Llama .38 Super auto pistol - The Firearms Forum

jwchessell · 11-03-2005, 05:41 PM

OK, here's another one. A Llama "Especial" .38 Super automatic pistol with vent rib, serial # 455955. This is the one that appears to be a Colt Govt-model semi-auto pistol, except for the vent rib. I purchased this gun new in about 1970, and gave it to my stepfather, who has since passed away. As far as I know, it's unfired. I base that on the fact the ammo boxes are still full, the cleaning kit I gave him at the same time is unused, and the gun bears no marks of having been fired. Bluing is 99% or more intact. Checkered grips are sharp to the touch and unmarked, with original finish. Gun has two original magazines. I remember reading somewhere many years ago that this gun would fire both 9mm Luger and .38 Super, but it's clearly marked " CAL .38 Super Automatic." No box or paperwork with this one. What do you fellows think it's worth today?

Xracer · 11-03-2005, 10:27 PM

Sounds like a Model VIII, and has a Blue Book value of:

100% - $305
98% - $255
95% - $220

However, you might have a bit of trouble getting that much for it. Llamas have a spotty reputation.

berto64 · 11-07-2005, 12:16 AM

The 38 super is the same size as the 9MM Largo round (not Luger) which is 9x23 mm but exerts much higher pressures than the 9x23.

I own several Spanish pistols in 9mm Largo but cannot shoot 38 Super in them because they are too powerful for the chambers.
And 9mmLargo is getting harder to find.

chiefchuck · 01-20-2009, 10:59 PM

I have a Llama Extra. From what little info I have been able to find it was made in 1939/40. On the left side of the slide it says cal 9mm 38 Llama. On the right side it says Llama "EXTRA". It came with a box of new .38 super and two mags. I think it is chambered for 9mm Largo? It has the Browning type barrel link system and looks just like my 1911A1 Remington except the barrel sticks out of the bushing about an eighth inch. Do I dare try .38 super in it?. Chiefchuck

Contenderizer · 01-22-2009, 03:16 PM

According to "Cartridges of The Wold", 10th Edition:

"38 Super Automatic - Introduced by Colt in 1929 as an improved version of the older 38 Auto, the Super Auto is identical to the original cartridge except that it uses a more powerful loading. This is a fine high-speed sporting cartridge for the improved Government Model automatic pistol, but should not be used in older Colt pocket models. The Thompson submachine gun was once available in 38 Super chambering. In Spain, Llama has made pistols for it. It is not popular in Europe, but very popular in Canada, Mexico and South America where pistols in military chamberings have been prohibited."

Another reference I have indicates that Llama made a model VIII-C in 38 Super. It is based upon the Colt 1911 and intended for import to the USA. The photo does not show a vented rib, however. But, it also does not list all of Llama's guns.

Chiefchuck: If you gun was manufactured in 1939/40, it would seem safe to use the 38 Super in it as the original 38 Auto (a/k/a 38 Colt Automatic, 38 ACP) was discontinued some 10 years prior, BUT, I would do my homework first!

FYI: Here in the US we tend to mispronounce Llama. It is "Li-Jama" which is Spanish for "flame."

chiefchuck · 01-25-2009, 09:55 PM

Contenderizer: Thank you for the reply. My gun does not have a rib on the slide and has the same numbers on the inside of it as do the barrel and bushing, 817. I think these numbers were assembly matching numbers so it must be original. This gun won't be used for anything serious so I think I'll use the 9mm Largo round it was made for. Oh, one last note. I don't see any of the rough machining and sharp edges that I have read other people complaining about. Chiefchuck

Bill DeShivs · 01-26-2009, 12:26 AM

Actually, it's pronounced "Yama."

oscarmayer · 01-26-2009, 07:40 AM

xracer is correct about the spotty rep llamas have. but for some odd reason 38 supers are sought after. i would strongly suggest checking out a few auction sites and see what they have been selling for. this are real world prices and sometimes they eary from the " book value "

yukon1984 · 06-11-2009, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwchessell

