Need Info on Iver Johnson Hammerless Revolver

[b.goforth]

stu,
if the serial number D1473 is truly stamped on the bottom of the butt this is a early second model (first variation) manufactured in 1896. i will need to know the patent dates marked on the top of the barrel rib to confirm this. all second model safety automatic hammeless revolver were manufactured for black powder cartridge pressures and are not considered safe with modern ammo.
bill

[Embassy Marine]

Bob,

Thanks for the reply. It is indeed stamped D1473 on the butt. The letter number spacing looks like D 1 473.

The first line on the top of the barrel reads as follows:

IVER JOHNSON'S ARMS & CYCLE WORKS. FITCHBURG MASS. U.S.A (period missing)

Second line reads as follows:
(Missing P)AT'D APR.6.86. FEB.15.87. MAY 10.87. DEC.26.93 PAT'S PENDING

There are no other visible markings on the revolver. There is nothing under either grip.

I have never fired it or intend to fire it, given the information provided in this forum thread.

Thanks for the help.

Stu

[b.goforth]

stu,
this is a very early second model manufactured in 1896, confirmed by the patent date marking on the barrel top rib.
bill

[Durango]

To b.goforth,

Bill

Just joined and found interesting info regarding Iver Johnson guns. I have one with the following markings,

On the Barrel *Iver Johnsons Arms & Cycle Works* (Johnsons plural is accurate)
*Fitchburg Mass USA*

Under The Trigger Guard 640225 the 640_25 are deep stampings the first 2 is very light

On Bottom of the Handle Pat. Nov. 17, 08
Pats Pending

It was given to me with Winchester S&W 38 Cal Ammo

It has a 3.25" Barrel

Is this gun safe to fire modern ammo ie, 38 S&W 145 Grain Lead Ammo?

Upon further review... I removed the grips and found the following info stamped on the frame,

D 64025

It has a coil spring in the handle area.

Thank You in advance

Durango

[b.goforth]

durango,
i posted the information you seek on the other post you made about this handgun.
bill

[Durango]

Bill,

Received all on the other post.

Since this was my first time here and my first post, I was not sure that I had done it correctly on this site. I thought it might have posted as a reply to the previous message.

Thanks again for the info.

Bill

[deathxrenegade]

Bill,

While remodeling our basement, this revolver fell out of a cloth wraping from behind a workbench we ripped out. Had to have been there for years (at least 20).

Using that chart on your webpage I found the following

Along the top is (#1):
IVER JOHNSON'S ARMS & CYCLE WORKS.
FITCHBURG MASS. U.S.A
on two lines.

Pat. # on the side of the barrel ( #2)- hard to read but I can make out this (*=can't read it):
Apr.6.86. feb*****may10.87
****aug25.96. pat's pending

on the handle (#6) id what looks like the letter 'D' and 87921

barrel length is 3.25 inches

[b.goforth]

this is a second model safety automatic hammerless revolver. serial number D 87921 manufactured in 1902.

SECOND MODEL SAFETY AUTOMATIC HAMMERLESS REVOLVER
(Black Powder Cartridges)------------- -–1896-1908
LARGE FRAME AND SMALL FRAME VERSIONS USES HAMMER THE HAMMER ACTION: Double top post barrel latch, Hammer the Hammer action, nickel finish with blue optional, two frame sizes and three calibers. Hard rubber grip panels with Owls head at top. Calibers: small frame .22 rimfire with 7 rounds cylinder capacity, .32 centerfire with 5 rounds cylinder capacity; Standard barrel length: small frame 3 inches, large frame 3 ¼ inches; Weight: small frame with 3 inch barrel .22 rimfire 12 ½ ounces, .32 centerfire 13 ½ ounces, large frame with 3 ¼ inch barrel 17 ¾ ounces; Height: small frame 3 ¾ inches, large frame 3 7/8 inches; Frame length: small frame 4 3/16 inches, large frame 5 inches; Overall all length: small frame with 3 inch barrel 6 3/8 inches, large frame with 3 ¼ inch barrel 7 3/8 inches. Main serial number location on left side of grip frame grips must be removed to see. The Second Model features a double top post barrel latch, flat leaf hammer spring and two cross pins in the lower frame.
VALUE: 100%=$285 60%=$150
For revolvers equipped with Bourne Knuckleduster add 100%

bill

[Turtleink]

Hey b.goforth
u seem to be the expert in the Iver Johnsons. I may be purchasing a Hammerless IJ from a friend and I was hoping u could help me out with some questions.

