Unknown 12 gauge - The Firearms Forum

jrswaney01 · 07-18-2011, 09:03 PM

I have received a gun with minimal markings. It is a 12 CA choke shotgun. there is what I believe to be a serial number on it. serial number L459L7. Can somebody help me identify the maker and what it might be worth. The gun is in a good overall condition. Thanks for the help!

Alpo · 07-18-2011, 10:08 PM

"A 12 gauge shotgun. What is it?"

Need a little bit more information. Pictures would be REAL helpful. There's a whole lot of 12 gauge shotgun manufacturers out there.

BETH · 07-18-2011, 10:20 PM

welcome to the forum post pictures please

jrswaney01 · 07-20-2011, 06:23 AM

The butt plate has H&R Arms Co. on it. Spoke with a Remington customer service rep and she told me that the "L" in the "serial number" may stand for the 1951 model year. The barrel length is 31 7/8". I'm still trying to figure out the model.

It is a single shot, breach w/lever on top to open the breach. It has a lever on the left side of the gun that you push down to cock the trigger.

It has been suggested to me that it is a Trap gun or a "Long Tom"

I'll try to get photos posted later today.

hrf · 07-20-2011, 06:49 AM

Welcome to the forum.

If the butt plate is marked H&R Arms and is the right one for the gun, it was made by Harrington & Richardson, who had no connection to Remington.

Alpo · 07-20-2011, 07:07 AM

hrf, within the last few years, Marlin bought H&R, and then Remington bought Marlin.

hrf · 07-20-2011, 07:10 AM

But I doubt that Marlin/Remington retained H&R buttplates?

Do they have H&R records?

Jim K · 07-20-2011, 08:15 AM

AFAIK, while they are owned by Remington (which itself is owned by some conglomerate), Marlin and New England Firearms (the successor to H&R) retained their corporate identities and business records.

Jim

Jim Hauff · 07-20-2011, 10:56 AM

Remington/Marlin/H&R 1871 is a branch of "Cerebus Holdings". The H&R records of the original company up to Feb of 1986 were turned over to the BATF. NEF is no longer used on firearms - since c. 2000 all the single barrel long guns will be marked as H&R 1871 LLC or some variation of same.
A single barrel H&R made in 1951 would be some variation of the Model 48 Topper, have a snap off-on handguard for dis- and assembly and a "beaver tail" lever behind the hammer to break the action. As far as I know, H&R never made a PRODUCTION model with a lever on the left side of the receiver used to cock the hammer???????
The butt plate at that time would be of black hard rubber and look like the pic. attached. It could have been installed to any similarly stocked shotgun.
The left side "cocking" lever is a "problem" in IDing this piece - we need to see some pics of the gun, especially the left side receiver and one of the top of the barrel showing stampings, hammer and action break lever.
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jrswaney01 · 07-20-2011, 12:58 PM

[IMG]0719111143-1[/IMG]

jrswaney01 · 07-20-2011, 01:36 PM

I hope this helps

jrswaney01 · 07-20-2011, 01:44 PM

jrswaney01 · 07-20-2011, 01:50 PM

jrswaney01 · 07-20-2011, 01:53 PM

jrswaney01 · 07-20-2011, 01:59 PM

jrswaney01 · 07-20-2011, 02:31 PM

jrswaney01 · 07-20-2011, 02:32 PM

jrswaney01 · 07-20-2011, 02:34 PM

jrswaney01 · 07-20-2011, 02:35 PM

Jim Hauff · 07-20-2011, 03:42 PM

From the pics - that looks to be a "franken-gun" - looks like it's made up of parts from a number of manufacturers' firearms. As far as I can tell - the only part made by H&R is the butt plate. Although the barrel resembles an H&R make, I would need a closer examination of the barrel "lump". That left side lever with side plate is totally unknown to me - it apparently was installed to cock the striker for firing, since there is no exposed hammer. The removable hinge pin looks like it came from an old H&A shotgun. H&R used something similar on their Model 1909 but it was differently shaped at the gripping part. The stock furniture fits poorly on the receiver tang and looks much too modern for the rest of the gun. In other words ???????

hrf · 07-20-2011, 04:12 PM

Oddly enough, it is a Remington! The buttstock and forend are not original, but it's shown in Flayderman's and listed as the "Remington Single Barrel Model 1893 & Model 9, made 1893-1910, value in Very Good condition $150. But the example here with wrong wood and refinished maybe $50-$75 to someone who collects oddball old singles? Chances are, the Remington name got polished off the barrel when refinished.