OK, here's another one. A Llama "Especial" .38 Super automatic pistol with vent rib, serial # 455955. This is the one that appears to be a Colt Govt-model semi-auto pistol, except for the vent rib. I purchased this gun new in about 1970, and gave it to my stepfather, who has since passed away. As far as I know, it's unfired. I base that on the fact the ammo boxes are still full, the cleaning kit I gave him at the same time is unused, and the gun bears no marks of having been fired. Bluing is 99% or more intact. Checkered grips are sharp to the touch and unmarked, with original finish. Gun has two original magazines. I remember reading somewhere many years ago that this gun would fire both 9mm Luger and .38 Super, but it's clearly marked " CAL .38 Super Automatic." No box or paperwork with this one. What do you fellows think it's worth today?

yukon1984 · 06-11-2009, 06:19 PM

Hi, I came across your posting about the llama 38 super. I have an int. in it if you are wanating to part with it. You can e-mail me and let me know. thanks scott

AR1911 · 06-12-2009, 10:07 PM

ChiefChuck, Llamas made in the 1930s and 1940s were very fine weapons. I have 4 .380s from the 1940s that I would not part with.

marine66nam · 10-23-2010, 08:18 PM

Concerning the "Llama Extra" caliber 9mm 38, I have one that I bought very used, but in fine mechanical condition at a hardware store in El Monte, Calif. in Dec. 65, try that now! I had my new wife mail it to me in Nam in boxes of cookies in pieces and carried it from Jan. 66 to Oct. 66 when I was med-evacked out. They took the pistol off of me and it sat in a battalion armorers box with 1911's for six months until a Senator from Texas made them look for it, then it was mailed to me by the Marine Corps.
Sorry to be so long winded but I wanted to give some background.
My Llama is an exact copy of a 19llA1 except for the cuts for the slide and the barrel lugs.
I carried a 1911 at the same time as I carried my Llama and the parts exchanged without fitting, I used 1911 mags by simply bending the lips in a little. I took a cotton sack full of 9mm Luger off a Charlie and it fired it without a hickup. This was after I ran out of the 38 Super my wife sent with the pistol.
Other than the 9mm I've fired nothing but 38 super +P in it (several boxes), I've had it refinshed and still carry it regularly, along with my Colt Comm., Remington 1911, and a Para-Ordnance that I carried on duty for 15 years.
My Llama does not have a rib and does not have the toe on the lower front of the frame at the mag well.
I understand that others may have had a bad experience with their Llama but I have trusted my life to mine, I don't know how old it is but it was well used it 1965.

AR1911 · 10-24-2010, 08:16 AM

Marine66, I'd sure like to see some pics of your Llama. I would bet money it was made in the 1940s. You can check the date code easily

marine66nam · 10-24-2010, 06:43 PM

AR1911, thanks for reply. Yeah '40s or 50s sounds right, like I said it was well used when I got it just before Christmas in '65, I shipped out from Long Beach Jan. 11, '66.
I've yet to find it listed in or a photo of it in any book, and I've got a few books.
I'll try to get someone to show me how to upload a photo of it.

marine66nam · 10-24-2010, 06:55 PM

AR1911
How do you check the date code?

Jim K · 10-24-2010, 08:12 PM

The 9mm Largo is not quite the same as the .38 Super since the latter is semi-rimmed, but those guns will fire either cartridge since they also have a shoulder in the chamber to accommodate the 9mm Largo and a recess at the rear of the barrel to allow use of the .38 Super.

Llamas were never up to the standards of Colt, but that gun has a locked breech and is perfectly safe with .38 Super. Do not fire either .38 Super or 9mm Largo in old "double link" Colt pistols.

(Some pistols chambered for 9mm Largo or .38 Super will fire some 9mm Luger or other ammunition, but it is not the right ammunition and may cause problems.)

Jim

AR1911 · 10-24-2010, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marine66nam

AR1911
How do you check the date code?

Right here:

http://www.star-firearms.com/firearms/proof.shtml

Date codes should be on the left side above the trigger guard

AR1911 · 10-24-2010, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim K

Llamas were never up to the standards of Colt, but that gun has a locked breech and is perfectly safe with .38 Super. Do not fire either .38 Super or 9mm Largo in old "double link" Colt pistols.

