Todays confrontation

[Crpdeth]

Originally Posted by LIKTOSHOOT

Turn in your CHL !!!!!


LTS

BITE ME old Man!

Crp

[user_error]

Originally Posted by tom vito

And isn't concealed carry really meant to bring surprise to the fight? If we are going to tell everyone in ears length that we are armed, we might as well all just carry wild west style. Open carry for the whole world to see.

Because: in some states that's illegal. Like Texas =)

[Deputy Dawg]

Originally Posted by Crpdeth

Deputy, okay what if he is carrying... What if he has a 7" fixed blade in the back of his pants, at what point in the arguement would you react? There is a good chance that he's not going to start yelling that he's going to kill you UNTILL the blade is in his hand, at that time you are going to have precious seconds to wrench the firearm from it's secure location.

I also totally understand the element of surprise, but dont you agree as I stated above that the mention of being licensed by the State, blaa blaa blaa, would make most people first of all stop and wonder, ok who is this guy? Is he in a position of authority? The State of Texas? That sounds serious, and secondly of course that there is a big chance of being shot... Wouldn't that make most people stop and consider their next move a little more cautiously.





Crpdeth

You make a valid point, and do not give up your CHL as someone else stated,I think over all you handled the situation very well, I just wanted to give you some more thing to think about.

[SouthernMoss]

the .357 mag in my back pocket needs to stay under my control and it's going to be hard to retain control over it in a close fight

You are absolutely correct in this statement. And what this means is that you must avoid getting into a close fight, rolling around in the parking lot, etc, while armed. I know, I know, easier said than done. But that's part of the responsibility of carrying.

[Crpdeth]

Originally Posted by Deputy Dawg

You make a valid point, and do not give up your CHL as someone else stated,I think over all you handled the situation very well, I just wanted to give you some more thing to think about.

Heh Heh...

Mike is just funning, with his usual one line post, as was I, thanks for all you're opinions and thoughts guys\girl

If nothing else I'm doing alot more thinking these days...There are some things about this particular situitation that are hard enough to explain that I almost wish I hadn't even begun the discussion...Almost.

I've been in enough confrontations to know this big ol' guy was, at one point at least, about to snap, leaving me with some hard instant decisions to make...Did he ever threaten my life? No...Did I feel that through his demenor and very probable co-dependancy that I was in danger? Well, obviously enough to question whether or not I should inform him that I was prepared to use deadly force if his actions were to escalate...

It is nice to recap the law concerning "verbal provocation alone" but I know that everyone knows my intention was simply to warn this guy, not to use deadly force...I feel that after a fair warning the rest is up to him.

Still there is a grey area...A fine thin line that the bad guy apparently has to cross before even recieving a warning, will you have time to control the situitation between the time he crosses this line and you are "rolling around in the parking lot"? Again I suppose each scenario would play out differently.

Deserves alot of thought

Crpdeth

[SAXD]

Originally Posted by SouthernMoss

However, if he made threating moves toward you, then you would have been within your rights to inform him that you were armed.

IMO concealed is concealed, not for anyone to know. The only way someone should find out is if they are a LEO dealing with you, or if they reach that point that you have to draw your weapon. I carry concealed off duty every day, I would never tell anyone I am carrying. Again, thats my opinion.
As far as how you dealt with the situation, Id say good, the situation ended without a physical altercation, and Id say the guy learned that you wouldnt be intimidated by his "tough guy" act.

[LIKTOSHOOT]

Ah.....I wasn`t funnin in the least. One line was all that was needed.


LTS

[Crpdeth]

Originally Posted by LIKTOSHOOT

Ah.....I wasn`t funnin in the least. One line was all that was needed.


LTS

You need a badge then

[Smoky14]

Donny: Hey old friend. I skimmed these postings and I found one thing missing.
When I encounter a sit like yours I put distance between me and the person in question. If he is armed, knife or gun, distance is my friend and I might just be able to out shoot him if necessary and have better cover, movement, and communication.
If the gun comes out it's to shoot.

