Biplanes in WWII... - The Firearms Forum

polishshooter · 04-23-2006, 09:00 PM

How many Biplanes saw frontline combat service in WWII? (1939-45, if we consider the start to be 1937 or 1931 we would have TONS...)

I can think of about 6 total, if you consider the Swordfish/Albacore as one.

SOC Seagull, US
Gloster Gladiator, RAF/Fleet Air Arm
Fairey Swordfish/Albacore, FAA
Supermarine Walrus (Is there a trend with the Brits?) Coastal Command
PO-2, Russian
Fiat (Ansaldo?) Italy (Not sure of this one, but SEEM to remember pics of it in the Desert...)

Was there any more?

Pistolenschutze · 04-23-2006, 09:16 PM

Didn't the Poles use some old bi-planes during the German invasion, Polish? I seem to remember that they had relatively little success against the 109s for some strange reason.

It is an interesting sidelight to history that the old Swordfish torpedo planes that flew against the Bismarck in May 1941 actually achieved success because they were so outdated. The German AAA was designed to track modern, fast-moving aircraft and had a difficult time hitting the Swordfish. One lucky hit on Bismarck's rudder and all the German ship could do was wait until half the British Home Fleet showed up to turn her into scrap metal.

polishshooter · 04-23-2006, 11:47 PM

No, the PZL P11a and PZL P11c were both high gull wing, open cockpit, tough little monoplanes that actually DID have slight success against JU-88s...

MOST of the Polish Air Force got destroyed on the ground, but there was at least ONE sortie where two got off the ground, and eluded the 109s flying cover and actually disrupted a Luftwaffe raid, shooting down several JU-88s before being driven off...in fact, I actually have a Heller model kit in front of me right now that my son and I never got around to putting together, that I might just have to do, it's BEEN awhile since I did one, like 15 years ago! The instructions actually say "The Polish Air Force fought desperately,and inflicted heavy losses on the Germans." (And we KNOW model companies USUALLY have the facts!)

But it also says after the Poles capitulated, the Germans took the P11s into service as night fighters and trainers...

And the Poles ACTUALLY had a couple of squadrons of very modern twin engine medium bombers that was pretty advanced for its time, the Elk, supposedly 312mph with like 1000kg of bombs, but NONE of those made it off the ground, the rest of the Polish AF was pretty obsolete though...

Pistolenschutze · 04-24-2006, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by polishshooter

No, the PZL P11a and PZL P11c were both high gull wing, open cockpit, tough little monoplanes that actually DID have slight success against JU-88s...

Polish, is it really true that the battle cry of the Polish Air Force in 1939 began with "In nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti . . ." (In the name of the Father . . .)? I was just wondering.

polishshooter · 04-24-2006, 08:58 AM

ACTUALLY, since the "Polish National Church" was (is?) about the only "breakaway" church that never lost it's "recogniton" from Rome, It probably WAS said, only in Polish, with a few "holettas" thrown in to boot!...

The biggest problems were probably the rosary and scapulet getting tangled up with the throttle and and the little plastic statue of St. Stanislaus blocking the gunsight...

JohnK3 · 04-24-2006, 05:29 PM

Russian Polikarpov I-153

polishshooter · 04-24-2006, 07:23 PM

Was that the "Mosca?" The main Russian fighter in Spain? I guess that would have seen action at the beginning, I forgot about it, thanks John...

Pistolenschutze · 04-25-2006, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by polishshooter

The biggest problems were probably the rosary and scapulet getting tangled up with the throttle and and the little plastic statue of St. Stanislaus blocking the gunsight...

I can see where that might cause a minor distraction! I heard Patton forbid the M4 tankers from wearing any sort of religious medal around their necks when Tiger tanks were in the neighborhood. I mean, after all, when your tank's on fire from an 88 hit, the chain might get caught on something holding up your escape!

Pistolenschutze · 04-25-2006, 12:12 AM

All kidding aside, the Poles fought well and valiantly, Polish. The German onslaught was simply too powerful for any small, relatively poor country like Poland to withstand for more than a few weeks. There is some interesting stuff about the Polish resistance after the surrender. The most interesting incident, I think, was the Jewish resistance in Warsaw.

Xracer · 04-25-2006, 08:26 AM

The Fiat CR.32 was used during the Spanish Civil War and in North Africa, and it's slightly more advanced brother, the CR.42 "Falco" was used against Allied forces in the invasion of Sicily.

And let's not forget those vailiant Gloster Gladiators, "Faith", "Hope", & "Charity" during the Battle of Malta.

And....the all-time "Champion", the greatest of them all, "Stringbags"....the Fairy Swordfish, which became operational in 1936 and was still being manufactured until August 1944. It was still in front-line duty until the end of the war*, and continued in second-line training duties until Summer 1946.

*The last operational mission of the Fleet Air Arm Swordfish was flown on 28 June 1945.

polishshooter · 04-25-2006, 07:59 PM

Hey X, I believe they flew that last carrier mission against the airfields in Norway in April 45, and were escorted by FAA Wildcats! And that might have been the flight that the FM-2s smoked the 109s and chased them away after downing 5 or 6 with no losses...

