Tyler Texas Shooting

[LIKTOSHOOT]

CHL shot and killed, trying to defend. This should wake up all who have received this "limited" training. This man, some would consider a hero. I consider him one of the victims.


LTS

[xxxxxxl]

Why a victim? I'm curious.

[Roughrdr]

A victim of inadequte training, or a victim of his own devices.

[armedandsafe]

Shot perp center of mass, just as trained and recommended by so many. Shot perp while standing in open, at "face to face" distance. Didn't shoot and move, tried to "Hollywood." Didn't look for tell-tale signs of armor, intoxication, or drug high.

At least he took action. It is apparent he distracted the killer from finishing off the son, and, thus, saved his life. That makes him a hero in my book.

Pops

[Crpdeth]

Originally Posted by Roughrdr

A victim of inadequte training, or a victim of his own devices.

Hear Hear!

You dont have to be Rambo, I still consider him a hero, but why not make yourself less of a target? Maybe back off, find cover and go to work on the BG...I dont know I/we wern't there, but I cant see how making yourself a target is going to help your OWN family.

.002

[inplanotx]

Originally Posted by armedandsafe

Shot perp center of mass, just as trained and recommended by so many. Shot perp while standing in open, at "face to face" distance. Didn't shoot and move, tried to "Hollywood." Didn't look for tell-tale signs of armor, intoxication, or drug high.

At least he took action. It is apparent he distracted the killer from finishing off the son, and, thus, saved his life. That makes him a hero in my book.

Pops

The perp had a bullet proof vest AND a flak jacket on. Probably unknown to the poor hero type. Too bad, at least he did it by the regs!

[Silver72]

This was a front page article in todays Austin American Statesman. The victim was an instructor in CHL. The town is having a memorial for him in front of the court house. He did what he was trained to do.

[armedandsafe]

I suspect that is a major difference between civilian/paramilitary training and my own covert operations training. I was trained to take cover or concealment at the first threat, THEN look for a way to inject my presence into the fray. This is what I teach because I have found it to be effective.

Pops

[LIKTOSHOOT]

There are so many wrongs in this, where to begin???
(1)Engaging a target in the open at close range, without cover.
(2) Not continuing to fire when target does not go down (freezing) and seeking cover.
#(3) The shots to center mass are great in training but you need to also remember head is number three OR just below the beltline a few inches left or right and dead center counts too. Two things stop a target, central nervous systems or it`s platform. If you are unaware of the hip shot, you need to rethink your training (seriously) While this man did engage the target, he did everything wrong.
My point being, remember this.....it has happened before,ask the FBI about Florida and the numerous other shootings....(ie) California and the machinegun shoot out.

This should be a learning experience, but it appears that "still" no one uses these senerio`s in training.


LTS

[Neil]

the news report I read said flack jacket and bullet proof vest. What would it take to penetrate through both?. perhaps a knee shot. or like LTS said, a hip shot.

[Crpdeth]

Originally Posted by LIKTOSHOOT

This should be a learning experience, but it appears that "still" no one uses these senerio`s in training.
LTS

And most civilian instructors never will because the majority of the bad guys dont go down and invest in kevlar...You probabally already know I agree with you, more training IS in order, people need to know how to use cover, fire w/their weak hand, shoot while moving, shoot from prone, on their side, their back, bright sunlight, no sunlight, identifying body armor in a high stress situation may not be easy, but again I concur that training to fire upon the assailants head, inner thigh/femeral artery, hip, knees ect may be in order, but in these high stress scenarios I dont know how much training one would need in order to actually take those calculated, precise, shots at a moving target which is returning fire with an automatic rifle.

It may be unnecessary, but since I sound a little pugnacious, I want to reiterate that I agree with everything said, but even those with proper combat training seldom find the opportunity and the time to take advantage of their training in the frenzy of a gun battle...Play paintball one on one with someone in an abandoned CCB and it becomes quickly apparent that all those super tactical moves you planned to make just minutes before are debased to just tring to hit your opponent before he hits you.

