Todays confrontation

[Crpdeth]

I'm making this post as a means to possibly review a conflict I had with a man today and hopefully hash out what I did right and what I did wrong for my future benefit and perhaps other readers as well.

I was eating in Burger King, a treat for me because I try to shun fast foods as much as possible, I had chosen a "tactical seat" as I call it, for my wife and I, where I could see both doorways... I noticed a large stocky black man and his wife enter the establishment, a nicely dressed couple...and vaguely recall him being "hard to please" at the counter.

My wife had chosen not to eat, so when I said I was finished eating and went for a Dr Pepper refill she headed out to the truck, the man was still near the front counter attempting to correct his to-go order when I walked past him and accidentally bumped his arm, I had walked about 5 or 6 steps away when he yelled "Hey!" very loudly and I could see through my peripheral vision that he was approaching me quickly, as I turned to face him I could tell he was very upset...Then he started cussing and demanding an apology, folks I'll be the first to admit that as a CCW license holder that I should have obliged him with an apology, but there was a bit of anger stirring inside me and I didn't think I deserved to be swore at for an accident that was probably as much his fault as mine, after a minute of listening to his mouth I decided it was time to warn him about the fact that I was carrying, but as I said "I'm going to warn you" he interrupted with more belligerent, loud argument...Soooo, now mad, I set my sunglasses on the counter and asked him what his intentions were from here, he responded "My point has been made" at which time I said "that's about what I thought" and proceeded outside, but he was walking behind me a little close so I stopped and faced him once outdoors while he walked past me on to his car, he was continuing to make comments so I told him that "It's obvious that you don't want none" and went on to my truck. Once home I called the restaurant manager who had witnessed everything to ask if the Police had been called so that I could return if necessary, she stated that the Police had not been called, but confirmed that the black man had indeed been very rude to her staff and had changed his order several times.

I'm embarrassed that I did provoke this guy a couple time and I realize that as a CCW holder that I should have been A LOT more mature than that, but with that said, I think I had become angry mostly because the guy was obviously not giving me a chance to communicate rationally, or to warn him that I would use deadly force to protect my well being if his actions escalated...It appeared that short, no-nonsense, not gonna take your bull, statements is all I was going to get into the conversation.

Comments please? It worries me that in a busy place like this, that someone could possibly be loud and contentious enough that I may have to draw my weapon just to let him know it is there.


Crpdeth

[flopshot]

you're right. unfortunately as a cc you are obligated to be more tolerant of this kind of crap. don't know about tx law but in nc you actually lose some perks with a cc. that's why i won't have one. even in your own home the rules change. besides, think of what the kennedy's and schumers could do with the headlines.

[SouthernMoss]

Did the man ever give you the impression that he wanted to do more than just mouth off and cuss? If it was obvious that he was just a lot of hot air, then I don't think any mention should have been made about your concealed weapon. However, if he made threating moves toward you, then you would have been within your rights to inform him that you were armed.

I do agree that you should not provoke someone like this man; it only eggs them on. Having said that, I think overall you showed admirable restraint in dealing with this idiot.

[user_error]

Your self-criticism is right on the mark. I wouldn't have given you any other "don't do it" advice than what you've already given yourself. However, I *never* would have turned my back on a guy who was belligerent and apparently looking for some trouble. ESPECIALLY if he were "walking a little close" behind you.

[user_error]

Possible NYT headline: Man Shoots African American at Area McDonalds
Schumer pushes for hate crime legislation

[KyBlaster]

As a reflex I guess I always say "sorry about that" if I accidentally bump someone. If someone starts giving me crap and I'm packing, I try to retreat saying as little as possible. As far as telling someone I'm carrying, if they find that out, its because they just got shot. (Mine or someone elses life was in danger) If I was approached by several guys in a threatening manner I might draw down on them and back away. I would never warn someone that I was carrying.(They might be a quicker draw than me)

I guess what I'm saying is I tend to be less aggressive if I'm carrying.(I don't want to be the poster child to some liberal's cause.) And if I need to let someone know I have a weapon its because I feel deadly force is necessary. That person will know I have a weapon because they will see it or feel it.

My .02

[Deputy Dawg]

KyBaster, that is the way it should be,I see it the same way you do.

[Crpdeth]

Thanks for the responses Guys!

Originally Posted by SouthernMoss

Did the man ever give you the impression that he wanted to do more than just mouth off and cuss?

Somo, I am of the opinion that if a man is in your face (in your space) hollering and cussing, then I believe you have to assume that they may be planning to cause you harm...Given the size of the man he could definately cause life threatening injuries with a relatively light (to him) punch to the throat of most guys.

