Attraction to War - Page 2 - The Firearms Forum

polishshooter · 05-04-2006, 10:13 PM

And getting back to one of the questions and the topic...

Yes there WERE Female "snayperskayas" in the Soviet Army, as well as some female Soviet pilots. Merrindale in "Ivan's War" tells of one famous female ace who actually flew in a "mixed" guards squadron until she was killed. Many woman fought as normal grunts too at Stalingrad and Leningrad, and of course in the partisans.

However, MUCH of the use of females in combat after Kursk was curtailed, and towards the end most Soviet women who were in the Army, while probably at the front and under fire more than WACs and Waves, did essentially the same function, clerks, supplies, nurses, orderlies, support..."free a man to fight" even though the propagandists still spread the stories of the "women fighters of Communism" right to the end of the war.

They DID have a couple of squadrons of PO-2 biplane light bombers that flew night interdiction missions over German lines, called the "NIght Witches," ('Night Whores" by the Germans) weho would loter around and drop light bombs just to affect sleep, who got good at cutting engines and gliding over targets silently, dropping a couple of small bombs, and restarting and flying off and coming back to do it again, they were pretty famous and got a "unit citation" from Stalin.

But interestingly, the author spends a lot of time trying to figure out WHY the "Ivans" fought...so well and so hard despite the abuse and treatment by the NKVD and Stalin. She cites the similarities, but mostly the DIFFERENCES of all the studies done about combat and motivation in the West.

"Patriotic fever, God and Country" gets the recruits, just like in any army, but at least in the west, it quickly fades, and usually gets replaced by "duty," which then devolves into simply "get the job done to go home" and survival, sometimes hatred and revenge, but usually later it evoles into a very simple intense hope not to let your "brother's" down. But in the West, there was never really a doubt that you WERE fighting for YOUR way of life, which everyone KNEW was worth defending...

While she found similarities in the Russian Army, the patriotic fervor, then the "duty," then the "comrades," BUT there were so many OTHER factors involved...the hatred for STALIN due to collectivization, the deportation of the kulaks, ALL the shortages, and especially AFTER crossing the border and the troops seeing the WEALTH of capitalism and being able to see the miserableness of their lives, their was at the same time the troops started seeing the WORSE fighting, the survivors started to "buy into" the propaganda, and the speeches of the politruks, and some started to WORSHIP Brother Stalin, many who had never showed an interest, or even belittled it earlier, became "converts" and voluntarily joined the Communist party, listened to and started buying into the calls for "Revenge," and "Punishment" from Stalin that they had to deliver to the Germans so they would NEVER fight a war again (MAYBE they succeeded??)

It's kind of interesting, how the veterans who DID live, even though they KNEW the government was "lying" in it's accounts of the war, AFTER the war became GREAT Communists, and the best SUPPORTERS of "the system," almost so psychologically they could be part of the "fiction," and the "Myths" and avoid dealing with the "realities." And since NO ONE in Russia understood "psychology," there wasn't even a WORD for "Shell Shock" or "Battle fatigue" in Russian, there were very FEW "post traumatic stress cases" in the USSR, (although MANY more suicides and "self-inflicted" wounds than in the West, even at the front!) even though they saw the MOST and WORST fighting. And ALWAYS in the background was the ALTERNATIVE which was Soviet "Mental Hospitals," in the 50s, which were just different "gulags."

Russian "civilian" psychiatry and psychology is still a new art, and is now deeply involved in Western ideas, so the author thinks there will be a LOT of new material and ideas about "Why men fight" comparing notes from both sides, untainted by Soviet "Myth."

Pistolenschutze · 05-05-2006, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firebird

Pistol--what about females who want more "sexual access" than males????

Well, Firebird, I could say "send 'em to southeastern Colorado," but that might be construed as tacky.

Seriously, my comment on the rape thing was not intended to apply to you. Your posts clearly show where you stand on that issue. As for the other, I was talking in general terms, not specific ones. I do think there is a genetic basis to the issue of aggresiveness, male vis-a-vis female. Higher brain function and societal mores can, and usually do control it, but it is still there.

firebird · 05-05-2006, 07:04 AM

LOL!

Well, it's nice to know we might be wanted somewhere!

I never took anything as applied to me; I appreicate your thoughtfulness.

And I agree with you...unlike that whack-job who thinks women don't "mark their territory"!! ROFLMAO!!! JUST KIDDING!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pistolenschutze

Well, Firebird, I could say "send 'em to southeastern Colorado," but that might be construed as tacky.

Seriously, my comment on the rape thing was not intended to apply to you. Your posts clearly show where you stand on that issue. As for the other, I was talking in general terms, not specific ones. I do think there is a genetic basis to the issue of aggresiveness, male vis-a-vis female. Higher brain function and societal mores can, and usually do control it, but it is still there.

Bernie109 · 05-06-2006, 09:24 PM

My atttaction to weapons and tactics is simply based on acceptance.
I accept the fact that there are bad people out there and choose to be ready, Just like I accept that fires can start and have a fire extinguisher.
I accept the fact that people can be injured and have a first aid kit.