Our civilian training is based on scenarios that we will, in all reality, most likely have to face. And out of the 100's of students my instructor has mentored, the possibility of any of us ever facing a semi-auto toting, kevlar wearing, bone head is very remote. There are some awsome defensive pistol courses out there that probabally should be an addendum to our CCW classes, but If people would just remember to always stay alert, watch their surroundings, identify possible problems and think rationally, they would be way ahead when an unfortunate situation like this does arise.

I've been thinking about the layout of our courthouse and I've got to say there are too many places to take cover and dispatch this guy from...Why would anyone just walk up and identify themselves to the BG, as the one who is here to "fix things" is beyond me.

Crpdeth

[LIKTOSHOOT]

Crpdeth, I must disagree with your Kevlar/flackjacket assumption. That has very little to do with the CHL`s engagement of the target. It is well know to disable the CNS of the target`s platform if the centermass has no results. Drug`s can enable a target to preform well beyond the human means and if you read the FBI`s Florida report and subsequent retraining of agents, those two targets were shot numerous times and continued to fight. No head shots nor hip shot`s, granted a hip shot will usally not kill, but it will take a target down and fast. The center mass below the beltline is still center mass and a major bone area for the platform. Simply shooting a fixed target for a score does not make you a handgun fighting expert and to me.....if you carry, you better know the basic`s of human antomy. Much like people here who test with a .45acp and carry a .22 because it`s easier/lighter/less bothersome to carry. When you carry, you had better know it all. If you don`t train that way, you will not reflex that way and reflex wins the day. Not thinking.


LTS

[Crpdeth]

I guess you kinda lost me Mike, what part do you dissagree with? the fact that most villians today wont be wearing body armor, or the thought that concentrating your fire on areas other than center mass would prove most effective? The reason instructors are trained to teach us to shoot for center mass is not only to stop the badguy, but also because alot of people just cant hit my head from 15 ft away...I saw one girl shoot the freeking dirt in front of her target that was 15 ft away during our CHL class, impressive huh?

I am positive that most of us here wouldn't have that problem, but face it, most people in that class will fire their little P32 once every four years to re-qualify...They would do good to hit center mass...Which, I admit, in most cases, will put the old boy on the ground.

Crpdeth

[LIKTOSHOOT]

I know we don`t disagree, but bullet resistant body armor is not the cause of the trajedy, training or lack of is. Like I said, the lower center mass is still center mass and can be hit at every angle. A head is the same size as upper center mass. Much like driving, some have a license, but a driver they will never be---lol


LTS

[Crpdeth]

Agreed, there are many different angles to look at this scenario from and certainally many have better endings. I wish we all had the time and could afford better training...To you and I, it seems to be interesting, something that should be considered and something we enjoy, Sadly, many others want to breeze through the course and step out into society with only the mininual requirements under their belt.

God help them.

Crpdeth

[Neil]

I for one wouldn't take a head shot cause I ain't that good yet. but I was always taught that the Pelvic area is Great. causes major trauma and internal bleeding.
We should turn this tradgity (sp) into a learning experience for us all here at the board. I'm just learning proper ccw etiquette so I am learning already from this poor mans mistakes.

[Crpdeth]

Originally Posted by Neil

so I am learning already from this poor mans mistakes.

If we can do that Neal, then this man may have done much more than initally observed...Practice with that iron brother, when you can keep 'em all in a pie pan at 50 yrds you have excelled 90% of the CCW class and should have no problem dispatching your assailant at 15 yards.

Besides that, It's fun to make the rest of the class look bad during re-qualification.

Crpdeth

[Neil]

I hear ya. Crpdeth. I don't know of any ccw classes in my area but I will try the pie pan thing.