Originally Posted by SouthernMoss

then you would have been within your rights to inform him that you were armed.

Thanks, this is something I would like to discuss further here.

Originally Posted by KyBlaster

As far as telling someone I'm carrying, if they find that out, its because they just got shot.

I'd love to discuss this further...I may need a CCW refresher course, but wouldnt you agree that the mention of "being licensed by the State to carry the firearm that you feel you are about be forced to use" would disolve most serious arguements BEFORE the need to cancel someone? This, I think is where I have a problem with a few arguements, I dont want the arguement to heighten to the point that I have to draw and shoot...And there again I may need a refresher course but I would tend to believe the guy deserved to be warned - and I may be off base again, but it seems to me that a judge would like to hear that you did warn him, maybe several times, before pulling your piece...

Originally Posted by user_error

I *never* would have turned my back on a guy who was belligerent and apparently looking for some trouble. ESPECIALLY if he were "walking a little close" behind you.

Point taken, but I was definately keeping an eye on the situitation and constantly accessing what was going on...At this point, it was time to take it outside, but I was being carefull, this may be one of those "ya had to have been there" things, but I felt safe enough (at that point) to do so.

Originally Posted by user_error

Possible NYT headline: Man Shoots African American at Area McDonalds
Schumer pushes for hate crime legislation

Agreed once again, but you carry for a reason, people like this guy are obviously the reason.

I'm not painting myself to be perfect in this scenario, I definately showed some childish behavior and want to learn from it, but when you are in a possible life threatening situitation you really wont be worried about what Schumer has to say about you.

Crpdeth

[Deputy Dawg]

I wuold not have told him i was carrying unless you felt is was absolutely necessary and you feared for your life.What if he was packing also, I would want the element of surprise. I forgot to say if you accidently flash your weapon you can loose your CCW permit, I know that is a bummer but you are held to a higher standard than joe blow. It would be to your benefit to think and react as if you were not armed,unless you feared for your life.

[user_error]

With regards to the headline... any action you take with a weapon, no matter how justified, would be portrayed as "calculated", "cold-blooded" and of course having "racial components" by the mainstream media. It wasn't a dig at you, it was a dig at the New York Times.

[KyBlaster]

Originally Posted by Crpdeth

I'd love to discuss this further...I may need a CCW refresher course, but wouldnt you agree that the mention of "being licensed by the State to carry the firearm that you feel you are about be forced to use" would disolve most serious arguements BEFORE the need to cancel someone? This, I think is where I have a problem with a few arguements, I dont want the arguement to heighten to the point that I have to draw and shoot...And there again I may need a refresher course but I would tend to believe the guy deserved to be warned - and I may be off base again, but it seems to me that a judge would like to hear that you did warn him, maybe several times, before pulling your piece...Crpdeth

I'm not saying I'm just going to throw down and start shooting at the drop of a hat. I'm saying if I'm in a verbal conflict with an unarmed man, no matter how big he is, I will not draw my weapon. No need to warn him. I will either fight him the conventional way, try to talk the situation down or run.

However, if I am confronted by an armed assailant, see someone else being attacked where I think they will be killed or wittness a rape etc. I will shoot first, talk later.

[user_error]

According to AZ dept of public safety: "example #2: you are in a headed argument that turns into shoving and punching. To make a point, you pull back your coat, revealing your gun. You put your hand on the gun and tell the other person that he had better buzz off or you will end hte argument right now. Simple assault + deadly weapon = aggravated assault."

[Crpdeth]

Originally Posted by Deputy Dawg

I wuold not have told him i was carrying unless you felt is was absolutely necessary and you feared for your life.What if he was packing also, I would want the element of surprise.

Okay, I guess this is the grey area for me, and again I'm enjoying the opportunity to kick this around...Guys, no offence taken, If I wanted everyone on my side I would have candy coated the story, not the case! I posted as a means to stop and reflect as a way to better deal with future problems in my mind before they arise.

Deputy, okay what if he is carrying... What if he has a 7" fixed blade in the back of his pants, at what point in the arguement would you react? There is a good chance that he's not going to start yelling that he's going to kill you UNTILL the blade is in his hand, at that time you are going to have precious seconds to wrench the firearm from it's secure location.

I also totally understand the element of surprise, but dont you agree as I stated above that the mention of being licensed by the State, blaa blaa blaa, would make most people first of all stop and wonder, ok who is this guy? Is he in a position of authority? The State of Texas? That sounds serious, and secondly of course that there is a big chance of being shot... Wouldn't that make most people stop and consider their next move a little more cautiously.