Just a couple of thoughts.

Smoky the thinker...well sometimes

[user_error]

The "element of surprise" is not the reason you conceal carry.

[armedandsafe]

I've been in similar situations a couple (or more) times in my life. I've found that if I focus my full attention on the man's eyes, and slowly smile, they back off just a little. That little is all I need to make some distance between us, keeping eye contact all the time. All you have to do is unnerve them just a little and the thinking part of their brain kicks in. Once they start thinking, you have half (or more) of the battle won.

Pops

[45Smashemflat]

Smoky picked up my thoughts already - A simple hands up, palms out about chest high, "Hey buddy, 'scuse me..." two steps backwards maintaining eye contact.

Now you gained distance, shown some degree of civility, and put the ball squarely in his court. (oh, and your hands are about where you start an IDPA drill.....)

Next move is his

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by 45Smashemflat

(oh, and your hands are about where you start an IDPA drill.....)

That last being the most important reason for doing it! If the weapon must be drawn, it should always be with the intention to shoot, not for further discussion. At that point, the time for talk has passed.

[Crpdeth]

Originally Posted by Smoky14

Donny: Hey old friend. I skimmed these postings and I found one thing missing.
When I encounter a sit like yours I put distance between me and the person in question.

Hey Man

Sound advice, in this particular instance however I wasn't able to get the distance that I wanted due to confined space which only added to the reason for my inital post...Had I felt more comfortable (at one point at least) I would have never questioned whether or not I would have to resort, if you will, to "last resorts".

Originally Posted by armedandsafe

I've been in similar situations a couple (or more) times in my life. I've found that if I focus my full attention on the man's eyes...

I personally feel that this is very improtant, if you make an idiot feel that he has control, or that you are intimidated, he may very well take the next step where he wouldn't otherwise, not maintaining eye contact, in my opinion could definately be misconstrued as fear...The old saying "If you look like food, you're probably going to get eaten" comes to mind.

Originally Posted by armedandsafe

Once they start thinking, you have half (or more) of the battle won.

I think alot of my arguement in this thread has been based (at least in part) on this obvious fact.

Good stuff Guys

Crpdeth

[inplanotx]

I think alot of my arguement in this thread has been based (at least in part) on this obvious fact.

You should have just leaned over, kissed him and then blew in his ear!

[Crpdeth]

ROTF!...So Rick, you contend that perhaps I didn't provoke this fella nearly enough huh!


Crpdeth

[LIKTOSHOOT]

Crpdeth, Sorry for the delay in getting back----too many hours and so little time.

First Burger King as a treat, this would be your first mistake, painted on flame grilled stripes???? Good grief!!

Second, the tactical seat?? (shows aggressiveness to start with) just where is this coveted seat in a low booth glass fish bowl, where even the most casual glance can cover the entire interior. I believe the real name is the "Gunfighters Seat/Chair"

Third, you recall him being hard to please "vaguely"... this means something to me right off the bat. You are some what aware of his demeanor, maybe more than you admit.

Fourth, You were going to apologize, but you felt no need because of his words to you??? You didn`t deserve it. Ok, so you do what-then??? First thought/action....I`m carrying and warning you of such. Whether said or not, first action.

Fifth, you remove your glasses and ask his intentions. At this point you are now the one escallating this senerio and calling him out, and it`s that simple.

Sixth, you have summed it up at the end, never giving in and getting in the LAST parting shot. This means you couldn`t let it go and proved you would not by making the comment.
"It's obvious that you dont want none" and went on to my truck.


Tunnel vision at best and no reguard for the folks in the place of business.
What if he also had a CHL??? What would you say about how he acted---be careful before you answer......you may be speaking to the mirror.