I thought of you again today, X, when I crossed the "Salamonie" river today, wasn't there an oiler called the USS Salamonie too?

PS, I read an interesting "Polish Joke" in the Ivan's War book last night...that was apparently popular in Poland after the "liberation..."

"A little bird fell out of the sky into a fresh cowpat.
He was rescued by a passing cat.

The moral of the story is the person that pulls you out of the sh!t is not necessarily your friend."

JohnK3 · 04-26-2006, 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by polishshooter

Was that the "Mosca?" The main Russian fighter in Spain? I guess that would have seen action at the beginning, I forgot about it, thanks John...

The one used in Spain was the I-15, the predecessor.

They were both known as "Chaika" or "Seagull."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polikarpov_I-153

The I-16, or "Mosca" as it was called by the Republicans, was a monoplane highly reminiscent of the GeeBee. Short fuselage, very fast, but went into a spin easily. Fortunately, it was easy to take out of a spin, almost as easy. The I-15/153 were hard to get them to spin, and damn near impossible to get out of a spin, once you were in one.

Xracer · 04-26-2006, 07:28 AM

Polish.....there was, indeed, a U.S.S. Salamonie (A0-26) and we operated with her in the Med in '56-'57. She was an old pre-WWII (1940) T2 type Oiler and one of the few still operating then.

She was finally deactivated in the late '60's and was probably the oldest Oiler (and one of the oldest ships), still in the Navy at that time.

She was old and slow, but she still did her job......sorta like those wonderful old "Stringbags".

polishshooter · 04-26-2006, 09:28 AM

You were on the Mississinewa, right? That's kind of funny that they kept the two oilers together, since the two actual rivers generally parallel each other, about 10 or 20 miles apart across East central Indiana!

Although, I think one flows east and the other west...both have been dammed, and there is now both a Salamonie and a Mississinewa Reservoir, which are both state parks too....I haven't been to either, but there is supposed to be great walleye, sauger and saugeye fishing in the Salamonie....and I've never caught a sauger or saugeye yet.

Was there a USS Wabash, "Tippecanoe", or "White" too? We have LOTS of "little" Indian rivers in Indiana!

And yeah, John now I remember the Mosca....that's the one the black American pilot flying for the Republicans used to beat Mussolini's son in the dogfight "duel" during the Spanish Civil War...what was that pilots name? I'll have to dig out my "Ragged Rugged Warriors..."

Xracer · 04-27-2006, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by polishshooter

Was there a USS Wabash, "Tippecanoe", or "White" too? We have LOTS of "little" Indian rivers in Indiana!

Well......definitely not a "White". Oilers were named after Indian-named rivers.....but there wouldn't have been a "Wabash", because that was also the name of a small city and Patrol Craft were named after small cities.

There are (were) many others named after rivers though (maybe some of them in Indiana)...Mississinewa, Neosho, Truckee, Chuckawan, Monongahela, etc.

04-23-2006, 09:00 PM	#1
polishshooter Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Indiana Contributor Posts: 7,859	Biplanes in WWII... How many Biplanes saw frontline combat service in WWII? (1939-45, if we consider the start to be 1937 or 1931 we would have TONS...) I can think of about 6 total, if you consider the Swordfish/Albacore as one. SOC Seagull, US Gloster Gladiator, RAF/Fleet Air Arm Fairey Swordfish/Albacore, FAA Supermarine Walrus (Is there a trend with the Brits?) Coastal Command PO-2, Russian Fiat (Ansaldo?) Italy (Not sure of this one, but SEEM to remember pics of it in the Desert...) Was there any more? __________________ The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living. --> Last edited by polishshooter; 04-23-2006 at 09:12 PM..

04-23-2006, 09:16 PM	#2
Pistolenschutze Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 13,094	Re: Biplanes in WWII... Didn't the Poles use some old bi-planes during the German invasion, Polish? I seem to remember that they had relatively little success against the 109s for some strange reason. It is an interesting sidelight to history that the old Swordfish torpedo planes that flew against the Bismarck in May 1941 actually achieved success because they were so outdated. The German AAA was designed to track modern, fast-moving aircraft and had a difficult time hitting the Swordfish. One lucky hit on Bismarck's rudder and all the German ship could do was wait until half the British Home Fleet showed up to turn her into scrap metal. __________________ --Pistolenschutze (Pistol Shooter)

04-23-2006, 11:47 PM	#3
polishshooter Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Indiana Contributor Posts: 7,859	Re: Biplanes in WWII... No, the PZL P11a and PZL P11c were both high gull wing, open cockpit, tough little monoplanes that actually DID have slight success against JU-88s... MOST of the Polish Air Force got destroyed on the ground, but there was at least ONE sortie where two got off the ground, and eluded the 109s flying cover and actually disrupted a Luftwaffe raid, shooting down several JU-88s before being driven off...in fact, I actually have a Heller model kit in front of me right now that my son and I never got around to putting together, that I might just have to do, it's BEEN awhile since I did one, like 15 years ago! The instructions actually say "The Polish Air Force fought desperately,and inflicted heavy losses on the Germans." (And we KNOW model companies USUALLY have the facts!) But it also says after the Poles capitulated, the Germans took the P11s into service as night fighters and trainers... And the Poles ACTUALLY had a couple of squadrons of very modern twin engine medium bombers that was pretty advanced for its time, the Elk, supposedly 312mph with like 1000kg of bombs, but NONE of those made it off the ground, the rest of the Polish AF was pretty obsolete though... __________________ The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living.