Jim, don't be so sure about the quality vs the Colt of the same era
Those llamas pre-1950 were jewels of workmanship, closely fitted and deeply blued. At the same time Colt was pumping out 1911s in 6-digit numbers, to wartime production specs.
I have a couple of Llama 380s made in that period that are nicer guns than the later Colt 380s. They are also truer to the 1911 design, in scale and in lockwork.
Granted, by 1960 at least llamas were a far cry from the Colt. But find an early Llama of any size and look at it closely.

Jim K · 10-24-2010, 09:26 PM

Yes, I have some Llamas of that general era and true, they are well made. But the parts are not as well made as Colt parts and show signs of hand fitting. I really don't think it is fair to compare pistols produced in peacetime with military contract guns mass produced during a war. I have Colts (Government Models and others) made in the 1920's and 1930's and they are certainly not inferior to any Spanish gun, and are made of better materals. Further, the myth that hand fitting is better in some way is simply that, a myth. Hand fitting means that rhe maker did not have access to quality machinery, or couldn't keep good quality control, neither of which should be seen as positive.

Jim

marine66nam · 11-15-2010, 05:33 PM

Since my last posting I have rebuilt two Colt Commanders, they had been used in 22 conversions and a widebody build for my brother, while I was doing this I disassembled my Llama Extra and tried parts as I worked. I also tried parts in my Remington-rand. Other than slide to frame and grips the only parts that wouldn't work without fitting was the thumb safety (no surprise), the plunger housing (screws), and the Llama ejector is part of the frame. The bbl is 5 1/2" long. It has a grip safety and no rib on the bbl.
My pistol has no stamping over the trigger guard. The ser.# is 276XX.
The only stamping other than on the slide are assembly #57 inside the slide and under the left grip. The bbl is stamped 724 on the bottom.
As stated before in this thread, the Largo/Bayard headspaces on the case mouth, the Super on the rim cut in the barrel hood. The Largo case is 1/100th inch longer and slightly tapered.
It is very well fitted and shows no rough machining marks.

TexasShooter1 · 04-09-2012, 10:49 AM

Can you tell me anything about a Llama chrome Model 1911 9mm/.38 auto, serial # 459xxx. I am guessing manufacture date around 1967. Is .38 acp ammo around to purchase these days? Also what about extra mags? Any info. is helpful. Thanks.

AR1911 · 04-09-2012, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TexasShooter1

Can you tell me anything about a Llama chrome Model 1911 9mm/.38 auto, serial # 459xxx. I am guessing manufacture date around 1967. Is .38 acp ammo around to purchase these days? Also what about extra mags? Any info. is helpful. Thanks.

No need to guess about the date. There is a link a few messages up that will show you how to determine year of manufacture for any Spanish pistol.

Hammerslagger · 04-09-2012, 01:25 PM

Llama likely went out of business in 2005. Parts can be hard to find for many models. Some of their products looked well made; but such appearances were often deceiving as compared to another Spanish makers like Star and Astra, and were typically well below the quality control and durability performances of major U S makers like Colt, Ruger, and S&W.

The exact year of manufacture can be found at this link for most Spanish firearms as the date codes were government mandated along with proof marks.

http://star-firearms.com/firearms/proof.shtml

If your gun was made in 1967 there will be a M2 stamped on the frame near the proof marks. Around the year 2000 Spanish marking standards seemed to have changed; and the year of production is often obviously included the serial number on any Spanish gun.

The thread remark on 04/09/12 about "9mm/.38 Auto" raises a potential safety concern for those without a great deal of firearms/ammo expertise. Here in the USA 9mm is usually understood to mean the 9X19 mm cartridge developed for use in the German Luger or Parabellum pistol in 1902 and adopted by the German military in 1908. It is often appended by names like "Luger", "Parabellum", "Para" and "NATO". There are numerous other 9mm cartridges in the European cartridge designation system which states nominal bullet diameter and cartridge case length, sometimes with suffix modifiers.

