C & R questions

[djohns6]

I mailed my ATF form off today and I have a few questions . Suppose I
order a C & R firearm and when it comes in , my buddy likes it so much he offers to buy it for a small profit to me . Technically , I'm just using that money to enhance my collection if I turn around and buy another gun right ?
What does the ATF think about this sort of thing ?

Also , where is the best place to obtain a " bound book " ?

THANKS

[offeror]

Nope. There's no point in getting started with a C&R with that sort of thing on your mind. A C&R is strictly to acquire guns for yourself.

If the ATF catches you (or a local dealer suspects you of) passing a gun along when you get it, whether you make a profit or just break even, you are in trouble. Let your buddy fend for himself. If he envies your guns maybe he'll get his own C&R or find a similar gun at a gun show. If you worry about your buddies, you can screw things up for yourself.

What does the ATF think about this sort of thing ?

They will be happy to nail your hide to a wall for it. Keep in mind, felons can no longer own ANY guns.

[22WRF]

Along those lines (Sales)
I sent my renewal off yesterday.
When you fill out the renewal form it asks how guns have you bought in the 3 years you had the license and how many you sold.
Theses numbers must match your Bound Book.
If you don't renew you send your bound book to ATF.

[djohns6]

Maybe you guys misunderstood my question. I know I can't buy a gun with the intention of reselling it . However , I must be able to sell a firearm to be able to enhance my collection , right ? I was just wondering what would raise a flag to the ATF .

[22WRF]

I was just wondering what would raise a flag to the ATF .

I think that is something that is only known by BATF.

[offeror]

djohn - All I'm saying is, there's no point in fudging. You buy guns with a C&R to keep. If you trade up, aren't you going to give up the lesser gun AND money to replace it with a better one? And you'll have the new gun to show for the absence of the one you got via your C&R license. There's just no point in planning on doing any "wink, wink" selling of the guns you acquire with the C&R. Again, they are to keep. Anything else will attract attention, either because a dealer will hear about the guy using his C&R to sell EVEN ONE SINGLE gun for profit, or because an acquaintance talks about how he got a deal on a gun through you (this can happen several degrees of separation away from you) or the ATF can check on you and find out firsthand some way.

There is no way to finesse a C&R to pass guns along to others, even occasionally. That's either called "doing business" which is illegal or "straw purchase" which is illegal.

Upgrading your collection will COST you, not profit you. And it is better to keep what you buy and enlarge a collection than to be swapping out guns and attracting attention. If you can't afford to collect a number of guns without getting rid of what you have, it may be better to buy fewer guns than you might have intended. The ATF can judge that you are doing business even if you claim otherwise. And they have the final word on it, no matter what you claim is going on. So be careful. By the way, when the ATF is trying to decide if you acquired a gun for your collection or some other reason, they will judge the time you kept that gun -- in terms of YEARS, not days...

[1952Sniper]

Originally Posted by 22WRF

Along those lines (Sales)
I sent my renewal off yesterday.
When you fill out the renewal form it asks how guns have you bought in the 3 years you had the license and how many you sold.
Theses numbers must match your Bound Book.
If you don't renew you send your bound book to ATF.

One minor correction. If you don't renew your C&R license, you don't have to send your bound book to the ATF. You keep it.

As for the selling, I agree with offeror. The BATF realizes that you may occasionally sell a C&R firearm. That's just a natural part of collecting. But they will take interest in how long you had it. And they will look for patterns as well as intent. If you think it may look suspicious, then don't do it.

Even aside from the legality of it, I think it should be discouraged. The BATF has made it abundantly clear that the C&R license is for collecting only. If they find a lot of people using it to "deal" in firearms on the side, they may shut it down entirely. As I understand it, the popularity of the C&R license has really taken off in the last couple of years. And so the BATF is starting to see the C&R license as a pain in the rear and not worth messing with. For the sake of C&R licensees everywhere, please be responsible with it. Don't ruin it for the rest of us.