[Crpdeth]

Oh well that was just a general comment Neal, that target is going to be a bear with alot of the weapons we are forced by concealability issues to carry...It would be one thing with a full size 1911, but a pocket sized gun is going to be a whole new ballgame...But you know what I mean.

Crpdeth

[IShootBack]

Could someone post the articles about this. It is widely discussed across the country. Tis is the first I read about the BP vest and body armor.

[Crpdeth]

Smith County officials and Tyler police released the courthouse video and audiotapes that detail eight minutes of terror in downtown Tyler last week when a man clad in body armor and armed with a semi-automatic rifle opened fire on his family and officers.

The video documents last Thursday's shootout at the courthouse as it unfolded, and 911 tapes fill in more details with sounds of shooting and reports by frantic callers as gunfire filled the street.

Images from a surveillance camera mounted inside the Spring Avenue entrance of the Smith County courthouse showed David Hernandez Arroyo Sr. as he approached his ex-wife and son at 1:28 p.m.

Suddenly Arroyo began firing a MAK-90 semi-automatic rifle, killing Maribel Estrada, 41, and injuring his son David Arroyo Jr. on the courthouse steps.

Bystanders in the frame scurried for cover as Smith County Sheriff deputies Sherman Dollison, 28, and Andy Langston ran outside with weapons drawn.

Dollison exchanged gunfire with Arroyo and then was shot repeatedly as the window behind him exploded inside the courthouse.

An unidentified man crawled to the doors - then as Arroyo ran southward down the street firing his rifle - the man jumped through the shattered glass window and crawled to safety.

As Arroyo confronted Mark Wilson, a licensed concealed handgun carrier who intervened to save lives, other lawmen began firing at Arroyo from inside the courthouse.

SCSO Lt. Marlin Suell, 38, Tyler Police Det. Clay Perrett, 54, and another unidentified deputy began exchanging gunfire with the man.

Suell suddenly slumped to the floor as he was shot in the back of the neck and Perrett continued to fire until he fell backward, hit in the side of the face by gunfire.

As Arroyo began to drive away, Smith County District Attorney Investigator Jim Castle ran through the metal detectors, then dropped to the floor as Arroyo fired another burst at the courthouse.

Castle rolled to a sitting position and returned fire until Arroyo drove past. Then he and other officers, including the injured Lt. Suell, swarmed out of the courthouse still firing at Arroyo's pickup.

The entire video sequence lasted less than four minutes.

While the video showed Arroyo and officers exchanging gunfire, the 911 tape recordings revealed how people reacted during the shooting.

911 TAPE

Tyler police and fire dispatchers were swamped with callers reporting the shooting and could hear the gunfire as the callers screamed, cried and begged for help.

Jeramy Skaggs was one of the first callers, and the tension could be heard in his voice as he described what he was witnessing.

"He's in a maroon truck and he's about to shoot someone. He's killing somebody right now," He got in his truck and is driving away but he's still firing out the window," Skaggs said.

The dispatcher assured him help was on the way.

Another call that came in clearly depicted the terror as the caller and those around her watched Arroyo kill Wilson.

The call started with people screaming and the sound of gunfire.

"No. No. No. Oh my God. He's killing them," the caller stated.

More gunfire was followed by more screams.

"No, no, no. Don't leave - stay here. Do not move," she told someone. "We need help - a guy has been shot in the head," she screamed.

Another female caller from the Smith County Clerk's office begged for help.

"Um, please, there's a shooting downtown. Please send police and ambulance," a female caller advised. "There's three people that I see that are down."

The dispatcher replied, "We have four down and we have help on the way."

One of the most disturbing calls came from Kelly Harlan, County Court at Law 2 coordinator.

"We are getting shot at," she reported to the dispatcher.

"We are on the way. We are trying to get the guy," the dispatcher said.

"Our bailiff's (Dollison) been shot," she said.

"We've got ambulance and fire on the way. Where's he (Dollison) at now?" the dispatcher asked.

"He's outside the back," she said and began crying.

