Best Tactical Response

[Pistolenschutze]

OK, it's scenerio time (just for the hell of it, and because Crp just had a somwhat similar situation):

You, along with your "significant other," are confronted by two young toughs in a Wally World parking lot about 1:00 in the morning.

You have a CCW and are armed with your trusty "blaster" whatever kind it may be.

It is rather dark around you (because you foolishly parked your new Beamer way out in the lot so it wouldn't get scratched), so there is no help (nor witnesses) in sight.

Each tough has one hand in a jacket pocket, though no weapons have been shown.

The confrontation verbally escalates with vile language and threats to your person or that of your companion.

What response would you take?

[Smoky14]

Try to talk, can't run anymore, leave two dead bodies so the only story is mine.

[Slimslam]

First I'd give 'em a dose of my Shemp Howard "heebeebeebee...heeebeebeebee stuff....then I'd say (in my Shemp voice) "Oh, a coupla wise guys, eh?...how 'bout some lead poisoning?" Then I'd let my Ruger SP101 .357 finish the conversation.

[45Smashemflat]

Get between wife and thugs - she immeadiately thumbs 911, due to earlier training.

Verbally attempt to difuse situation while gaining distance, and attempting to manuever to gain cover of vehicle. (Note - it wouldn't have been a beamer, there's your first problem... :-)

If none of this is working, and the thugs are proceeding with threatening maneuvers, then move to defensive flaslight to blind while drawing weapon under cover.

Assuming they have not responded to this action, let them know I'm armed and prepared to defend due to the weapons I assume they have (note - 911 operator can now hear this....)

They move on the light? Doom on them....

[Smoky14]

"Take cover behind vehicle" Now if it's a new Beemer take cover behind someone else's car or truck. No sense making holes in a new car especially your own.

And with all due respect, stay out of parking lots at 1am, too many BG with nothing to do at that time of day.

Smoky older but wiser

[Crpdeth]

The part that the two thugs more than likely fail to realize is that my wife and I are both armed and that Walmart has in the past few years stepped up its security program, so my viehicle is not hard to find at Walmart...It's parked on the side of the building where parking is always easy to find, in direct line of sight with a cam.

Night time tends to create better laws for the CHL carrier due to the decreased ability to see, albeit, we do have lots of sodium lights on the building so that goes in our favor anyway...

I voted to talk these guys down, but I also think this situitation is very different, they are apporaching you in a parking lot, at night, their intentions are clearly not to sell girl scout cookies, their intentions MAY very well be on the up and up, but I concure with putting distance between us and them... Upon noticing them my wife will quietly recieve instruction, something like "I have the one on the right, you take the small, ugly one, on the left" and If their intentions become clear (as they are in your scenario, with verbal threats), they will quickly find that they are outnumbered, out trained, and more than likely outgunned by two people who dont push around real easily

Crpdeth.

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by Crpdeth

I voted to talk these guys down, but I also think this situitation is very different, they are apporaching you in a parking lot, at night, their intentions are clearly not to sell girl scout cookies, their intentions MAY very well be on the up and up, but I concure with putting distance between us and them... Upon noticing them my wife will quietly recieve instruction, something like "I have the one on the right, you take the small, ugly one, on the left" and If their intentions become clear (as they are in your scenario, with verbal threats), they will quickly find that they are outnumbered, out trained, and more than likely outgunned by two people who dont push around real easily.

Exactly so, Crp. I purposely set up the scenerio to close off some of the options we always hope to have, but all too often don't. This is a situation I think we all fear the most, i.e., one where we may have to decide to take preemptory action. In real life, I believe my own actions would be quite similar to what you describe. I'm all for talking them down if that is possible. No rational person wants to shoot if there is another rational choice. But like you, I don't push easily. I do know this: If a weapon came out of a pocket--any kind of weapon--I would draw and shoot without hesitation.

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by 45Smashemflat

(Note - it wouldn't have been a beamer, there's your first problem... :-)

Nor would it be with me, Smash. More like a Ford pickup for me anyway. BMWs are for people who spend mony for cars that would be much better spent for rifles and handguns.