[22WRF]

If you don't renew your C&R license, you don't have to send your bound book to the ATF. You keep it.

Maybe this is new.

On the renewal form it says if you are not renewing fill out this section (Non Renewal) and return the from with your bound book to ATF.

[djohns6]

Look guys , I wasn't looking for a way to circumvent the rules and sell guns
for a profit . I only meant that IF somebody took a liking to one of my guns
and I WAS willing to part with it , would it look fishy ?
That's all . Nothing more . Thanks for your input .

[offeror]

As I recall, the ATF has now stated explicitly somewhere in their literature that since a C&R is not a business and a collector is not a dealer, the bound book need not be turned in when you retire your license. It is, however, to be available if they ask to see it I believe, at least during the period your license is active. Sorry I can't recall exactly where I read it.

[1952Sniper]

From the BATF's FAQ page:

(G8) Are licensed collectors required to turn in their acquisition/ disposition records to ATF if their collector's license is not renewed or they discontinue their collecting activity?

No. The GCA requires the delivery of required records to the Government within 30 days after a firearms "business" is discontinued. A license as a collector of curios or relics does not authorize any business with respect to firearms. This is in contrast to firearms importers, manufacturers, and dealers who are licensed to engage in a firearms business. Therefore, the records required to be kept by licensed collectors under the law and regulations are not business records and are not required to be turned in to ATF when collector's licenses are not renewed or collecting activity under such licenses is discontinued.[18 U. S. C. 923( g)( 4), 27 CFR 178.127]

[MPinkston]

I recently sold a few C&R's which I didn't replace with similar guns. My intent is to change the overall direction of my collecting. I don't believe ATF would have a problem with this reasonning. My .02 worth......Mark

[offeror]

Thanks, 1952. Maybe they need to start using visual aids in print, like so:

(G8) Are licensed collectors required to turn in their acquisition/ disposition records to ATF if their collector's license is not renewed or they discontinue their collecting activity?

No. The GCA requires the delivery of required records to the Government within 30 days after a firearms "business" is discontinued. A license as a collector of curios or relics does not authorize any business with respect to firearms. This is in contrast to firearms importers, manufacturers, and dealers who are licensed to engage in a firearms business. Therefore, the records required to be kept by licensed collectors under the law and regulations are not business records and are not required to be turned in to ATF when collector's licenses are not renewed or collecting activity under such licenses is discontinued.[18 U. S. C. 923( g)( 4), 27 CFR 178.127]

I also wish they would do that in their statement that ANY GUN OVER 50 IS a C&R except when otherwise banned, and that the ATF's C&R LIST IS NOT INTENDED TO BE A COMPLETE LISTING, or words to that effect. Then we could send copies of the page in to all our favorite C&R distribs and get them on the same page with the law...

[offeror]

Pinkston,

I tend to agree with you assuming this was a one-time thing and nobody got a gun that wasn't entitled under law. The main thing is that the BATF won't try to mind-read anybody. They will go by overt actions, and let the actions speak for themselves regardless of the protestations of the gun collector, I think, and of course their attention must be attracted to a given C&R by one means or another. This can be a report from a local dealer concerned about misuse of a non-business license, or from a citizen, or from the cops when a gun turns up afoul of the law. Since they don't know what's in people's minds (and don't care beyond a certain narrow point), they'll look for a pattern, or profiting from gun sales, or straw purchasing, or providing guns to people who subsequently misuse them or aren't supposed to possess them. But on the other hand I don't think being pure in heart will save a collector if the violation is significant in their eyes, or the eyes of the community that reports it.

[MPinkston]

Originally Posted by 22WRF

Along those lines (Sales)
I sent my renewal off yesterday.
When you fill out the renewal form it asks how guns have you bought in the 3 years you had the license and how many you sold.
Theses numbers must match your Bound Book.
If you don't renew you send your bound book to ATF.

Actually, if you don't renew your 03 FFL, you do not send your bound book to ATF. Only if you don't renew your 01 FFL.