"The bailiff's outside the door?" the dispatcher asked.

"I think he went out. He's been shot. They're going to need an ambulance," she said, crying.

"We are on the way, OK?" the dispatcher assured the woman.

"OK," she replied and hung up.

Sirens began to fill the air as dispatchers tried to remain calm and take information from other callers as they reported what they saw.

The dispatchers didn't just take calls from citizens, but also from law enforcement officers enrobe to the shooting and in pursuit of Arroyo.

SMITH COUNTY RECORDING

The dispatcher at the Smith County 911 Center began dispatching all units to the courthouse at 1:28 p.m.

"Need all units to the courthouse to search at the courthouse. We have a man on the roof shooting with a rifle. All units run code. All units run code. We got reports he has a machine gun," she said, with urgency in her voice.

At 1:30 p.m., as deputies check in, the dispatcher ordered units to respond to the courthouse.

One deputy called in saying there were three game wardens inside Loop 323 who could help.

"I need all available units to start that way immediately," she said, again showing more urgency.

As the situation developed with more officers responding, the suspect fled the scene in his pickup still firing on officers.

"OK. He's going to be in a red truck going towards Spring (Avenue). We have officers in pursuit," she said.

At 1:33 p.m., additional officers joined the chase.

"Suspects name is David Arroyo driving a two-tone Chevrolet extended cab headed northbound. Tyler PD is en route," a deputy called in.

Another deputy called in saying shots were being fired.

"We are in pursuit going northbound on East Gentry at M.L. King. Shots fired, shots fired," the deputy yelled.

At 1:35 p.m. a deputy called into dispatch saying he was en route to East Texas Medical Center with Dollison, who was shot multiple times by Arroyo.

"Show me en route to Medical Center ER. One of our officers has been shot. I have Dr. Anderson in the car working on him at this time," he said.

One minute later the deputy driving to the hospital asked his fellow deputies if the man had been caught.

"Do y'all have the suspect," the deputy carrying Dollison to the hospital asked. "Do y'all have the suspect," he asked again.

"Suspect (Arroyo) is down," another deputy said.

"We got him; he's out. He's down," Lt. Larry Wiginton said.

Within eight minutes Arroyo had killed his ex-wife and Wilson, had shot his own son, Dollison, Perrett and Suell, and led police on a two-mile chase where he continued firing on officers before being killed.

Sheriff J.B. Smith said he believes all the officers involved showed great courage under fire and acted in a very timely manner.

"These guys went above the call of duty and were able to get the situation under control as quickly as possible," he said.Smith County officials and Tyler police released the courthouse video and audiotapes that detail eight minutes of terror in downtown Tyler last week when a man clad in body armor and armed with a semi-automatic rifle opened fire on his family and officers.

The video documents last Thursday's shootout at the courthouse as it unfolded, and 911 tapes fill in more details with sounds of shooting and reports by frantic callers as gunfire filled the street.

Images from a surveillance camera mounted inside the Spring Avenue entrance of the Smith County courthouse showed David Hernandez Arroyo Sr. as he approached his ex-wife and son at 1:28 p.m.

Suddenly Arroyo began firing a MAK-90 semi-automatic rifle, killing Maribel Estrada, 41, and injuring his son David Arroyo Jr. on the courthouse steps.

Bystanders in the frame scurried for cover as Smith County Sheriff deputies Sherman Dollison, 28, and Andy Langston ran outside with weapons drawn.

Dollison exchanged gunfire with Arroyo and then was shot repeatedly as the window behind him exploded inside the courthouse.

An unidentified man crawled to the doors - then as Arroyo ran southward down the street firing his rifle - the man jumped through the shattered glass window and crawled to safety.

As Arroyo confronted Mark Wilson, a licensed concealed handgun carrier who intervened to save lives, other lawmen began firing at Arroyo from inside the courthouse.

SCSO Lt. Marlin Suell, 38, Tyler Police Det. Clay Perrett, 54, and another unidentified deputy began exchanging gunfire with the man.

