Gun vs. Knife

Rob Longenecker · 09-08-2006, 01:10 PM

“Don’t Bring a Gun to a Knifefight?”

Sure, you better bring a gun, bring a clear mind and the will to act so you don’t get cut.

Yes, I know. The old joke is about "don’t bring a knife to a gunfight."

This is no joke as you’ll see here: http://tinyurl.com/l8yk9 *WARNING* - Not for the squeamish.

inplanotx · 09-08-2006, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Longnecker

This is no joke as you’ll see here:

Maybe you should have looked harder!

Quote:

Originally Posted by tinyurl.com

I received this from a contact I know but can’t verify the details 100%, so take it with a grain of salt.

If you take this one step further and look at snopes, you will find it is a hoax. It was supposedly about an American airman attacked in a bar in Korea. Here is the snopes edition.

http://www.snopes.com/photos/gruesome/kunsan.asp

Rob Longenecker · 09-08-2006, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inplanotx

Maybe you should have looked harder!

I called the police officer who sent me the story. There was a dead end.
I posted a disclaimer but the information was still valuable.
How would you have handled it?

inplanotx · 09-08-2006, 01:51 PM

If you take this one step further and look at snopes, you will find it is a hoax. It was supposedly about an American airman attacked in a bar in Korea. Here is the snopes edition.

http://www.snopes.com/photos/gruesome/kunsan.asp

Rob Longenecker · 09-08-2006, 02:02 PM

You're right. Post altered. The pictures still get my attention and illustrate the point.

inplanotx · 09-08-2006, 03:39 PM

Yes, they are gruesome to say the least. This happens a lot when an amazing story comes to us on the internet. We mainly use snopes to veryify such stories.

Welcome aboard, Rob. Glad to have you with us. Please do not let this keep you from posting. I think most of us have gone through this at least once.

Rob Longenecker · 09-08-2006, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inplanotx

Yes, they are gruesome to say the least. This happens a lot when an amazing story comes to us on the internet. We mainly use snopes to veryify such stories.

Welcome aboard, Rob. Glad to have you with us. Please do not let this keep you from posting. I think most of us have gone through this at least once.

I'm glad to know there are guard rails on the internet superhighway to keep me from crashing into the trees at the side of the road.

Crpdeth · 09-08-2006, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Longenecker

How would you have handled it?

I would have died, I dont carry my concealed weapon into any establishment that derives any of it's annual income through the sale of alcohol.

Crpdeth

Ursus · 09-08-2006, 05:52 PM

So what? Would it be safer to carry a knife to fend a knife wielder?

Rob Longenecker · 09-08-2006, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ursus

So what? Would it be safer to carry a knife to fend a knife wielder?

So, you probably wouldn't make the mistake, that some might, of thinking that because they have a gun, they don't have to fear a person with a knife.
The point was to create some awareness and discussion.

rondba · 09-08-2006, 08:32 PM

I have seen the effect a man who knows how to use a knife can make. It made a real impact on me both the times I saw what a man with a knife can do. A bullet may do some damage,but a sharp knife can gut a man faster than you can draw a gun. Bottom line is if an attacker gets close enough to use a knife the guy with the gun will lose.

southernshooter · 09-08-2006, 10:35 PM

Welcome Rob and Ron

Rob Longenecker · 09-08-2006, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popgunner

Yes I think manners were forgotten.

Welcome

Thanks!

Crpdeth · 09-09-2006, 09:51 AM

Rob

Thanks for the thought stimulation, of course you are right a knife is a very dangerous weapon and can be presented in a fight very quickly...This discussion is not a new one to CCL holders. I think the general consensus though, is that were going to carry something. I'd never display a knife in a fight anyway, nor would I trade in my .357 Mag or .45 ACP for a blade.