The .38 Auto and .38 Super are also nominal 9 mm cartridges, BUT THEY ARE NOT THE SAME CARTRIDGE, AND NEITHER IS THE SAME AS (or interchangeable with) THE 9X19 CARTRIDGE. Your Llama (as described) seems to be marked and designed for the USA .38 Auto cartridge which has the exact same dimensions as the much more powerful and higher pressure .38 Super cartridge! {Nominal 26,000 PSI verses 36,000 PSI} it is usually deemed not safe to shoot .38 Super in a pistol marked for .38 Auto. {.38 Auto is basically an obsolete loading; and .38 Auto ammo is often not easily found and expensive when you find it.}

The 9x19 cartridge will likely load into your Llama pistol and fire and may even cycle and reload without jamming problems until the pistol likely breaks from using the wrong ammo. IT IS NOT DEEMED A SAFE PRACTICE TO DO SO! The chamber in a .38 Auto or Super pistol is nominal 23 mm long verses 19 mm long for the 9 Luger cartridge. The firing pin is able to reliably strike the primer shooting 9x19 in some loose chambered Spanish 9 X23 mm pistols, only because the extractor hold the cartridge against the breech face.

Be safe, not sorry.

Jim K · 04-09-2012, 02:48 PM

The 9mm Largo is a straight-case cartridge, while the 9mm Luger is tapered. The result is that in some tight 9mm Largo chambers, some 9mm Luger rounds will wedge in and fire OK, others will be held by the extractor. While neither condition is ideal, they are not unsafe and the pistol will not "break" from such firing.

Jim

TexasShooter1 · 04-09-2012, 05:11 PM

Thanks for the heads-up; I know it is not a 9x19 and would be sure to NOT shoot Supers out of it. It belonged to my uncle who served at Pearl Harbor on december 7 & later Guadalcanal and other points in the South Pacific theatre. I have a full box of the .38 ACP ammo he had with it but notice, as you said, it is very hard to find more. I may re-do it for sentimental purposes, as the chrome has rust spots on it now, but would like to put some rounds through it one of these days.

11-03-2005, 05:41 PM	#1
jwchessell Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 31	Llama .38 Super auto pistol OK, here's another one. A Llama "Especial" .38 Super automatic pistol with vent rib, serial # 455955. This is the one that appears to be a Colt Govt-model semi-auto pistol, except for the vent rib. I purchased this gun new in about 1970, and gave it to my stepfather, who has since passed away. As far as I know, it's unfired. I base that on the fact the ammo boxes are still full, the cleaning kit I gave him at the same time is unused, and the gun bears no marks of having been fired. Bluing is 99% or more intact. Checkered grips are sharp to the touch and unmarked, with original finish. Gun has two original magazines. I remember reading somewhere many years ago that this gun would fire both 9mm Luger and .38 Super, but it's clearly marked " CAL .38 Super Automatic." No box or paperwork with this one. What do you fellows think it's worth today? -->

11-03-2005, 10:27 PM	#2
Xracer TFF Admin Staff Mediator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Minn-eeee-sota, ya, sure, you bet! Posts: 9,144	Re: Llama .38 Super auto pistol Sounds like a Model VIII, and has a Blue Book value of: 100% - $305 98% - $255 95% - $220 However, you might have a bit of trouble getting that much for it. Llamas have a spotty reputation.

11-07-2005, 12:16 AM	#3
berto64 VMBB Admin Staff Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Owyhee County, Idaho Contributor Posts: 7,385	Re: Llama .38 Super auto pistol The 38 super is the same size as the 9MM Largo round (not Luger) which is 9x23 mm but exerts much higher pressures than the 9x23. I own several Spanish pistols in 9mm Largo but cannot shoot 38 Super in them because they are too powerful for the chambers. And 9mmLargo is getting harder to find. __________________ Be who you are & say what you will, Those that matter won't mind and those that mind don't matter. I'm a bitter clinger, One Nation Under God. Last edited by berto64; 11-07-2005 at 12:20 AM..