[pickenup]

Too many unknowns here. At what point/location did the confrontation begin. Are both you and your “significant other” on the same side of the car? Or is one on either side? Where are the “toughs” at? On the other side of the car, on the same side, front, back, together, separated?

I’m sure that all would agree that every scenario would be unique, actions would depend on circumstances.

Under your rather sketchy outline (no offence ) Trying to talk your way out of it, is always the first choice. Don’t have a shoe phone, so that is out. I’m too old to run, so that is also out. Which leaves---shooting the SOBs.

At the first sign of any confrontation, I would position my body so that they would not be able to see my gun hand, which would be drawing my gun, if the threat seemed sufficient. My wife would be doing the same. (thus the question about everyone’s location) (hope it never happens, but yes, the wife and I have gone over this, and other, scenarios in our conversations)

If in the course of trying to talk our way out of it, the warning would be issued. (You will have to relay this “warning” to the “court” later on) ANY forward motion by the “toughs” (which I would have perceived to be life threatening) would be met with sufficient force to halt the advance.
P.S.
I will clarify one point. I said you would have to relay what happened to the COURT, because you NEVER EVER talk to the police about what happened. NEVER!!! “I want to talk with my lawyer” is ALL you say to them.

[Deputy Dawg]

Originally Posted by pickenup

I will clarify one point. I said you would have to relay what happened to the COURT, because you NEVER EVER talk to the police about what happened. NEVER!!! “I want to talk with my lawyer” is ALL you say to them.

That is very good advice pickenup,and also remember you never shoot ot kill only to stop the threat.

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by Deputy Dawg

That is very good advice pickenup,and also remember you never shoot ot kill only to stop the threat.

At least that is what you maintain in court, Dawg, the .45 caliber double-tap to the ocular-cranial cavity notwithstanding: "But your honor, I thought two 230 grain HydraShok slugs to the head would only stun him so I could run away and escape."

PS: You are also absolutely correct in what you say, Dawg, all kidding aside. The actual purpose is always to stop the attack and escape unharmed, not necessarily to kill the attacker. The legal system being what it is, though, I sometimes wonder if we would not be better off to "off" the assailant leaving only one story to be told.

[Deputy Dawg]

Originally Posted by Pistolenschutze

At least that is what you maintain in court, Dawg, the .45 caliber double-tap to the ocular-cranial cavity notwithstanding: "But your honor, I thought two 230 grain HydraShok slugs to the head would only stun him so I could run away and escape."

PS: You are also absolutely correct in what you say, Dawg, all kidding aside. The actual purpose is always to stop the attack and escape unharmed, not necessarily to kill the attacker. The legal system being what it is, though, I sometimes wonder if we would not be better off to "off" the assailant leaving only one story to be told.

Ok in reality you do shoot to KILL,but you would never tell an officer that at the scene, or the jury in court.

[Deputy Dawg]

As for myself I would most likely pull out my badge and gun at the same time,and then ask if we had a problem, but if they reached into there pocket or anywhere else the only thing I can say then is may GOD rest there soul.

[flopshot]

what the hell are you do'in at wal mart anyway ?
joking aside, hands in jackets imply weapons, case closed

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by flopshot

hands in jackets imply weapons, case closed

Exactly my point, Flop. I think that factor is what makes this scenerio more difficult than we would hope for in a confrontation. A bullet is faster than a knife, but not necessarily faster than another bullet. Hands in pockets are, I think, a damn good reason to worry, and perhaps to take preemptory action with all the complications that may entail.

Originally Posted by Deputy Dawg

Ok in reality you do shoot to KILL,but you would never tell an officer that at the scene, or the jury in court.

I fully agree, Dawg.

Originally Posted by Deputy Dawg

As for myself I would most likely pull out my badge and gun at the same time,and then ask if we had a problem,

Being a LEO does have its advantages, that is certainly true. We civilian CCW holders, unfortunately, don't have that advantage. What I would feel like asking the potential assailant is, "Do you have a problem, or do you just want to create one?" That, however, might be interpreted as purposefully escalating the conflict verbally and viewed harshly by a prosecutor and jury. What would your advice be, Dawg, on what actually to say in such a crisis? Would the CCW be better off to simply say nothing and only react if the assailant actually moves to violence? Is it better to say something like, "Hey man, back off, I'm not looking for trouble here?" Seriously, I would be very interested in your professional opinion on this Dawg. Thanks.