Suell suddenly slumped to the floor as he was shot in the back of the neck and Perrett continued to fire until he fell backward, hit in the side of the face by gunfire.

As Arroyo began to drive away, Smith County District Attorney Investigator Jim Castle ran through the metal detectors, then dropped to the floor as Arroyo fired another burst at the courthouse.

Castle rolled to a sitting position and returned fire until Arroyo drove past. Then he and other officers, including the injured Lt. Suell, swarmed out of the courthouse still firing at Arroyo's pickup.

The entire video sequence lasted less than four minutes.

While the video showed Arroyo and officers exchanging gunfire, the 911 tape recordings revealed how people reacted during the shooting.

911 TAPE

Tyler police and fire dispatchers were swamped with callers reporting the shooting and could hear the gunfire as the callers screamed, cried and begged for help.

Jeramy Skaggs was one of the first callers, and the tension could be heard in his voice as he described what he was witnessing.

"He's in a maroon truck and he's about to shoot someone. He's killing somebody right now," He got in his truck and is driving away but he's still firing out the window," Skaggs said.

The dispatcher assured him help was on the way.

Another call that came in clearly depicted the terror as the caller and those around her watched Arroyo kill Wilson.

The call started with people screaming and the sound of gunfire.

"No. No. No. Oh my God. He's killing them," the caller stated.

More gunfire was followed by more screams.

"No, no, no. Don't leave - stay here. Do not move," she told someone. "We need help - a guy has been shot in the head," she screamed.

Another female caller from the Smith County Clerk's office begged for help.

"Um, please, there's a shooting downtown. Please send police and ambulance," a female caller advised. "There's three people that I see that are down."

The dispatcher replied, "We have four down and we have help on the way."

One of the most disturbing calls came from Kelly Harlan, County Court at Law 2 coordinator.

"We are getting shot at," she reported to the dispatcher.

"We are on the way. We are trying to get the guy," the dispatcher said.

"Our bailiff's (Dollison) been shot," she said.

"We've got ambulance and fire on the way. Where's he (Dollison) at now?" the dispatcher asked.

"He's outside the back," she said and began crying.

"The bailiff's outside the door?" the dispatcher asked.

"I think he went out. He's been shot. They're going to need an ambulance," she said, crying.

"We are on the way, OK?" the dispatcher assured the woman.

"OK," she replied and hung up.

Sirens began to fill the air as dispatchers tried to remain calm and take information from other callers as they reported what they saw.

The dispatchers didn't just take calls from citizens, but also from law enforcement officers enrobe to the shooting and in pursuit of Arroyo.

SMITH COUNTY RECORDING

The dispatcher at the Smith County 911 Center began dispatching all units to the courthouse at 1:28 p.m.

"Need all units to the courthouse to search at the courthouse. We have a man on the roof shooting with a rifle. All units run code. All units run code. We got reports he has a machine gun," she said, with urgency in her voice.

At 1:30 p.m., as deputies check in, the dispatcher ordered units to respond to the courthouse.

One deputy called in saying there were three game wardens inside Loop 323 who could help.

"I need all available units to start that way immediately," she said, again showing more urgency.

As the situation developed with more officers responding, the suspect fled the scene in his pickup still firing on officers.

"OK. He's going to be in a red truck going towards Spring (Avenue). We have officers in pursuit," she said.

At 1:33 p.m., additional officers joined the chase.

"Suspects name is David Arroyo driving a two-tone Chevrolet extended cab headed northbound. Tyler PD is en route," a deputy called in.

Another deputy called in saying shots were being fired.

"We are in pursuit going northbound on East Gentry at M.L. King. Shots fired, shots fired," the deputy yelled.

At 1:35 p.m. a deputy called into dispatch saying he was en route to East Texas Medical Center with Dollison, who was shot multiple times by Arroyo.