There have been many who claim to have an alternative to violence but when they are portrayed in the movies, it is always some pacifist talking a bad guy down. Never works in real life. Many like to point to Gahndi. For one, there was armed resistence and Gahndi simply added large scale civil disobedience to the armed conflict. Second, the british Empire was in retreat and no longer had the stomach to do what was needed to hold on to India.
I would have loved to have seen what would have happened if Gahndi tried what did di to the British on Stalin or Mao.

Pistolenschutze · 05-07-2006, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bernie109

I would have loved to have seen what would have happened if Gahndi tried what he did to the British on Stalin or Mao.

Or on Hitler's Wehrmacht, Bernie.

You make a very valid point, I think. Too many of the liberal persuasion do not see the logical fallacy inherent in their disdain of weapons. It is people who kill other people, not the weapon. Like you, I consider a firearm in much the same way I do an insurance policy. I hope it is never needed, but if it is, it is is the only thing that can save your life.

05-04-2006, 10:13 PM	#26
polishshooter Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Indiana Contributor Posts: 7,860	Re: Attraction to War And getting back to one of the questions and the topic... Yes there WERE Female "snayperskayas" in the Soviet Army, as well as some female Soviet pilots. Merrindale in "Ivan's War" tells of one famous female ace who actually flew in a "mixed" guards squadron until she was killed. Many woman fought as normal grunts too at Stalingrad and Leningrad, and of course in the partisans. However, MUCH of the use of females in combat after Kursk was curtailed, and towards the end most Soviet women who were in the Army, while probably at the front and under fire more than WACs and Waves, did essentially the same function, clerks, supplies, nurses, orderlies, support..."free a man to fight" even though the propagandists still spread the stories of the "women fighters of Communism" right to the end of the war. They DID have a couple of squadrons of PO-2 biplane light bombers that flew night interdiction missions over German lines, called the "NIght Witches," ('Night Whores" by the Germans) weho would loter around and drop light bombs just to affect sleep, who got good at cutting engines and gliding over targets silently, dropping a couple of small bombs, and restarting and flying off and coming back to do it again, they were pretty famous and got a "unit citation" from Stalin. But interestingly, the author spends a lot of time trying to figure out WHY the "Ivans" fought...so well and so hard despite the abuse and treatment by the NKVD and Stalin. She cites the similarities, but mostly the DIFFERENCES of all the studies done about combat and motivation in the West. "Patriotic fever, God and Country" gets the recruits, just like in any army, but at least in the west, it quickly fades, and usually gets replaced by "duty," which then devolves into simply "get the job done to go home" and survival, sometimes hatred and revenge, but usually later it evoles into a very simple intense hope not to let your "brother's" down. But in the West, there was never really a doubt that you WERE fighting for YOUR way of life, which everyone KNEW was worth defending... While she found similarities in the Russian Army, the patriotic fervor, then the "duty," then the "comrades," BUT there were so many OTHER factors involved...the hatred for STALIN due to collectivization, the deportation of the kulaks, ALL the shortages, and especially AFTER crossing the border and the troops seeing the WEALTH of capitalism and being able to see the miserableness of their lives, their was at the same time the troops started seeing the WORSE fighting, the survivors started to "buy into" the propaganda, and the speeches of the politruks, and some started to WORSHIP Brother Stalin, many who had never showed an interest, or even belittled it earlier, became "converts" and voluntarily joined the Communist party, listened to and started buying into the calls for "Revenge," and "Punishment" from Stalin that they had to deliver to the Germans so they would NEVER fight a war again (MAYBE they succeeded??) It's kind of interesting, how the veterans who DID live, even though they KNEW the government was "lying" in it's accounts of the war, AFTER the war became GREAT Communists, and the best SUPPORTERS of "the system," almost so psychologically they could be part of the "fiction," and the "Myths" and avoid dealing with the "realities." And since NO ONE in Russia understood "psychology," there wasn't even a WORD for "Shell Shock" or "Battle fatigue" in Russian, there were very FEW "post traumatic stress cases" in the USSR, (although MANY more suicides and "self-inflicted" wounds than in the West, even at the front!) even though they saw the MOST and WORST fighting. And ALWAYS in the background was the ALTERNATIVE which was Soviet "Mental Hospitals," in the 50s, which were just different "gulags." Russian "civilian" psychiatry and psychology is still a new art, and is now deeply involved in Western ideas, so the author thinks there will be a LOT of new material and ideas about "Why men fight" comparing notes from both sides, untainted by Soviet "Myth." __________________ The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living.

05-06-2006, 09:24 PM	#29
Bernie109 Former Guest Join Date: May 2006 Location: Central CA Posts: 274	Re: Attraction to War My atttaction to weapons and tactics is simply based on acceptance. I accept the fact that there are bad people out there and choose to be ready, Just like I accept that fires can start and have a fire extinguisher. I accept the fact that people can be injured and have a first aid kit. There have been many who claim to have an alternative to violence but when they are portrayed in the movies, it is always some pacifist talking a bad guy down. Never works in real life. Many like to point to Gahndi. For one, there was armed resistence and Gahndi simply added large scale civil disobedience to the armed conflict. Second, the british Empire was in retreat and no longer had the stomach to do what was needed to hold on to India. I would have loved to have seen what would have happened if Gahndi tried what did di to the British on Stalin or Mao.