The gun has the standard markings on top of the barrel: Iver Johnson Arms & Cycle Works Fitchburg Mass USA. On the bottom of the trigger guard it says 99415. Under the grip is says D99415. The owls are looking out not towards the barrel. The gun is blued and the cylinder has 5 chambers. The markings on the butt of the gun are rubbed off too bad to read. The measurement from the tip of the barrel to the cylinder is 3 1/4 inches.

The friend I'm looking at buying this from knows nothing about it, he had gotten it from an uncle. He believes it to be a .32 and had some .32 h and r magnum ammo for it.

What I'm wondering is, is this the third model? If so, is it then safe to use current ammo? And I'm really wondering if it is even a .32? And then is it .32S&W regular or long? And finally considering it is in pretty good condition and has what i believe to be a matching holster would $175 be a good price or somewhere around there?

Thank you so much for your time I appreciate any information I can get. I just really don't want to spend money on a gun I can't shoot.

Thanks
Ben

[deathxrenegade]

thanks bill. only question that i have now is what is a Bourne Knuckleduster. I feel like a pain but I know nothing about guns at all.

[b.goforth]

the bourne knucleduster was a grip adapter that was factory fitted to the second model safety automatic revolver, only about 12,000 out of 1,500,000 (hammer and hammerless) or so were factory fitted and serial numbered to the gun.

turtileink;
the grips are third model grips but to be sure this is actually a third model check the hammer spring. single flat leaf spring first and second model, third model coil spring

second model serial nuber D 99415 manufactured in 1902 (black powder)
third model serial number D 99415 manufactured in 1930 (smokeless powder)

large frame second model only manufactured in a 5 shot 38 S&W caliber.
large frame third model offered in a 5 shot 38 S&W caliber and a 6 shot 32 S&W Long.

the 32 H&R Magnum is a newer catridge (introduced 1984/85) and never offered in any iver johnson revolvers. give the 32 H&R Magnum cartridges to some one who has a modern revolver chambered for that cartridge do not try to fire them in this revolver.
value and information on second model is in the post above here is the third model information.
THIRD MODEL SAFETY AUTOMATIC HAMMERLESS REVOLVER
(Smokeless Powder Cartridges)-------------1909-1941
LARGE FRAME AND SMALL FRAME VERSIONS USES HAMMER THE HAMMER ACTION; Double top post barrel latch, with Hammer the Hammer action, nickel finish standard blue optional. Two frame sizes, four calibers, hard rubber grip panels with Owls head at top, two piece oversize hard rubber and one piece wood grips optional. Redesigned for smokeless powder. Standard barrel length: small frame 3 inches, large frame 3 ¼ inches; Calibers: small frame .22 rimfire with 7 rounds cylinder capacity, .32 centerfire with 5 rounds cylinder capacity, large frame .32 Special with 6 rounds cylinder capacity, .38 centerfire with 5 rounds cylinder capacity; Weight: small frame .22 rimfire with 3 inch barrel 13 ½ ounces, .32 centerfire with 3 inch barrel 14 ounces, large frame .32 Special with 3 ¼ inch barrel 19 ¼ ounces, .38 centerfire with 3 ¼ inch barrel 19 ounces; Height: small frame 3 ¾ inches, large frame 3 7/8 inches; Frame length: small frame 4 3/16 inches, large frame 5 inches; Overall length: small frame with 3 inch barrel 6 3/8 inches, large frame with 3 ¼ inch barrel 7 3/8 inches. Main serial number location on left side of grip frame grips must be removed to see. The Third Model features a double top post barrel latch, coil hammer spring and four cross pins in the lower frame.
VALUE: 100%=$260 60%=$125

bill

[Turtleink]

Bill thank you so much for your help. You truly are an asset to this forum. I was getting a little discouraged on finding information about these guns there just doesn't seem to be that much easily assessable information for them on the web. Thank you very much.

Ben

[b.goforth]

the net makes is earier and quicker to get information but unless you know the source may not be reliable. the best source on firearms is still the old fashion bound books. when i first showed an interest in firearms i was given the advice i should have at least as many books on firearms as i have actual firearms. i purchased firearms books before i was old enough to buy the firearms. i believe i have gone far beyond one book per firearm. the fact that there was not much in print on iver johnson firearms led me to writing my own books on them. the information in these books came from examing and recording information on ever iver johnson i came in contact with and most of these were examined at gun shows. so gun show are not only a place to buy firearms they are also a place to learn about them.
bill

[confederatemule]

A coupla days ago I bought an Iver Johnson pistol, from a pawn shop.