"Show me en route to Medical Center ER. One of our officers has been shot. I have Dr. Anderson in the car working on him at this time," he said.

One minute later the deputy driving to the hospital asked his fellow deputies if the man had been caught.

"Do y'all have the suspect," the deputy carrying Dollison to the hospital asked. "Do y'all have the suspect," he asked again.

"Suspect (Arroyo) is down," another deputy said.

"We got him; he's out. He's down," Lt. Larry Wiginton said.

Within eight minutes Arroyo had killed his ex-wife and Wilson, had shot his own son, Dollison, Perrett and Suell, and led police on a two-mile chase where he continued firing on officers before being killed.

Sheriff J.B. Smith said he believes all the officers involved showed great courage under fire and acted in a very timely manner.

"These guys went above the call of duty and were able to get the situation under control as quickly as possible," he said.Smith County officials and Tyler police released the courthouse video and audiotapes that detail eight minutes of terror in downtown Tyler last week when a man clad in body armor and armed with a semi-automatic rifle opened fire on his family and officers.

The video documents last Thursday's shootout at the courthouse as it unfolded, and 911 tapes fill in more details with sounds of shooting and reports by frantic callers as gunfire filled the street.

Images from a surveillance camera mounted inside the Spring Avenue entrance of the Smith County courthouse showed David Hernandez Arroyo Sr. as he approached his ex-wife and son at 1:28 p.m.

Suddenly Arroyo began firing a MAK-90 semi-automatic rifle, killing Maribel Estrada, 41, and injuring his son David Arroyo Jr. on the courthouse steps.

Bystanders in the frame scurried for cover as Smith County Sheriff deputies Sherman Dollison, 28, and Andy Langston ran outside with weapons drawn.

Dollison exchanged gunfire with Arroyo and then was shot repeatedly as the window behind him exploded inside the courthouse.

An unidentified man crawled to the doors - then as Arroyo ran southward down the street firing his rifle - the man jumped through the shattered glass window and crawled to safety.

As Arroyo confronted Mark Wilson, a licensed concealed handgun carrier who intervened to save lives, other lawmen began firing at Arroyo from inside the courthouse.

SCSO Lt. Marlin Suell, 38, Tyler Police Det. Clay Perrett, 54, and another unidentified deputy began exchanging gunfire with the man.

Suell suddenly slumped to the floor as he was shot in the back of the neck and Perrett continued to fire until he fell backward, hit in the side of the face by gunfire.

As Arroyo began to drive away, Smith County District Attorney Investigator Jim Castle ran through the metal detectors, then dropped to the floor as Arroyo fired another burst at the courthouse.

Castle rolled to a sitting position and returned fire until Arroyo drove past. Then he and other officers, including the injured Lt. Suell, swarmed out of the courthouse still firing at Arroyo's pickup.

The entire video sequence lasted less than four minutes.

While the video showed Arroyo and officers exchanging gunfire, the 911 tape recordings revealed how people reacted during the shooting.

911 TAPE

Tyler police and fire dispatchers were swamped with callers reporting the shooting and could hear the gunfire as the callers screamed, cried and begged for help.

Jeramy Skaggs was one of the first callers, and the tension could be heard in his voice as he described what he was witnessing.

"He's in a maroon truck and he's about to shoot someone. He's killing somebody right now," He got in his truck and is driving away but he's still firing out the window," Skaggs said.

The dispatcher assured him help was on the way.

Another call that came in clearly depicted the terror as the caller and those around her watched Arroyo kill Wilson.

The call started with people screaming and the sound of gunfire.

"No. No. No. Oh my God. He's killing them," the caller stated.

More gunfire was followed by more screams.

"No, no, no. Don't leave - stay here. Do not move," she told someone. "We need help - a guy has been shot in the head," she screamed.

Another female caller from the Smith County Clerk's office begged for help.

"Um, please, there's a shooting downtown. Please send police and ambulance," a female caller advised. "There's three people that I see that are down."