[45Smashemflat]

Recognizing the good advice "I want to talk to my lawyer," be aware that the bulk of cops do understand the concepts of self defense. Be prepared for the question, "were you in fear for your life?" and answer appropriately. You want to be be on record as being in a defensive situation. The 911 operator should already know this. Remember the call from the grandma in Texas that was played all over the news.

[KyBlaster]

This is a tough one. I would definetly tell my wife to stay behind me and try to take cover. Then I would seek cover for myself. Trying to put a vehicle between me and them. I would keep eye contact with the most threatening looking one.Me and my wife have discussed similar scenarios and she knows to take cover and try to maintain a safe distance. I would do the same. If they continued to move on us or started to split up, still moving on us. (Seperating to get flanking positions.) I would probably draw my weapon. At that time if they did anything, except about face, I would probably shoot to kill. I hope to not be in this situation.

In my case I would not be at Walmart at 1:00 AM and I would be driving a Chevy pick-up.

[cec]

There is what I would like to my response to be and what my response probably would be.

The response I would to have is the try to talk my way out of the situation or at least delay it long enough to remove myself and the others from the scene. Hopefully while I was attempting to talk my way out of this, a phone would be dialing 911. My goal would be to get out with no one hurt. I would not try to out bluff or tough talk back, rather keep an even tone and try to maintain an confident attitude. The final step would be drawing the gun while yelling for them to get the hell away (during the conversation I would have my hand near or resting on the holster). If the gun was drawn and the suspects ran off, I would still continue my 911 call, that way I can avoid the same individuals calling and reporting a crazy person with a gun at Wally World.

The response I would most likely have is to crap my pants

When I first thought about the response I would like to have, it sounded like a lot to go through, but recently I had an expierence where I may have had to defend myself and I was amazed at how fast I can think (despite what the wife says about my brain power).

Here was my senerio:

On a recent trip to a home center, I went to get the pickup and bring it to the loading area. As I approached I saw someone trying very hard to get into the truck. I moved my jacket aside, reached for the holster and yelled "HEY!!!". The gentlemen must have remembered an appointment he was late for and ran off.

In that short time I note that there was only one person near the truck, the number of people around, what was near my potentail target, and even if I was justified in shooting. I conclued that I was willing to pull the gun and hold the suspect but I wouldn't fire unless a direct threat to my life was made. The good news is that the decision was made for me.

I have had a car stolen before and even with how PO'ed I was at the thought of going through that again, I wouldn't shoot someone over my car.

[Deputy Dawg]

Originally Posted by Pistolenschutze

Is it better to say something like, "Hey man, back off, I'm not looking for trouble here?" Seriously, I would be very interested in your professional opinion on this Dawg. Thanks.

WOW someone wants my opinion i do not know where to start, all kidding aside I would not be overly agressive towards them or would i give them the allusion i was a sheepple either,I think your second response would be appropriate.It is too bad it has to be this way ,but even if the shooting is justified you still could find yourself in front of a Grand jury, Attorney fees ,time off of work etc. I hope if anyone of you ever find yourself in that situation there would be only one side of the story to be told, and it would be your side of the story.

[stash247]

Bearing in mind that lawsuits, by living criminals, over injuries occuring in commission of a crime, are usually far more expensive than those brought for 'wrongful death', should the shooting start, the point of aim, and duration of fire, seem obvious.
At the outset of such a confrontation, I would attempt to walk, talk, or run INTO THE LIGHT, making all the racket I could, to draw attention.
I own nothing worth dying over; least of all, a car or a wallet.
Rachel Ruth, my SO, on the other hand, I do not own, by any means, yet she will not be so molested, so long as I live.
Should this confrontation take an ugly, un escapable turn, in HER direction, see paragraph (1), above.
A pretty smart fellow once told me "The problems only start, when the shooting stops".
How much of your future time, money, maybe even freedom, is the sense of 'controlling the situation' worth? Would you give up three years to 'prove a point', to scum like this?
Give it some thought, today; do a 'dress rehearsal', in your mind, every day, and keep your eyes high. What you see, you can avoid.