Originally Posted by KyBlaster

I will either fight him the conventional way, try to talk the situation down or run.

Fair enough, been in a few fights myself and most result in no more than swollen hands, black eyes and busted egos, but as bullet proof as I sometimes think I am...I'm not, I've seen my share of one punch knock outs in my life and can show you some on video, I said all that to say this, if I'm carrying, I dont think I'm obligated by law to go fist ta' cuff with anyone, what if I do go down and he retrives my pistol, what if I just slip and it falls out where he can grab it and kill me and others who try to stop him?

Again, I'm enjoying the debate, if you can call it that, no hard feelings here...If there were I'd flash my license!

Crpdeth

[KyBlaster]

No hard feelings, crpdeth. I too enjoy a good spirited debate.

I just feel that when you take on the responsibility of "going heavy", you should choose your battles wisely. Avoid the petty confrontations that could land you in a world of hurt.(With the courts.) I know its hard with some of the punks out there today. Especially in front of your spouse. But if your in jail for assult with a deadly weapon, brandishing a weapon or worse, your not going to help anyone or yourself.

When you really need your weapon be quick, deliberate and accurate.

[KyBlaster]

By the way, where is Paris? I used to live in Rockdale.(about 45 min. east of Austin)

[SouthernMoss]

Been trying to read the Texas Penal Code... it's almost as bad as the Federal income tax laws!

Anyway, here's what Title 2, Chapter 9, Section 9.31 has to say:
(click here for complete code)

§ 9.31. SELF-DEFENSE.
(a) Except as provided in Subsection (b), a person is justified in using force against another when and to the degree he reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force.

(b) The use of force against another is not justified:

(1) in response to verbal provocation alone; (my emphasis)

<snip>

This is why I asked if he was doing more than just mouthing off. Our LEO members can correct me if I'm wrong, but I would imagine that informing the man that you carry a weapon could conceivably be construed as "using force", or at the very least, the threat of force.

[user_error]

I believe there is an unspoken exception there in TX law, as I know there is in AZ law according to AZDPS and local law enforcement pamphlets. If the man threatens you with "greivous bodily harm" and can be reasonably expected to be capable of it, verbal "provocation" turns into criminal assault and can be met with deadly force. If he says "I'm gonna kill you" or "I'm gonna rip off your arms" or "I'll tear off your head and **** down your neck" you are probably well-justified within the law to defend yourself with the threat of deadly force. As long as the guy isn't a parapalegic, or 4'10".

However, to actually USE that force, there is some murkiness but a rule of thumb is that deadly force can only be met by deadly force. Baseball bats, vehicles, knives, chairs, etc are all considered deadly weapons, as of course guns are. Interestingly enough, even the threat of "grievous bodily harm" has never been rejected (that I have found) as a suitable legal defense by AZ law, when a woman defends herself with deadly force against a large, intimidating unarmed man who verbally threatens her.

I know that none of this *really* applies since you're in TX, but I figure the information is useful for discussion.

[Pistolenschutze]

You faced a most difficult situation, Crp. It seems to me you certainly had reason to believe the confrontation COULD turn physically threatening. It seems the man was surely looking for trouble. But as the others have commented already, you were caught between a rock and a hard place as a CCW holder. I'm not certain what I would have done in your place, other than if the man actually attempted an attack, at which point he would definitely have been looking down the bore of a .45. By the way, I would certainly have felt the same emotion of anger you did; that's only human, I think. Overall, I'd say you handled the situation rather well given the circumstances. I also think you did the right thing by not revealing the fact that you were armed, and certainly by not drawing a weapon even though you had at least some provocation.

[tom vito]

Fair enough, been in a few fights myself and most result in no more than swollen hands, black eyes and busted egos, but as bullet proof as I sometimes think I am...I'm not, I've seen my share of one punch knock outs in my life and can show you some on video, I said all that to say this, if I'm carrying, I dont think I'm obligated by law to go fist ta' cuff with anyone, what if I do go down and he retrives my pistol, what if I just slip and it falls out where he can grab it and kill me and others who try to stop him?

As a CCW holder in PA, I will alaways try to fight before presenting a weapon, or even mention that I have a weapon on my person.

I dont believe telling someone that you have a handgun concealed will defuse any situation, I think it will heighten it. I will may discourage the big mouth, but the person that really meand harm, will try hader to bring you that harm. And isn't concealed carry really meant to bring surprise to the fight? If we are going to tell everyone in ears length that we are armed, we might as well all just carry wild west style. Open carry for the whole world to see.