It is hammerless with a 3 inch barrel.

It is a top break, with the release on the left side only.

The number on the butt of the between the grips is "B 181 1".

{EDIT: I found no numbers nor letters after removing the grips. It has all of the usual I. J. information written on the top, but it is hard to read because of the combination of rust & old nickel plating.}

Is it black powder only? From what I have read in this thread, it is.

What year was it made?

Can I get ammo for it?

I am sure it is worth nothin, cause the finish is nickel and rust plated. But the grips are in very good shape. I gave $75.00 for it.

I bought it thinking it would make a good pocket gun, and it would, if I can get ammo.

Thanks for any answers.

Mule
-----------------------------------
"If you want to keep shooting, support the NRA and the Second Amendment Foundation."...??

"I ain't got nowher to go, nothin to do when I git there, and if'n I'da been in a hurry, I'da started yesterdy"...Mule

[tom52]

I'm trying to do some research for an elderly friend as to exactly what model a gun he inherited years ago is, when it might have been mfg., and what it might be worth; and what type of ammo it uses. The box says The H & R Bull Dog, rimfire, 32 short cartridges. It has a 3" barrel, holds 5 bullets and has an owl on the grip. On the top of the barrel is written : Iver Johnson arms & cycle works, Fitchburg, Mass. USA. The bottom of the grip has a number of patent dates from Apr. 6, 86 to Aug. 25, 96. The serial # found by removing the left grip is: F9939558. Thanks kindly for any assistance. tom

[b.goforth]

tom ,
i posted information about your revolver to your other post.

mule,
this is a first model safety automatic hammerless revolver manufactured in 1896.

FIRST MODEL SAFETY AUTOMATIC HAMMERLESS REVOLVER
(Black Powder Cartridges)--------------------1895-1896
LARGE FRAME AND SMALL FRAME VERSIONS USES HAMMER THE HAMMER ACTION: Single Top Post Barrel latch, finish, grip panels same as hammer model. Two frame sizes three calibers. Calibers: small frame .22 rimfire with 7 rounds cylinder capacity, .32 centerfire with 5 rounds cylinder capacity, large frame .38 centerfire with 5 rounds cylinder capacity; Standard barrel length same as hammer model; Weight: small frame with 3 inch barrel .22 rimfire 12 ½ ounces, .32 centerfire 13 ½ ounces, large frame with 3 ¼ inch barrel 17 ¾ ounces: Height: small frame 3 ¾ inches, large frame 3 7/8 inches: Frame length: small frame 4 3/16 inches, large frame 5 inches; Overall length: small frame 3 inch barrel 6 3/8 inches, large frame with 3 ¼ inch barrel 7 3/8 inches. Main serial number location on left side of grip frame grips must be removed to see. The First Model features a single top post barrel latch (release lever mounted on left side of top strap) and flat leaf hammer spring.
VALUE: 100%=$300 60%=$155

if you want a good pocket pistol get a third model (1909-1940) (smokeless ammo) hammerless and one with a 2 inch barrel would even be better.
bill

[LTH]

Hi silver-fox, I saw site surfing on the web and very interesting about .32 IJ.......... so joined and I pulled grand papa's .32 IJ out of stor and cleaned it up (was pass time for that) and here is my info .... serial # on frame under left grip U10539 and on bottom of trigger guard 10539, top of barrel .. Iver Johnson Arms & Cycle Works, leaf spring, trigger safety, owl looking at trigger,full shroud, barrel is 4", cyl is 25cm/15/16", and I ordered 3 box of .32 S&W black powder rounds to be made up by Gad Custom Cartridge (Bernold 715-748-0919) and I think he is going to use about 3 gr of bp so pressure is low and he said the case is so small about all it will take also ....... I will reply once I shoot it first time at range of how she does, prob will be 6 wks before I get out to the range .. I hope b.goforth reads this and comments, I will buy his book and he sure has the knowledge ........ LTH (Lucian)

[b.goforth]

LTH
second model small frame 32 S&W caliber safety automatic hammerless revolver serial number U10539 was manufactured in 1907.