Jim Hauff · 07-20-2011, 04:44 PM

SON OF A B!TCH!

A Remington, you say!

Who made the furniture?

It's not H&R for sure.

LOL
Thanks hrf. Good catch.

hrf · 07-20-2011, 05:05 PM

Here's what the gun looked like with original wood, from the 1899 Sears & Roebuck fall catalog:

Jim Hauff · 07-20-2011, 05:40 PM

I, only a couple days ago, finished reading a history of Remington Firearms. It followed the career of Eliphalet Remington II from 1816 through all the historical stuff up to the modern days. BUT, I do NOT remember seeing an example or information on this particular style of shotgun. Nice find, again, hrf - memory banks have been charged with that left side cocking lever....thanks.

jrswaney01 · 07-21-2011, 04:00 AM

Thanks for the help. I would have never been able to find out this information without the forum.

07-18-2011, 09:03 PM	#1
jrswaney01 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: NW Ohio Posts: 14	Unknown 12 gauge I have received a gun with minimal markings. It is a 12 CA choke shotgun. there is what I believe to be a serial number on it. serial number L459L7. Can somebody help me identify the maker and what it might be worth. The gun is in a good overall condition. Thanks for the help! -->

07-18-2011, 10:08 PM	#2
Alpo Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: NW Florida Posts: 8,652	Re: Unknown 12 gauge "A 12 gauge shotgun. What is it?" Need a little bit more information. Pictures would be REAL helpful. There's a whole lot of 12 gauge shotgun manufacturers out there. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with catsup - George of Lod, Year of Our Lord 297 I always take precautions. Beware the Evil Bullet Fairies.

07-18-2011, 10:20 PM	#3
BETH Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: naugatuck,Ct. Contributor Posts: 6,668	Re: Unknown 12 gauge welcome to the forum post pictures please

07-20-2011, 06:23 AM	#4
jrswaney01 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: NW Ohio Posts: 14	Re: Unknown 12 gauge The butt plate has H&R Arms Co. on it. Spoke with a Remington customer service rep and she told me that the "L" in the "serial number" may stand for the 1951 model year. The barrel length is 31 7/8". I'm still trying to figure out the model. It is a single shot, breach w/lever on top to open the breach. It has a lever on the left side of the gun that you push down to cock the trigger. It has been suggested to me that it is a Trap gun or a "Long Tom" I'll try to get photos posted later today.

07-20-2011, 06:49 AM	#5
hrf Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 2,277	Re: Unknown 12 gauge Welcome to the forum. If the butt plate is marked H&R Arms and is the right one for the gun, it was made by Harrington & Richardson, who had no connection to Remington. Last edited by hrf; 07-20-2011 at 07:12 AM..

07-20-2011, 07:07 AM	#6
Alpo Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: NW Florida Posts: 8,652	Re: Unknown 12 gauge hrf, within the last few years, Marlin bought H&R, and then Remington bought Marlin. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with catsup - George of Lod, Year of Our Lord 297 I always take precautions. Beware the Evil Bullet Fairies.

07-20-2011, 07:10 AM	#7
hrf Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 2,277	Re: Unknown 12 gauge But I doubt that Marlin/Remington retained H&R buttplates? Do they have H&R records? Last edited by hrf; 07-20-2011 at 07:33 AM.. Reason: added question

07-20-2011, 08:15 AM	#8
Jim K Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 6,408	Re: Unknown 12 gauge AFAIK, while they are owned by Remington (which itself is owned by some conglomerate), Marlin and New England Firearms (the successor to H&R) retained their corporate identities and business records. Jim

07-20-2011, 10:56 AM	#9
Jim Hauff Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Lehigh Valley, PA Posts: 2,980	Re: Unknown 12 gauge Remington/Marlin/H&R 1871 is a branch of "Cerebus Holdings". The H&R records of the original company up to Feb of 1986 were turned over to the BATF. NEF is no longer used on firearms - since c. 2000 all the single barrel long guns will be marked as H&R 1871 LLC or some variation of same. A single barrel H&R made in 1951 would be some variation of the Model 48 Topper, have a snap off-on handguard for dis- and assembly and a "beaver tail" lever behind the hammer to break the action. As far as I know, H&R never made a PRODUCTION model with a lever on the left side of the receiver used to cock the hammer??????? The butt plate at that time would be of black hard rubber and look like the pic. attached. It could have been installed to any similarly stocked shotgun. The left side "cocking" lever is a "problem" in IDing this piece - we need to see some pics of the gun, especially the left side receiver and one of the top of the barrel showing stampings, hammer and action break lever. __________________ Jim Hauff ~ H&R Collector In Memory of Bill Goforth and Jim Ritchie