01-20-2009, 10:59 PM	#4
chiefchuck Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 2	Re: Llama .38 Super auto pistol I have a Llama Extra. From what little info I have been able to find it was made in 1939/40. On the left side of the slide it says cal 9mm 38 Llama. On the right side it says Llama "EXTRA". It came with a box of new .38 super and two mags. I think it is chambered for 9mm Largo? It has the Browning type barrel link system and looks just like my 1911A1 Remington except the barrel sticks out of the bushing about an eighth inch. Do I dare try .38 super in it?. Chiefchuck

01-25-2009, 09:55 PM	#6
chiefchuck Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 2	Re: Llama .38 Super auto pistol Contenderizer: Thank you for the reply. My gun does not have a rib on the slide and has the same numbers on the inside of it as do the barrel and bushing, 817. I think these numbers were assembly matching numbers so it must be original. This gun won't be used for anything serious so I think I'll use the 9mm Largo round it was made for. Oh, one last note. I don't see any of the rough machining and sharp edges that I have read other people complaining about. Chiefchuck

01-22-2009, 03:16 PM	#5
Contenderizer Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: North-Central Florida, USA Posts: 599	Re: Llama .38 Super auto pistol According to "Cartridges of The Wold", 10th Edition: "38 Super Automatic - Introduced by Colt in 1929 as an improved version of the older 38 Auto, the Super Auto is identical to the original cartridge except that it uses a more powerful loading. This is a fine high-speed sporting cartridge for the improved Government Model automatic pistol, but should not be used in older Colt pocket models. The Thompson submachine gun was once available in 38 Super chambering. In Spain, Llama has made pistols for it. It is not popular in Europe, but very popular in Canada, Mexico and South America where pistols in military chamberings have been prohibited." Another reference I have indicates that Llama made a model VIII-C in 38 Super. It is based upon the Colt 1911 and intended for import to the USA. The photo does not show a vented rib, however. But, it also does not list all of Llama's guns. Chiefchuck: If you gun was manufactured in 1939/40, it would seem safe to use the 38 Super in it as the original 38 Auto (a/k/a 38 Colt Automatic, 38 ACP) was discontinued some 10 years prior, BUT, I would do my homework first! FYI: Here in the US we tend to mispronounce Llama. It is "Li-Jama" which is Spanish for "flame." __________________ NOTE: The information herein is provided free of charge. In some instances, you may actually be getting your money's worth. Author of: The History and Guns of Simson & Co., Suhl www.cornellpubs.com

01-26-2009, 12:26 AM	#7
Bill DeShivs Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Contributor Posts: 1,467	Re: Llama .38 Super auto pistol Actually, it's pronounced "Yama." __________________ Bill DeShivs www.billdeshivs.com

01-26-2009, 07:40 AM	#8
oscarmayer Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Contributor Posts: 2,387	Re: Llama .38 Super auto pistol xracer is correct about the spotty rep llamas have. but for some odd reason 38 supers are sought after. i would strongly suggest checking out a few auction sites and see what they have been selling for. this are real world prices and sometimes they eary from the " book value "

06-11-2009, 06:19 PM	#10
yukon1984 Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 2	Re: Llama .38 Super auto pistol Hi, I came across your posting about the llama 38 super. I have an int. in it if you are wanating to part with it. You can e-mail me and let me know. thanks scott

06-12-2009, 10:07 PM	#11
AR1911 V.I.P. Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 122	Re: Llama .38 Super auto pistol ChiefChuck, Llamas made in the 1930s and 1940s were very fine weapons. I have 4 .380s from the 1940s that I would not part with.