This is my view from the lawyers seat, prossecuting you for violating every rule you were or supposed to have been taught in order to carry a concealed firearm. To brutal??? I believe you have a wife and a child on the way, I would like to see you spend many years with them and not weekend visits. You broke every rule of CHL.

With that said, because people can pass the CHL testing does not make everyone right for carry.

My buck two seventy five.


and you ain`t no small white guy either......


Just a light outline without embelishment, not a lot of time to be wordy these days.



LTS

[Crpdeth]

Originally Posted by LIKTOSHOOT

Crpdeth, Sorry for the delay in getting back----too many hours and so little time.
LTS

No problem, I'm not used to seeing you here often anyway.

Originally Posted by LIKTOSHOOT

First Burger King as a treat, this would be your first mistake, painted on flame grilled stripes???? Good grief!!
LTS

A "treat" because as stated, I dont do fast food often.

Originally Posted by LIKTOSHOOT

Second, the tactical seat?? (shows aggressiveness to start with) just where is this coveted seat in a low booth glass fish bowl, where even the most casual glance can cover the entire interior. I believe the real name is the "Gunfighters Seat/Chair"
LTS

Do you even have a CHL? One of the first things we were taught was to be aware of our surroundings, show's aggressiveness? Says who? LOL, It shows alertness...Hey if you want to sit half asleep with your back to the door be my guest...If I am alert in my viehicle at a redlight, by your analogy I suppose I'm "Riding Shotgun"?...I believe it was our member Salvage33 who saved his own life by being in this "gunfighters seat\chair" at a traffic light a few years ago...Sleep if you wish, I bet he's glad that he is alert and ALIVE today.

Originally Posted by LIKTOSHOOT

Third, you recall him being hard to please "vaguely"... this means something to me right off the bat. You are some what aware of his demeanor, maybe more than you admit.
LTS

If I was going to LIE (as you imply) or candy coat anything, first of all I probabally wouldnt have made this post, if I did I wouldn't have posted on my obvious blunders...Blunders which I readily admit to...Even if I was "more aware of his demeamor than I admit"...What difference would it make? What does it mean to you "right off the bat", anything? Really?

Originally Posted by LIKTOSHOOT

Fourth, You were going to apologize, but you felt no need because of his words to you??? You didn`t deserve it. Ok, so you do what-then??? First thought/action....I`m carrying and warning you of such. Whether said or not, first action.
LTS

Tring to understand this one, it's kinda jumbled, What would you have done? or as in my case 'thought of doing' Mike?

Originally Posted by LIKTOSHOOT

Fifth, you remove your glasses and ask his intentions. At this point you are now the one escallating this senerio and calling him out, and it`s that simple.
LTS

True, admitted and discussed throughly already, I wasn't going to have my glasses smashed into my face, nor would you have.

Originally Posted by LIKTOSHOOT

Sixth, you have summed it up at the end, never giving in and getting in the LAST parting shot. This means you couldn`t let it go and proved you would not by making the comment.
"It's obvious that you dont want none" and went on to my truck.
LTS

Once again, a discussed and admitted blunder on my part, but I broke no laws, at this point he had already gave me a good cussing in front of the staff...Under the circumstances I held my tounge pretty well...I kinda wonder if you would have.

Originally Posted by LIKTOSHOOT

Tunnel vision at best and no reguard for the folks in the place of business.

Regard? Wrong...Thats why I went outside.

Originally Posted by LIKTOSHOOT

What if he also had a CHL??? What would you say about how he acted---be careful before you answer......you may be speaking to the mirror.
LTS

Naa, thats easy, people with his attitude generally dont go for a license, they may stuff a .25 in their pocket on the way out the door and cause trouble everywhere they go, but no one is going to "tell them what to do" untill they meet Bubba in the State Pen, had he been a CHL holder he would have had enough schooling in the State of Texas to not call my hand. What I have to say about "how he acted" is certainally not predicated on any kind of license he may or may not be carrying nor do I see the relevance.