Keep some distance between you and the bad guy, watch his demenor and his hands with your peripheral...Hey you are right a knife is fast, my favorite knife in my moderate collection is a spring assisted custom locker that is extreamly fast, razor sharp and deadly as hell, but what would I do with it against 4 thugs? How about the story in the news lately about the disgruntled grocery store employee with the butcher knife running around slashing other employees? How would I deal with that with a 9" blade? The bad guy and myself would be on an even kill, I would be left hopeing this fool has zero martial arts training because I've had very little...The guy that saved the day (and a few lives) pointed a .9mm pistol at the guys chest and the idiot wised up and dropped the knife and stood there untill the LEOs showed up.

Crpdeth

Ursus · 09-09-2006, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Longenecker

So, you probably wouldn't make the mistake, that some might, of thinking that because they have a gun, they don't have to fear a person with a knife.
The point was to create some awareness and discussion.

You are right, is a common mistake to think that if you carry a gun, you have to fear no one. I think I understand that you are trying to stablish the point that a knife is fast and deadly. Agree on that. My point is that a gun is still the best defense against knife, guns, or bare hands. When you say that a knife wielder can get you before you have the chance to draw a gun, you're right. The same is true if you are carrying a knife or are a martial arts practioner, so the gun is still the best defense.
And be wellcome to TFF!!!

southernshooter · 09-09-2006, 10:15 PM

Also when a attacker or mugger or whatever the situation is whne he sticks you their is no sound you can be their a while with no police no EMT or help of any kind

delta13soultaker · 09-24-2006, 12:41 AM

Just my .01 from the edged weapon training I accumulated over the last decade.

1. Sharp things have been killing people since their have been people.

2. There's a lot of speculation, contemplation, and misconceptions about edged weapon combat...but all have some truth, if just a little. If you listen to every doctrine/principle/study, you will notice contradictions...because if it could've happened, it has and people love to declare gospel with the first thing they see work. (The only gospel is somewhere in #1)

3. Have a tool that fits the technique and a technique that fits the task. (Don't develope a technique around a weapon; get a weapon that suits the technique i.e. if you chop don't use a dagger; if you stab don't use a razor etc. Have a technique that applies to the threat i.e. are you trying to survive an attack or be a ninja assassin? lol.)

4. Proper grip is verified by wounds inflicted and weapon retained. (It's not an improper grip if it worked.)

5. Everywhere I've been, that rule about a healthy adult male being able to cross 7 yards in +-1 second and delivering a deadly/incapacitating strike with a blade has been explained, demonstrated, picked apart, analyzed, practiced, coached, battle-drilled and beat to death; it's usually quoted from some FBI or major LE agency something or other. I hold it to be a fact. Inside a room...a trench...or a couple parking spaces...a man with a knife can do it in that distance in about 1 second, 2 seconds easily. (A fast draw from a holster and range style aiming is about...3-4 seconds?) (((Protecting your vitals should be part of your combat quick draw in a knife attack!!!)))

6. One transitional training I went through began every single morning with conditioning drills that usually involved struggling one-on-one for a single kill point scored with a mock knife (red permanent Sharpie marker). Every morning you had to start with yesterdays marks gone. It's humbling to wash off mock knife wounds every damn night.

7. If you survive 100 knife attacks...99 will involve stitches for you. (see#15) Other people live through spectacular fights without a scratch...you are not other people.

8. GI insect repellent lotion removes red Sharpie from skin better than soap.

9. I was taught to stab. To stab upwards to get under/bypass bones. Straight in to maximize wound channel. Stabs are more deadly than slashes. (There's 40 ways to skin a bobcat.)

10. I was taught to avoid stabbing; saving for very deliberate attacks to very specific points. Stabs can be stopped by anything, including a shirt button, cell phone, ammunition, bone, jewelry and anything you could carry. Eyeballs and throats are allegedly okay to stab. Slashes incapacitate better than stabs. (There's 400 ways to skin a bobcat.)

11. Big knives chop off limbs. Some bowie-blade style techniques, once mastered, will chop a man down.

12. An ax/E-tool to back of head/neck is 100% better idea than the Rambo headlock throat cut move.

13. Physical strength/reflexes/mentality are very very very important in an edged weapon attack. Alertness will let you slip a little in one of those areas, but only one, never more.