10-23-2010, 08:18 PM	#12
marine66nam Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Southeast Texas Posts: 6	Re: Llama .38 Super auto pistol Concerning the "Llama Extra" caliber 9mm 38, I have one that I bought very used, but in fine mechanical condition at a hardware store in El Monte, Calif. in Dec. 65, try that now! I had my new wife mail it to me in Nam in boxes of cookies in pieces and carried it from Jan. 66 to Oct. 66 when I was med-evacked out. They took the pistol off of me and it sat in a battalion armorers box with 1911's for six months until a Senator from Texas made them look for it, then it was mailed to me by the Marine Corps. Sorry to be so long winded but I wanted to give some background. My Llama is an exact copy of a 19llA1 except for the cuts for the slide and the barrel lugs. I carried a 1911 at the same time as I carried my Llama and the parts exchanged without fitting, I used 1911 mags by simply bending the lips in a little. I took a cotton sack full of 9mm Luger off a Charlie and it fired it without a hickup. This was after I ran out of the 38 Super my wife sent with the pistol. Other than the 9mm I've fired nothing but 38 super +P in it (several boxes), I've had it refinshed and still carry it regularly, along with my Colt Comm., Remington 1911, and a Para-Ordnance that I carried on duty for 15 years. My Llama does not have a rib and does not have the toe on the lower front of the frame at the mag well. I understand that others may have had a bad experience with their Llama but I have trusted my life to mine, I don't know how old it is but it was well used it 1965. __________________ Ed SEMPER FI

10-24-2010, 08:16 AM	#13
AR1911 V.I.P. Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 122	Re: Llama .38 Super auto pistol Marine66, I'd sure like to see some pics of your Llama. I would bet money it was made in the 1940s. You can check the date code easily

10-24-2010, 06:43 PM	#14
marine66nam Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Southeast Texas Posts: 6	Re: Llama .38 Super auto pistol AR1911, thanks for reply. Yeah '40s or 50s sounds right, like I said it was well used when I got it just before Christmas in '65, I shipped out from Long Beach Jan. 11, '66. I've yet to find it listed in or a photo of it in any book, and I've got a few books. I'll try to get someone to show me how to upload a photo of it. __________________ Ed SEMPER FI

10-24-2010, 06:55 PM	#15
marine66nam Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Southeast Texas Posts: 6	Re: Llama .38 Super auto pistol AR1911 How do you check the date code? __________________ Ed SEMPER FI

10-24-2010, 08:12 PM	#16
Jim K Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 6,408	Re: Llama .38 Super auto pistol The 9mm Largo is not quite the same as the .38 Super since the latter is semi-rimmed, but those guns will fire either cartridge since they also have a shoulder in the chamber to accommodate the 9mm Largo and a recess at the rear of the barrel to allow use of the .38 Super. Llamas were never up to the standards of Colt, but that gun has a locked breech and is perfectly safe with .38 Super. Do not fire either .38 Super or 9mm Largo in old "double link" Colt pistols. (Some pistols chambered for 9mm Largo or .38 Super will fire some 9mm Luger or other ammunition, but it is not the right ammunition and may cause problems.) Jim

10-24-2010, 09:26 PM	#19
Jim K Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 6,408	Re: Llama .38 Super auto pistol Yes, I have some Llamas of that general era and true, they are well made. But the parts are not as well made as Colt parts and show signs of hand fitting. I really don't think it is fair to compare pistols produced in peacetime with military contract guns mass produced during a war. I have Colts (Government Models and others) made in the 1920's and 1930's and they are certainly not inferior to any Spanish gun, and are made of better materals. Further, the myth that hand fitting is better in some way is simply that, a myth. Hand fitting means that rhe maker did not have access to quality machinery, or couldn't keep good quality control, neither of which should be seen as positive. Jim

11-15-2010, 05:33 PM	#20
marine66nam Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Southeast Texas Posts: 6	Re: Llama .38 Super auto pistol Since my last posting I have rebuilt two Colt Commanders, they had been used in 22 conversions and a widebody build for my brother, while I was doing this I disassembled my Llama Extra and tried parts as I worked. I also tried parts in my Remington-rand. Other than slide to frame and grips the only parts that wouldn't work without fitting was the thumb safety (no surprise), the plunger housing (screws), and the Llama ejector is part of the frame. The bbl is 5 1/2" long. It has a grip safety and no rib on the bbl. My pistol has no stamping over the trigger guard. The ser.# is 276XX. The only stamping other than on the slide are assembly #57 inside the slide and under the left grip. The bbl is stamped 724 on the bottom. As stated before in this thread, the Largo/Bayard headspaces on the case mouth, the Super on the rim cut in the barrel hood. The Largo case is 1/100th inch longer and slightly tapered. It is very well fitted and shows no rough machining marks. __________________ Ed SEMPER FI