07-20-2011, 12:58 PM	#10
jrswaney01 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: NW Ohio Posts: 14	Re: Unknown 12 gauge [IMG]0719111143-1[/IMG]

07-20-2011, 01:36 PM	#11
jrswaney01 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: NW Ohio Posts: 14	Re: Unknown 12 gauge I hope this helps

07-20-2011, 01:44 PM	#12
jrswaney01 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: NW Ohio Posts: 14	Re: Unknown 12 gauge

07-20-2011, 01:50 PM	#13
jrswaney01 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: NW Ohio Posts: 14	Re: Unknown 12 gauge

07-20-2011, 01:53 PM	#14
jrswaney01 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: NW Ohio Posts: 14	Re: Unknown 12 gauge

07-20-2011, 01:59 PM	#15
jrswaney01 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: NW Ohio Posts: 14	Re: Unknown 12 gauge

07-20-2011, 02:31 PM	#16
jrswaney01 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: NW Ohio Posts: 14	Re: Unknown 12 gauge

07-20-2011, 02:32 PM	#17
jrswaney01 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: NW Ohio Posts: 14	Re: Unknown 12 gauge

07-20-2011, 02:34 PM	#18
jrswaney01 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: NW Ohio Posts: 14	Re: Unknown 12 gauge

07-20-2011, 02:35 PM	#19
jrswaney01 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: NW Ohio Posts: 14	Re: Unknown 12 gauge

07-20-2011, 03:42 PM	#20
Jim Hauff Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Lehigh Valley, PA Posts: 2,980	Re: Unknown 12 gauge From the pics - that looks to be a "franken-gun" - looks like it's made up of parts from a number of manufacturers' firearms. As far as I can tell - the only part made by H&R is the butt plate. Although the barrel resembles an H&R make, I would need a closer examination of the barrel "lump". That left side lever with side plate is totally unknown to me - it apparently was installed to cock the striker for firing, since there is no exposed hammer. The removable hinge pin looks like it came from an old H&A shotgun. H&R used something similar on their Model 1909 but it was differently shaped at the gripping part. The stock furniture fits poorly on the receiver tang and looks much too modern for the rest of the gun. In other words ??????? __________________ Jim Hauff ~ H&R Collector In Memory of Bill Goforth and Jim Ritchie

07-20-2011, 04:12 PM	#21
hrf Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 2,277	Re: Unknown 12 gauge Oddly enough, it is a Remington! The buttstock and forend are not original, but it's shown in Flayderman's and listed as the "Remington Single Barrel Model 1893 & Model 9, made 1893-1910, value in Very Good condition $150. But the example here with wrong wood and refinished maybe $50-$75 to someone who collects oddball old singles? Chances are, the Remington name got polished off the barrel when refinished. Last edited by hrf; 07-20-2011 at 04:17 PM..

07-20-2011, 04:44 PM	#22
Jim Hauff Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Lehigh Valley, PA Posts: 2,980	Re: Unknown 12 gauge SON OF A B!TCH! A Remington, you say! Who made the furniture? It's not H&R for sure. LOL Thanks hrf. Good catch. __________________ Jim Hauff ~ H&R Collector In Memory of Bill Goforth and Jim Ritchie

07-20-2011, 05:05 PM	#23
hrf Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 2,277	Re: Unknown 12 gauge Here's what the gun looked like with original wood, from the 1899 Sears & Roebuck fall catalog: Attached Images

07-20-2011, 05:40 PM	#24
Jim Hauff Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Lehigh Valley, PA Posts: 2,980	Re: Unknown 12 gauge I, only a couple days ago, finished reading a history of Remington Firearms. It followed the career of Eliphalet Remington II from 1816 through all the historical stuff up to the modern days. BUT, I do NOT remember seeing an example or information on this particular style of shotgun. Nice find, again, hrf - memory banks have been charged with that left side cocking lever....thanks. __________________ Jim Hauff ~ H&R Collector In Memory of Bill Goforth and Jim Ritchie

07-21-2011, 04:00 AM	#25
jrswaney01 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: NW Ohio Posts: 14	Re: Unknown 12 gauge Thanks for the help. I would have never been able to find out this information without the forum.