14. Knife fights and CQ gun fights go to the ground equally fast.

15a. If you are serious about surviving an edged weapon attack...have appropriate emergency medical training. Learn emergency self aid/take classes. Stop blood loss/prevent shock are the two you really need. (Start aid before EMS gets to you) Also, treating blood loss and shock are required to survive gunshot, car crashes, accidents etc...so you may help yourself or someone you know in ways nobody could ever guess. (Learn to use a pressure dressing and stiptic powder and keep it in your car/briefcase etc.)

15b. If you are serious about surviving an edged weapon attack...train to survive the initial assault (as worse case where you failed to detect attack). Protect your vitals and live long enough to fight(with hands, blade, gun...keys etc). Fight (train)without one extremity, on the ground, against the wall, on your back, under stress...and commit to muscle memory.

Crpdeth · 09-24-2006, 08:21 AM

Very nice Delta

I especially like #13

I guess this topic has been disected in the CCW community so many times that it's easy to grow bored with it, your post was a refreshing break from uneducated opinions, which is about all most of us have to go on..

Crpdeth

Enzo_Guy · 09-24-2006, 04:13 PM

I have more experience with knives than guns. I can say that knives are espcially more dangerous to police officers as a knife is capable of piercing kevlar easier than people might think. I've had a few occaisions where I've avoided a fight just by brandishing a knife, so in a state where CCW is restricted to law enforcement the knife is better than nothing.

southernshooter · 09-24-2006, 10:05 PM

You can get in more trouble for waving a knive rather than a firearm. A knife is an extension of you body and you will stab someone before you shoot someone

Enzo_Guy · 09-29-2006, 05:04 PM

Waving a knife is a couple years at most, pulling a gun in Maryland (and this is on top of the charges I get for not having a license to have thegun) is considered threatening with a deadly weapon. Police here tend to overlook knife charges, but being between the murder capitals of the USA handguns and driving laws are the two most enforced things.

Red Neck64 · 09-30-2006, 02:14 PM

I have no N.Y.S. CCW but I do carry a Colt 38 Cobra.I have no intent on harming anyone,but if a criminal is intent on harming me or ones I love I will shoot.If I can walk away and disappear I will,if I am arrested so be it I'll have the opportunity to tell my story to a jury.Better then me being dead or worse yet seeing someone I love dead from the act of a SB.

09-08-2006, 01:51 PM	#4
inplanotx Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 8,897	Re: Gun vs. Knife If you take this one step further and look at snopes, you will find it is a hoax. It was supposedly about an American airman attacked in a bar in Korea. Here is the snopes edition. http://www.snopes.com/photos/gruesome/kunsan.asp __________________

09-08-2006, 02:02 PM	#5
Rob Longenecker Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 8	Re: Gun vs. Knife You're right. Post altered. The pictures still get my attention and illustrate the point. Last edited by Rob Longenecker; 09-08-2006 at 02:14 PM..

09-08-2006, 03:39 PM	#6
inplanotx Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 8,897	Re: Gun vs. Knife Yes, they are gruesome to say the least. This happens a lot when an amazing story comes to us on the internet. We mainly use snopes to veryify such stories. Welcome aboard, Rob. Glad to have you with us. Please do not let this keep you from posting. I think most of us have gone through this at least once. __________________

09-08-2006, 05:52 PM	#9
Ursus Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: El Salvador, Central America. Posts: 1,030	Re: Gun vs. Knife So what? Would it be safer to carry a knife to fend a knife wielder? __________________ SI VIS PACEM, PARABELLUM.

09-08-2006, 08:32 PM	#11
rondba Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Arlington TX Posts: 33	Re: Gun vs. Knife I have seen the effect a man who knows how to use a knife can make. It made a real impact on me both the times I saw what a man with a knife can do. A bullet may do some damage,but a sharp knife can gut a man faster than you can draw a gun. Bottom line is if an attacker gets close enough to use a knife the guy with the gun will lose.