Originally Posted by LIKTOSHOOT

You broke every rule of CHL.
LTS

Really? Which ones?

Originally Posted by LIKTOSHOOT

and you ain`t no small white guy either......
LTS

What size am I then Mike?

Originally Posted by LIKTOSHOOT

Just a light outline
LTS

True, thanks for your time.

Crpdeth (sitting in the Gunfighters Seat)

[Bill]

I think in the situation you described it would be extremely ill advised to tell the person you were armed. He could have been on you in milliseconds beating the crap out of you before you could draw the gun. Or if he was armed it might be all he needs to draw and take you out...Claiming you threatened him. Your best course of action would have been to ignore this guy as you simply exited the establishment. Your description sounded like you encountered a verbal bully and does not sound like it was life threatening. This crap goes on all the time and no one needs to die over it. Was he wrong? You bet. You were correct in not advising him you were armed.
Bill

[Crpdeth]

Originally Posted by Bill

I think in the situation you described it would be extremely ill advised to tell the person you were armed. He could have been on you in milliseconds beating the crap out of you before you could draw the gun. Or if he was armed it might be all he needs to draw and take you out...Claiming you threatened him. Your best course of action would have been to ignore this guy as you simply exited the establishment. Your description sounded like you encountered a verbal bully and does not sound like it was life threatening. This crap goes on all the time and no one needs to die over it. Was he wrong? You bet. You were correct in not advising him you were armed.
Bill

One thing that I am convinced of Bill, is that the best possible course of action will be determined on a case by case basis, your scenario ( "He could have been on you in milliseconds beating the crap out of you") only reiterates what I've said before...As a CHL carrier you are expected to maintain control of your handgun, how will you do this with him "beating the crap out of you"...I contend that in many circumstances, not all, but depending on the guy and depending on the scenario he may be getting ready to do just that anyway, we have to be the judge of that unfortunately.
I dont believe as a CHL holder you need to be rolling around on the ground with your piece under your belt...I think his behavior, his demenor, his ability to take you out, his percieved intentions all have to be taken into account and unfortunately you wont have all day to do it.

And you are 100% right in my book, no one needs to die over it...I've been in situitations where I had every legal right to pull the trigger on an intruder and allowed him to leave...Life is too precious.

I have sat on a panel and I cant give any specifics, but I can say for certain, after you pull the trigger you are in for a rough ride, innocent or not.

Thank for your respectful post Bill...I enjoied your thoughts.

Crpdeth

[whiteclouder]

Heh-heh. That's a great story. Stuff like that is why I write fiction. Thanks for sharing that.

Clouder..

[kikr]

My response is always an instant policy followed by a question of concern (are you ok?). It instantly defuses the situation, most of time. Yeah you made a mistake or two but don't beat yourself up too bad. From your description this guy sounds like a genuine a-hole and nothing you couldve said would have made it better. Live, learn, and laugh.

[DEANROSS]

I hate when ppl bump into me, it happens though, why i dont know, i hate when i am in a check out line, next person has to be all up on me, a lil elbow room is nice, when i do get bumped, i expect an apology within 2 steps, not six nor none at all, im sorry but i think you should have apologized a bit sooner, and call me racist but we all know black men have a bit of a complex to begine with. my second thought, i have never had a man say this to me, but for you to say i am armed, would have just pissed me off a lil more, kinda made you look like a coward that cant stand his own ground, i hate a coward, yet one last thought , men that carry on ther hip in public is just one way of them saying hey look at me, my opinion, ther just looking for trouble, many will disagree with me on this, but just my 2 cents,

[KyBlaster]

I can't believe this thread is still going.

[southernshooter]

I know it's a late post but what the HE!!

My general rule of thumb is don't pull till he pulls. He may pull a baton,knife taser, or etc. That will help you out in court. And think of this If you say I am armed no matter how fast you are he can stick you with a knife quicker exspecially a switch or the auto everyone likes now a days