[southernshooter]

I would draw and take aim. If they make any sudden movements goodbye. Wal-Marts usually have security cameras so that will help you prove the situation to the police

[delta13soultaker]

I guess I got to ask, but......what is the distance from myself to my vehicle? How far away are the "two young toughs"? Is there time to drive away or at least get in my vehicle?

If there is no time to drive away it would go something like...say very loud and clearly "Get away!" while drawing weapon and aiming while moving behind cover so as to be able to shoot from around it.(Engine compartments make better cover than car trunks/truck beds; concrete lightpole bases are best.) At a minumum if there is no time to get around cover, drop to a knee, preferably with back against cover.

If they rush an armed person who already has cover, they are dumb as two boxes of rocks! At any rate, maintain your aim from around the cover in case they want to split up and rush from two directions; engage near threat first.

Anyway...the best answer would be something like: Spot the threat with enough time to go back inside and have security go deal with it.

So tactically...verbal warning/show force/get a sight picture/seek cover.

Communication is the 1st key to teamwork, and teamwork is the 1st key to success, so I'd say at some point before the fact whoever is with you needs to generally know what you will do and what you expect them to do in a given situation. My girlfriend knows my night-time parking drill, which is to drive past my intended spot to check out the near area, then double-back to park. She also knows that on foot I avoid walking at right angles in parking lots, instead going diagnal so it's harder to anticipate what row I stop on (I learned that lesson in a Wal-mart parking lot in Texas). I've also explained to her that if I draw my weapon I'm either automatically going behind near cover or getting low to the ground.

On the legal end a good attorney could argue that anyone that would rush an armed person who is behind cover is very likely suicidal and prompted their own death through a series of intentional choices the shooter could not have avoided once begun.

Also, if possible I would very much like to have tried to get in my car before the shooting started. Having to assume a security camera may pick up the action, I want to be able to say I tried to flee. I want my statement to be, "We tried to drive away but they forced me to shoot before we could get inside. I want to talk to a lawyer." If not, "They cut us off from our car and pinned us where we couldn't flee. I want to talk to a lawyer."

I would not start the engine or even put the keys near the ignition. I don't want any appearance that I was in the car, lost my temper, and shot them up. "I was just trying to go home, but they attacked us too quickly."

[kikr]

I've got a 1001 questions about the scenario but I wont kill the thread. I'd have to say call for help, while attempting to talk them down. There is absolutely no indication that the situation has escalated to a deadly force scenario as of yet. I would have my hand discreetly placed on the grip of my weapon during the coversation though.

[kingjoey]

In a "no-see-um" (ie. no witnesses, non-public area) I've been partial to discretely removing the weapon from the holster and relocating it behind my back as to reduce my response time and raise the question about why my hand is behind my back without 'brandishing' a weapon. Each situation carries its own list of considerations however.

[LIKTOSHOOT]

I`m going to expound on 247`s comments and enter the arena you will most likely enter once you make the choice to shoot.

In court this is what I`m going after and will make you look very bad in the juries eyes----VERY BAD And right off the bat too. (Remember, a No Bill--does not stop a Civil Action and this is where you will be)

You went to Wal-mart at one o`clock in the morning armed and with your wife in tow. How much did you learn in CHL classes about what and what not to do??? I am in hopes everyone here can see the direction that can be taken from this........

This question always assumes "you are in this or that situation" part of good training and common sense is to "NOT" be in that situation---and most all of these senerio`s play out the same. Being somewhere at sometime or simply bumping someone. Sometimes I think a mental test is required prior to the issue of a CHL. And I will continue this road.

I also find that some folks who amazingly manage to get a license manage to show up at places they would never go, bolder than they were prior and visit late night places.

It would not be hard at all to make you the hunter instead of the hunted.


LTS