09-08-2006, 01:10 PM	#1
Rob Longenecker Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 8	Gun vs. Knife “Don’t Bring a Gun to a Knifefight?” Sure, you better bring a gun, bring a clear mind and the will to act so you don’t get cut. Yes, I know. The old joke is about "don’t bring a knife to a gunfight." This is no joke as you’ll see here: http://tinyurl.com/l8yk9 WARNING - Not for the squeamish. -->

09-08-2006, 10:35 PM	#12
southernshooter Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Deep South Mississippi Posts: 5,943	Re: Gun vs. Knife Welcome Rob and Ron __________________ Only you can see this

09-09-2006, 09:51 AM	#14
Crpdeth Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Location: Location Contributor Posts: 8,247	Re: Gun vs. Knife Rob Thanks for the thought stimulation, of course you are right a knife is a very dangerous weapon and can be presented in a fight very quickly...This discussion is not a new one to CCL holders. I think the general consensus though, is that were going to carry something. I'd never display a knife in a fight anyway, nor would I trade in my .357 Mag or .45 ACP for a blade. Keep some distance between you and the bad guy, watch his demenor and his hands with your peripheral...Hey you are right a knife is fast, my favorite knife in my moderate collection is a spring assisted custom locker that is extreamly fast, razor sharp and deadly as hell, but what would I do with it against 4 thugs? How about the story in the news lately about the disgruntled grocery store employee with the butcher knife running around slashing other employees? How would I deal with that with a 9" blade? The bad guy and myself would be on an even kill, I would be left hopeing this fool has zero martial arts training because I've had very little...The guy that saved the day (and a few lives) pointed a .9mm pistol at the guys chest and the idiot wised up and dropped the knife and stood there untill the LEOs showed up. Crpdeth __________________ Our greatest pretenses are built up not to hide the evil and the ugly in us, but our emptiness. The hardest thing to hide is something that is not there. ~Eric Hoffer

09-09-2006, 10:15 PM	#16
southernshooter Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Deep South Mississippi Posts: 5,943	Re: Gun vs. Knife Also when a attacker or mugger or whatever the situation is whne he sticks you their is no sound you can be their a while with no police no EMT or help of any kind __________________ Only you can see this

09-24-2006, 12:41 AM	#17
delta13soultaker Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Depends on Uncle Sam's whim every 3 yrs. Posts: 2,948	Re: Gun vs. Knife Just my .01 from the edged weapon training I accumulated over the last decade. 1. Sharp things have been killing people since their have been people. 2. There's a lot of speculation, contemplation, and misconceptions about edged weapon combat...but all have some truth, if just a little. If you listen to every doctrine/principle/study, you will notice contradictions...because if it could've happened, it has and people love to declare gospel with the first thing they see work. (The only gospel is somewhere in #1) 3. Have a tool that fits the technique and a technique that fits the task. (Don't develope a technique around a weapon; get a weapon that suits the technique i.e. if you chop don't use a dagger; if you stab don't use a razor etc. Have a technique that applies to the threat i.e. are you trying to survive an attack or be a ninja assassin? lol.) 4. Proper grip is verified by wounds inflicted and weapon retained. (It's not an improper grip if it worked.) 5. Everywhere I've been, that rule about a healthy adult male being able to cross 7 yards in +-1 second and delivering a deadly/incapacitating strike with a blade has been explained, demonstrated, picked apart, analyzed, practiced, coached, battle-drilled and beat to death; it's usually quoted from some FBI or major LE agency something or other. I hold it to be a fact. Inside a room...a trench...or a couple parking spaces...a man with a knife can do it in that distance in about 1 second, 2 seconds easily. (A fast draw from a holster and range style aiming is about...3-4 seconds?) (((Protecting your vitals should be part of your combat quick draw in a knife attack!!!))) 6. One transitional training I went through began every single morning with conditioning drills that usually involved struggling one-on-one for a single kill point scored with a mock knife (red permanent Sharpie marker). Every morning you had to start with yesterdays marks gone. It's humbling to wash off mock knife wounds every damn night. 7. If you survive 100 knife attacks...99 will involve stitches for you. (see#15) Other people live through spectacular fights without a scratch...you are not other people. 8. GI insect repellent lotion removes red Sharpie from skin better than soap. 9. I was taught to stab. To stab upwards to get under/bypass bones. Straight in to maximize wound channel. Stabs are more deadly than slashes. (There's 40 ways to skin a bobcat.) 10. I was taught to avoid stabbing; saving for very deliberate attacks to very specific points. Stabs can be stopped by anything, including a shirt button, cell phone, ammunition, bone, jewelry and anything you could carry. Eyeballs and throats are allegedly okay to stab. Slashes incapacitate better than stabs. (There's 400 ways to skin a bobcat.) 11. Big knives chop off limbs. Some bowie-blade style techniques, once mastered, will chop a man down. 12. An ax/E-tool to back of head/neck is 100% better idea than the Rambo headlock throat cut move. 13. Physical strength/reflexes/mentality are very very very important in an edged weapon attack. Alertness will let you slip a little in one of those areas, but only one, never more. 14. Knife fights and CQ gun fights go to the ground equally fast. 15a. If you are serious about surviving an edged weapon attack...have appropriate emergency medical training. Learn emergency self aid/take classes. Stop blood loss/prevent shock are the two you really need. (Start aid before EMS gets to you) Also, treating blood loss and shock are required to survive gunshot, car crashes, accidents etc...so you may help yourself or someone you know in ways nobody could ever guess. (Learn to use a pressure dressing and stiptic powder and keep it in your car/briefcase etc.) 15b. If you are serious about surviving an edged weapon attack...train to survive the initial assault (as worse case where you failed to detect attack). Protect your vitals and live long enough to fight(with hands, blade, gun...keys etc). Fight (train)without one extremity, on the ground, against the wall, on your back, under stress...and commit to muscle memory. __________________ Never say die! "A nation who forgets its defenders is soon forgotten itself." "A good shot must necessarily be a good man since the essence of good marksmanship is self-control and self-control is the essential quality of a good man." – Theodore Roosevelt