SECOND MODEL SAFETY AUTOMATIC HAMMERLESS REVOLVER
(Black Powder Cartridges)------------- -–1896-1908
LARGE FRAME AND SMALL FRAME VERSIONS USES HAMMER THE HAMMER ACTION: Double top post barrel latch, Hammer the Hammer action, nickel finish with blue optional, two frame sizes and three calibers. Hard rubber grip panels with Owls head at top. Calibers: small frame .22 rimfire with 7 rounds cylinder capacity, .32 centerfire with 5 rounds cylinder capacity; Standard barrel length: small frame 3 inches, large frame 3 ¼ inches; Weight: small frame with 3 inch barrel .22 rimfire 12 ½ ounces, .32 centerfire 13 ½ ounces, large frame with 3 ¼ inch barrel 17 ¾ ounces; Height: small frame 3 ¾ inches, large frame 3 7/8 inches; Frame length: small frame 4 3/16 inches, large frame 5 inches; Overall all length: small frame with 3 inch barrel 6 3/8 inches, large frame with 3 ¼ inch barrel 7 3/8 inches. Main serial number location on left side of grip frame grips must be removed to see. The Second Model features a double top post barrel latch, flat leaf hammer spring and two cross pins in the lower frame.
VALUE: 100%=$285 60%=$150

[jaysinpa]

Bill,
I have an IJ .32 Safety Hammer, Nickle plated. Iver Johnson Arms & Cycle, Fitchburgh, MA. on the top strap. SN N(?) 40963 under the grips, and PAT APR6 86 line one May 10.87 MAR.13.88 AUG line two 25.96 PAT'S PENDING line three on the butt. What can you tell me about this gun? Also, do you have any schematics I can use to put it back together?

[b.goforth]

the letter code N was used in 1906. i have parts drawing and list in my iver johnson book available from the publisher listed below, but few of them could be called a schematic.

bill

[mgwolo1]

I have an Iver Johnson.32 Top Break ...Patent June16.96Aug..It was Great grandpa's revolver that he kept in the cash register at his Speakeasy during prohibition.

The trigger mechanism is not working and I will need some parts and a schematic.

I don't believe it has ever been fired. But I know many a grandchild has played with it over the years. (and great grandchild)

Any help would be appreciated.

[IJOwner99]

I'm another IJ hammerless owner looking for information. I've read the previous postings, but none of them seem to match my revolver. It has the normal "Iver Johnson's Arms & Cycle Works (small x)" and "Fitchberg Mass U. S. A." on top of barrel.
Bottom of trigger guard shows "5553" and bottom of Butt "PAT JUNE 16 96, AUG 23 9(8 ?)" and ?pt .16.C4 PATS PENDING". On frame under left grip, "D 5 6 0 0". Coil spring in frame under grip. Is this sufficent to identify the model? Barrel length is 3.25"

[hrf]

Originally Posted by IJOwner99

I'm another IJ hammerless owner looking for information. I've read the previous postings, but none of them seem to match my revolver. It has the normal "Iver Johnson's Arms & Cycle Works (small x)" and "Fitchberg Mass U. S. A." on top of barrel.
Bottom of trigger guard shows "5553" and bottom of Butt "PAT JUNE 16 96, AUG 23 9(8 ?)" and ?pt .16.C4 PATS PENDING". On frame under left grip, "D 5 6 0 0". Coil spring in frame under grip. Is this sufficent to identify the model? Barrel length is 3.25"

You have a 3rd model large frame hammerless made in 1910, with a mismatched trigger guard. Caliber will be either .32 S&W Long or .38 S&W. The last two patent dates are Aug 25 96 and Sept 4 04.

[fuzebox40]

Originally Posted by mgwolo1

I have an Iver Johnson.32 Top Break ...Patent June16.96Aug..It was Great grandpa's revolver that he kept in the cash register at his Speakeasy during prohibition.

The trigger mechanism is not working and I will need some parts and a schematic.

I don't believe it has ever been fired. But I know many a grandchild has played with it over the years. (and great grandchild)

Any help would be appreciated.

mgwolo1: Generaly you'll get better response by starting a new thread rather than going pigyback on one this old but let me know if you still need a schematic. You can PM me if you like with your e address. Small Frame Safety Hammerless Automatic, second model. Manufactured between 1906 and 1908 depending on letter code and serial no.. "Designed for black powder cartridges".

[hrf]

Originally Posted by mgwolo1

The trigger mechanism is not working and I will need some parts and a schematic.

In the photos it appears the trigger pin is missing, which would certainly mess up the trigger function. Easily replaced with a nail, broken drill bit, etc. of right diameter.