_Pwr

9x19 Corbon+P 115gr 1321 454 91%

10mm Win 175gr 1250 607 92%

40S&W Rem GS 165gr 1150 485 94%

45 ACP Fed HS 230gr 819 366 94%

So, what does this prove? You don't need a race car to win the race. That's right folks, for defense loads, the heavy and slow has been the winner for more than 100 years. So you keep you fast movers and shakers, I'll take my 45 ACP JMB proven weapon any day against any of the above. JMHO!

[CBR1000RR]

Originally Posted by Cheimison

I know four people have been shot over 4 times [at once] by .45, 9mm and a .357Mag. .357 for chrissakes!.

...they were lucky a really bad shot was popping rounds at em! !
a .22 in the right place has put many a man on the coroner's slab. It comes down to which gun you shoot the best (accuracy, consistency of shot groupings, and comfort level with the pistol) If someone shoots their lil makarov better than their .45 or .40 by god bring that one to the gun fight.

[ryan_marine]

UMMM 45 still used my MEUSOC they built the pistol for the the purpose of stopping power. I still prefer the 45

Ray

[Cheimison]

At close range in a defensive situation a lot of what 10mm does better is going to be basically irrelevant. The same goes for penetration, a 9mm penetrates better than a .45 any day but from 8' away a .45 has plenty of penetrating capacity.
I was thinking more in terms of a duty weapon for a police officer, protection agent or armed security - where you might have to shoot at someone who isn't up in your face ready to kill you, but maybe someone else. If you take out all the cases at 12' or less I'll be you the 9mm and 10mm both go up a bit while .45 goes down.

Also, one shot stops aren't really 'the deal', because you should never rely on your first round - 10mm and .45 both have appreciable recoil while a 9mm can be fired in 3 shot bursts with reasonable accuracy.