04-09-2012, 10:49 AM	#21
TexasShooter1 Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 2	Re: Llama .38 Super auto pistol Can you tell me anything about a Llama chrome Model 1911 9mm/.38 auto, serial # 459xxx. I am guessing manufacture date around 1967. Is .38 acp ammo around to purchase these days? Also what about extra mags? Any info. is helpful. Thanks.

04-09-2012, 01:25 PM	#23
Hammerslagger Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,099	Re: Llama .38 Super auto pistol Llama likely went out of business in 2005. Parts can be hard to find for many models. Some of their products looked well made; but such appearances were often deceiving as compared to another Spanish makers like Star and Astra, and were typically well below the quality control and durability performances of major U S makers like Colt, Ruger, and S&W. The exact year of manufacture can be found at this link for most Spanish firearms as the date codes were government mandated along with proof marks. http://star-firearms.com/firearms/proof.shtml If your gun was made in 1967 there will be a M2 stamped on the frame near the proof marks. Around the year 2000 Spanish marking standards seemed to have changed; and the year of production is often obviously included the serial number on any Spanish gun. The thread remark on 04/09/12 about "9mm/.38 Auto" raises a potential safety concern for those without a great deal of firearms/ammo expertise. Here in the USA 9mm is usually understood to mean the 9X19 mm cartridge developed for use in the German Luger or Parabellum pistol in 1902 and adopted by the German military in 1908. It is often appended by names like "Luger", "Parabellum", "Para" and "NATO". There are numerous other 9mm cartridges in the European cartridge designation system which states nominal bullet diameter and cartridge case length, sometimes with suffix modifiers. The .38 Auto and .38 Super are also nominal 9 mm cartridges, BUT THEY ARE NOT THE SAME CARTRIDGE, AND NEITHER IS THE SAME AS (or interchangeable with) THE 9X19 CARTRIDGE. Your Llama (as described) seems to be marked and designed for the USA .38 Auto cartridge which has the exact same dimensions as the much more powerful and higher pressure .38 Super cartridge! {Nominal 26,000 PSI verses 36,000 PSI} it is usually deemed not safe to shoot .38 Super in a pistol marked for .38 Auto. {.38 Auto is basically an obsolete loading; and .38 Auto ammo is often not easily found and expensive when you find it.} The 9x19 cartridge will likely load into your Llama pistol and fire and may even cycle and reload without jamming problems until the pistol likely breaks from using the wrong ammo. IT IS NOT DEEMED A SAFE PRACTICE TO DO SO! The chamber in a .38 Auto or Super pistol is nominal 23 mm long verses 19 mm long for the 9 Luger cartridge. The firing pin is able to reliably strike the primer shooting 9x19 in some loose chambered Spanish 9 X23 mm pistols, only because the extractor hold the cartridge against the breech face. Be safe, not sorry.

04-09-2012, 02:48 PM	#24
Jim K Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 6,408	Re: Llama .38 Super auto pistol The 9mm Largo is a straight-case cartridge, while the 9mm Luger is tapered. The result is that in some tight 9mm Largo chambers, some 9mm Luger rounds will wedge in and fire OK, others will be held by the extractor. While neither condition is ideal, they are not unsafe and the pistol will not "break" from such firing. Jim

04-09-2012, 05:11 PM	#25
TexasShooter1 Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 2	Re: Llama .38 Super auto pistol Thanks for the heads-up; I know it is not a 9x19 and would be sure to NOT shoot Supers out of it. It belonged to my uncle who served at Pearl Harbor on december 7 & later Guadalcanal and other points in the South Pacific theatre. I have a full box of the .38 ACP ammo he had with it but notice, as you said, it is very hard to find more. I may re-do it for sentimental purposes, as the chrome has rust spots on it now, but would like to put some rounds through it one of these days.