As for your case, I think you did ok, you got out of the situation without any harm. You did not have to present your weapon. And heck I didn't even see where you said you were sorry for bumping him. I know that you think that it may have been his fault as much as yours, but if you hit a parked car while driving, is the parked car at fault?


Not trying to be harsh, just trying offer another point of view for your debate.

[Crpdeth]

Originally Posted by tom vito

And heck I didn't even see where you said you were sorry for bumping him.

My apology was predicated on his attitude...Should I have obliged him with an apology? Yes, without a doubt, especially as a CCW license carrier, but the truth of the matter is, he was already fired up and I didn't see (at that point) how it would have done alot to change anything.

I appreciate the time to reflect and hear the opinion of others, but I still feel that there is a very thin line between what is considered heated banter and when it goes into a physical threat...I still hold to the notion that before I became licensed to carry, and at such time that I may happen to not be carrying that a good old fashion hand to hand arguement settleing is fine, but what I dont understand is that I seem to be the only one who feels that the .357 mag in my back pocket needs to stay under my control and it's going to be hard to retain control over it in a close fight, rolling around in a parking lot.

Originally Posted by tom vito

if you hit a parked car while driving, is the parked car at fault?

He was far from "parked", he was pacing around acting like a general idiot.

Originally Posted by KyBlaster

I just feel that when you take on the responsibility of "going heavy", you should choose your battles wisely. Avoid the petty confrontations that could land you in a world of hurt.(With the courts.) I know its hard with some of the punks out there today. Especially in front of your spouse.

Ky:
In no way did I choose this battle and I did walk away from it in a sense...The guy did follow me, then fortunately decide to go on about his day, but the inital dispute was, in my eyes, unaviodable.
My spouse was in the truck oblivious to the entire thing so there was no ego pressure at all.

ALL SAID...I am coming to terms with a few things, verbal arguements are hard to predict, hard to nail down and say "Do it this way and only this way every time under every circumstance" constant evaluation of the guy who has confronted you is necessary to access his intentions, whether he be a blabber mouth or whether he really is getting ready to stab you...What may work well in one situitation may fall all to pieces in the next...I dont think anyone here is wrong in the way they decide to deal with a tough scenario in the way they percieve that scenario going down, unfortunately we cant know what the bad guy is thinking, unfortunately our preconceived actions in a pre conceived encounter may lead to disaster, or they may go according to plan.

I think for my own well being and that of others I have decided to not only arm myself with a .357 mag, but also with some wisdom that steps outside of the CCW classroom. The first step today was to order a book called Verbal Judo by George Thompson, I'll read that and go from there, I think I owe it to myself to constantly think more about the possible ramificatons of carrying and less about the caliber that I'm carrying, more about how to diffuse a situitation and less about how that I carry the ability to "end" a situitation in my favor.

A perfect day for resolutions...

Happy New Year

Crpdeth

[KyBlaster]

Crp, I think you have a pretty good handle on things. You actually showed pretty good restraint. I wasn't trying to criticize you just offer my opinions. I hope you take it this way.
That fact that you are so candid with your descricption of the events and your own self analisis shows me you are responsible when it comes to your actions.
I like to think I would just back down and not say anything to this idiot. But the truth is you never know til its you being cussed out and provoked by this sort.
I do enjoy a good debate though.

The end result is you didn't have to shoot or fight anyone.
You seem to take having a CCW very seriously. And you should.

I would like to hear a review on the book when you finish. Sounds interesting.

[Vincent]

Originally Posted by user_error

Your self-criticism is right on the mark. I wouldn't have given you any other "don't do it" advice than what you've already given yourself. However, I *never* would have turned my back on a guy who was belligerent and apparently looking for some trouble. ESPECIALLY if he were "walking a little close" behind you.

Very good advice I think. Very good.

[Crpdeth]

Originally Posted by KyBlaster

I would like to hear a review on the book when you finish. Sounds interesting.

Looking forward to it Bro...Thanks for your comments as well.

Crpdeth

[LIKTOSHOOT]

Turn in your CHL !!!!!


LTS

[Deputy Dawg]

Originally Posted by SouthernMoss

Been trying to read the Texas Penal Code... it's almost as bad as the Federal income tax laws!

Anyway, here's what Title 2, Chapter 9, Section 9.31 has to say:
(click here for complete code)



This is why I asked if he was doing more than just mouthing off. Our LEO members can correct me if I'm wrong, but I would imagine that informing the man that you carry a weapon could conceivably be construed as "using force", or at the very least, the threat of force.

SoMo you are right ,that is what it said.