09-24-2006, 08:21 AM	#18
Crpdeth Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Location: Location Contributor Posts: 8,247	Re: Gun vs. Knife Very nice Delta I especially like #13 I guess this topic has been disected in the CCW community so many times that it's easy to grow bored with it, your post was a refreshing break from uneducated opinions, which is about all most of us have to go on.. Crpdeth __________________ Our greatest pretenses are built up not to hide the evil and the ugly in us, but our emptiness. The hardest thing to hide is something that is not there. ~Eric Hoffer Last edited by Crpdeth; 09-24-2006 at 08:24 AM..

09-24-2006, 04:13 PM	#19
Enzo_Guy V.I.P. Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Harwood, MD Posts: 160	Re: Gun vs. Knife I have more experience with knives than guns. I can say that knives are espcially more dangerous to police officers as a knife is capable of piercing kevlar easier than people might think. I've had a few occaisions where I've avoided a fight just by brandishing a knife, so in a state where CCW is restricted to law enforcement the knife is better than nothing.

09-24-2006, 10:05 PM	#20
southernshooter Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Deep South Mississippi Posts: 5,943	Re: Gun vs. Knife You can get in more trouble for waving a knive rather than a firearm. A knife is an extension of you body and you will stab someone before you shoot someone __________________ Only you can see this

09-29-2006, 05:04 PM	#21
Enzo_Guy V.I.P. Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Harwood, MD Posts: 160	Re: Gun vs. Knife Waving a knife is a couple years at most, pulling a gun in Maryland (and this is on top of the charges I get for not having a license to have thegun) is considered threatening with a deadly weapon. Police here tend to overlook knife charges, but being between the murder capitals of the USA handguns and driving laws are the two most enforced things.

09-30-2006, 02:14 PM	#22
Red Neck64 Former Guest Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: North N.Y.STATE Posts: 330	Re: Gun vs. Knife I have no N.Y.S. CCW but I do carry a Colt 38 Cobra.I have no intent on harming anyone,but if a criminal is intent on harming me or ones I love I will shoot.If I can walk away and disappear I will,if I am arrested so be it I'll have the opportunity to tell my story to a jury.Better then me being dead or worse yet seeing someone I love dead from the act of a SB.