04-24-2006, 08:58 AM	#5
polishshooter Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Indiana Contributor Posts: 7,859	Re: Biplanes in WWII... ACTUALLY, since the "Polish National Church" was (is?) about the only "breakaway" church that never lost it's "recogniton" from Rome, It probably WAS said, only in Polish, with a few "holettas" thrown in to boot!... The biggest problems were probably the rosary and scapulet getting tangled up with the throttle and and the little plastic statue of St. Stanislaus blocking the gunsight... __________________ The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living.

04-24-2006, 05:29 PM	#6
JohnK3 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 1,636	Re: Biplanes in WWII... Russian Polikarpov I-153

04-24-2006, 07:23 PM	#7
polishshooter Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Indiana Contributor Posts: 7,859	Re: Biplanes in WWII... Was that the "Mosca?" The main Russian fighter in Spain? I guess that would have seen action at the beginning, I forgot about it, thanks John... __________________ The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living.

04-25-2006, 12:12 AM	#9
Pistolenschutze Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 13,094	Re: Biplanes in WWII... All kidding aside, the Poles fought well and valiantly, Polish. The German onslaught was simply too powerful for any small, relatively poor country like Poland to withstand for more than a few weeks. There is some interesting stuff about the Polish resistance after the surrender. The most interesting incident, I think, was the Jewish resistance in Warsaw. __________________ --Pistolenschutze (Pistol Shooter) Last edited by Pistolenschutze; 04-25-2006 at 12:18 AM..

04-25-2006, 08:26 AM	#10
Xracer TFF Admin Staff Mediator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Minn-eeee-sota, ya, sure, you bet! Posts: 9,144	Re: Biplanes in WWII... The Fiat CR.32 was used during the Spanish Civil War and in North Africa, and it's slightly more advanced brother, the CR.42 "Falco" was used against Allied forces in the invasion of Sicily. And let's not forget those vailiant Gloster Gladiators, "Faith", "Hope", & "Charity" during the Battle of Malta. And....the all-time "Champion", the greatest of them all, "Stringbags"....the Fairy Swordfish, which became operational in 1936 and was still being manufactured until August 1944. It was still in front-line duty until the end of the war, and continued in second-line training duties until Summer 1946. The last operational mission of the Fleet Air Arm Swordfish was flown on 28 June 1945.

04-25-2006, 07:59 PM	#11
polishshooter Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Indiana Contributor Posts: 7,859	Re: Biplanes in WWII... Hey X, I believe they flew that last carrier mission against the airfields in Norway in April 45, and were escorted by FAA Wildcats! And that might have been the flight that the FM-2s smoked the 109s and chased them away after downing 5 or 6 with no losses... I thought of you again today, X, when I crossed the "Salamonie" river today, wasn't there an oiler called the USS Salamonie too? PS, I read an interesting "Polish Joke" in the Ivan's War book last night...that was apparently popular in Poland after the "liberation..." "A little bird fell out of the sky into a fresh cowpat. He was rescued by a passing cat. The moral of the story is the person that pulls you out of the sh!t is not necessarily your friend." __________________ The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living.

04-26-2006, 07:28 AM	#13
Xracer TFF Admin Staff Mediator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Minn-eeee-sota, ya, sure, you bet! Posts: 9,144	Re: Biplanes in WWII... Polish.....there was, indeed, a U.S.S. Salamonie (A0-26) and we operated with her in the Med in '56-'57. She was an old pre-WWII (1940) T2 type Oiler and one of the few still operating then. She was finally deactivated in the late '60's and was probably the oldest Oiler (and one of the oldest ships), still in the Navy at that time. She was old and slow, but she still did her job......sorta like those wonderful old "Stringbags".

04-26-2006, 09:28 AM	#14
polishshooter Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Indiana Contributor Posts: 7,859	Re: Biplanes in WWII... You were on the Mississinewa, right? That's kind of funny that they kept the two oilers together, since the two actual rivers generally parallel each other, about 10 or 20 miles apart across East central Indiana! Although, I think one flows east and the other west...both have been dammed, and there is now both a Salamonie and a Mississinewa Reservoir, which are both state parks too....I haven't been to either, but there is supposed to be great walleye, sauger and saugeye fishing in the Salamonie....and I've never caught a sauger or saugeye yet. Was there a USS Wabash, "Tippecanoe", or "White" too? We have LOTS of "little" Indian rivers in Indiana! And yeah, John now I remember the Mosca....that's the one the black American pilot flying for the Republicans used to beat Mussolini's son in the dogfight "duel" during the Spanish Civil War...what was that pilots name? I'll have to dig out my "Ragged Rugged Warriors..." __________________ The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living. Last edited by polishshooter; 04-26-2006 at 09:31 AM..