The dispatcher replied, "We have four down and we have help on the way."

One of the most disturbing calls came from Kelly Harlan, County Court at Law 2 coordinator.

"We are getting shot at," she reported to the dispatcher.

"We are on the way. We are trying to get the guy," the dispatcher said.

"Our bailiff's (Dollison) been shot," she said.

"We've got ambulance and fire on the way. Where's he (Dollison) at now?" the dispatcher asked.

"He's outside the back," she said and began crying.

"The bailiff's outside the door?" the dispatcher asked.

"I think he went out. He's been shot. They're going to need an ambulance," she said, crying.

"We are on the way, OK?" the dispatcher assured the woman.

"OK," she replied and hung up.

Sirens began to fill the air as dispatchers tried to remain calm and take information from other callers as they reported what they saw.

The dispatchers didn't just take calls from citizens, but also from law enforcement officers enrobe to the shooting and in pursuit of Arroyo.

SMITH COUNTY RECORDING

The dispatcher at the Smith County 911 Center began dispatching all units to the courthouse at 1:28 p.m.

"Need all units to the courthouse to search at the courthouse. We have a man on the roof shooting with a rifle. All units run code. All units run code. We got reports he has a machine gun," she said, with urgency in her voice.

At 1:30 p.m., as deputies check in, the dispatcher ordered units to respond to the courthouse.

One deputy called in saying there were three game wardens inside Loop 323 who could help.

"I need all available units to start that way immediately," she said, again showing more urgency.

As the situation developed with more officers responding, the suspect fled the scene in his pickup still firing on officers.

"OK. He's going to be in a red truck going towards Spring (Avenue). We have officers in pursuit," she said.

At 1:33 p.m., additional officers joined the chase.

"Suspects name is David Arroyo driving a two-tone Chevrolet extended cab headed northbound. Tyler PD is en route," a deputy called in.

Another deputy called in saying shots were being fired.

"We are in pursuit going northbound on East Gentry at M.L. King. Shots fired, shots fired," the deputy yelled.

At 1:35 p.m. a deputy called into dispatch saying he was en route to East Texas Medical Center with Dollison, who was shot multiple times by Arroyo.

"Show me en route to Medical Center ER. One of our officers has been shot. I have Dr. Anderson in the car working on him at this time," he said.

One minute later the deputy driving to the hospital asked his fellow deputies if the man had been caught.

"Do y'all have the suspect," the deputy carrying Dollison to the hospital asked. "Do y'all have the suspect," he asked again.

"Suspect (Arroyo) is down," another deputy said.

"We got him; he's out. He's down," Lt. Larry Wiginton said.

Within eight minutes Arroyo had killed his ex-wife and Wilson, had shot his own son, Dollison, Perrett and Suell, and led police on a two-mile chase where he continued firing on officers before being killed.

Sheriff J.B. Smith said he believes all the officers involved showed great courage under fire and acted in a very timely manner.

"These guys went above the call of duty and were able to get the situation under control as quickly as possible," he said.

[LIKTOSHOOT]

Boy and I thought the CHL lacked training......that picture is even a worse example of what "NOT" to do. Good Grief!!!!


LTS

[navyvet]

I agree with a lot that has been said about center mass being thought to stop the threat, however good shot placement and type of carry load is very important. even if a guy is wearing body armor or is high on some substance a good 230 grain 45 center mass will be sufficient to knock him down however you much train to place a minimum of three shots center mass then comes cover and concealment.

[armedandsafe]

a good 230 grain 45 center mass will be sufficient to knock him down

No, it won't knock a person down. There is not enough energy in a slug to displace a human's mass far enough off center to cause unbalancing. The psychological shock of the impact can cause a person to unbalance, but the energy transfer of bullet to body is not sufficient in itself to tip a person over.

Pops

[navyvet]

you are taking the term knock down literally, knock down in this vernacular means take him out of the fight long enough to find cover and concealment.