Machine Pistols - The Firearms Forum

Ursus · 09-11-2006, 06:11 PM

I'm not sure if this belong here, but there it goes:
What do you think about Machine pistols? (Ingrams, HK VP 70 and their kin).
Do you think are they any good? Personally, my position on them is that they have an identity crisis, not filling any tacticall roll to complete satisfaction.
Your thoughts?

ironsight65 · 09-11-2006, 08:08 PM

Seems to me they do have a role, although it is somewhat
limited to close quarters combat or tactical entry teams.

southernshooter · 09-11-2006, 09:24 PM

Your talkin about Glock 18's Beretta 93R's stuff like that right
It would be close quarters it would be a semi effective way of engagin targets with machine guns in close quarters with out havin to have a rifle of you own

Ursus · 09-11-2006, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by southernshooter

Your talkin about Glock 18's Beretta 93R's stuff like that right

Right. What I don't see is what advantage the machine pistol has over the machine gun if you want full auto fire. Or what do they offer over the pistol if you don't want full auto.

southernshooter · 09-11-2006, 10:04 PM

Well what they have over rifle is compact easier to carry/conceal
Over regular pistol they are selct fire so you can shoot it like a plain pistol or select full auto and have alot more fire power

polishshooter · 09-11-2006, 10:30 PM

Ursus, I think I'm with you...ANY "Machine Pistol" is really an answer to a question that still hasn't been asked, SEEMS like a good idea, but no practicality, EXCEPT maybe if you consider the Czech Skorpion, or the Mac-10 or 11 as them instead of SMGs, THEY had a brief fling in specialized ops, but usually in LESSER (i.e., more CONTROLLABLE?) calibers like .32 or .380....BUT usually people who promote selective fire PISTOLS don't really understand PISTOLS...

It's tough enough to get hits with a pistol the way it's INTENDED to be used, fully auto would just make even more "fast misses" and wasted ammo, with empty weapons at worst (and more FREQUENT!)times...

NO "Automatic Pistol" can have a controllable rate of fire, just due to the closed breech AND low slide or bolt weight, SO any mag that is practical for a pistol (10-15 rds)would empty in about 1.5 seconds full auto, and you could simply not carry ENOUGH of them to keep it stoked...and with a 30 or 40 or 50 round mag, what ADVANTAGE does the "pistol" NOW have over a "real" SMG???

Better to PRACTICE to use a PISTOL as a PISTOL and if you NEED an SMG then by God get an SMG!!!! (In my not-so-humble, with ONLY IPSC pistol and NO intentional fully auto experience, opinion!

)

Ursus · 09-12-2006, 06:56 AM

Agree on that Polish. About the Macs and Skorpion, I tend to see them more like "mini smgs" rather than machine pistols. One of the more controllable mp I'd shoot, was an HK VP 70. But this is not a full auto, it's a burst fire (3 rounds per pull) gun. It has an 18 rounds mag. But while its true that you can have 3 hits at once, you can also have 3 misses at once. So you are right: Need a SMG? Get one. You can controll it better than the MP, and has more ammo. Need a pistol? Get one. You can controll it better than the MP and won't be ammo depleted as fast.

Pistolenschutze · 09-12-2006, 09:34 AM

I must concur with Polish and Bear on this one. The term "machine pistol" is essentially an oxymoron, assuming one is referring to true machine pistols and not submachine guns. They are too small and light to be even minimally controlable in any realistic combat situation. The soldier or policeman would be much better off with a weapon like the MP-5 if a full automatic weapon is called for in the situation.

LIKTOSHOOT · 09-12-2006, 10:11 PM

I disagree with all of you, every mission has a specifc use. Whether seen or unseen........or if it even matters.

Secret Service seemed to think so too.

LTS

polishshooter · 09-13-2006, 09:17 AM

LTS, do you EVER agree with ANYONE?

My point is simply that MOST people cannot control F/A fire from a REAL 6 to 9 lbs SMG or A/R, with a stock...

Why would you think that they would be able top control a 2 lb F/A PISTOL at a higher rate of fire?

Sorry, "Machine Pistols" are one of those "Sexy" ideas that are good only for "Armchair Commandos" and Hollywood...

A "Professional" that COULD handle it, PROBABLY has ALREADY mastered double taps and rapid trigger control with a CONVENTIONAL pistol, and is HITTING targets with 2 or more shots AT ABOUT THE SAME RATE OF FIRE as an SMG at handgun ranges ANYWAY, so the only person that COULD use it, DOESN"T NEED it....and I've seen MANY guys that can "machine gun" with a 1911, and keep it stoked as long as there are spare mags, hell in my day I could do it TOO, if you didn't know better you'd THINK they had "auto sears" from the sound and speed....NONE of them would have been BETTER off with one!

A guy running an assault course or "fun house" with a 1911, double tapping targets all the way through, ALREADY needs 7-10 spare mags! Give him full auto, and how many does he need NOW?

Yeah, you can always go to 9mm. 5.7mms or whatever, double stacks or whatever, BUT the answer will always be, even IF 9mm pistols (or SMALLER) rounds ever PROVE themselves to be dependable defensive CQB cartridges NOT fired from an SMG, that pistols are DEFENSIVE, Full Auto is OFFENSIVE, if you are going in on an ASSAULT, you BETTER have an SMG, a shotgun, OR a Carbine.....and the PISTOL in a holster!

Ursus · 09-13-2006, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LIKTOSHOOT

I disagree with all of you, every mission has a specifc use. Whether seen or unseen........or if it even matters.Secret Service seemed to think so too.LTS

The question is how to logistically fulfill the mission. MPs are more gimmick to me. As for the Secret Service....well they're secret so... how can we now how they're doing?

polishshooter · 09-13-2006, 09:48 PM

Oh Ursus, you have to learn that about the USA, "Secret" is only "Secret" until some Liberal Punk at the State Department decides it might "hurt Bush" so he or she leaks it to the New York Times and they print it on page one....

Pistolenschutze · 09-14-2006, 12:45 AM

Yeah, Polish, and then they get away with what is tantamount to treason by pleading "freedom of the press."

Ursus · 09-14-2006, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by polishshooter

Oh Ursus, you have to learn that about the USA, "Secret" is only "Secret" until some Liberal Punk at the State Department decides it might "hurt Bush" so he or she leaks it to the New York Times and they print it on page one....

Well, over here, and specially with our former military governments, a secret was a secret, and if you asked or talked too much...

southernshooter · 09-14-2006, 10:05 PM

To me freedom of press don't apply to ongoing military issuses that could compromise troops safety and ongoing missions but the press don't see it that way

polishshooter · 09-14-2006, 11:09 PM

Yeah, Ursus, and Southern, the USA USED to be able to "keep a secret," when MOST Americans generally had the good of the US at heart and were all generally patriotic and loyal citizens...

Now we have a lot of "traitors" among us, that put party or power in FRONT of "country...."

Back in World War II, we broke the German Enigma Code, and kept it "Ultra Top Secret" the whole war....(we were READING the German dispatches almost before THEY did....)and some of the later computer code breaking techniques we developed for the Germans and the Japs, we were STILL using after the war on the Russians, so as we "demobilized," all the men and women civilians were ASKED, (AND lightly threatened!) to keep it a secret AFTER they were released from National Service....

THEY ALL DID, there are MANY stories I've read of them only telling even their SPOUSES on their DEATHBEDS, if they told them at ALL, what they ACTUALLY did in the war!

IN the 1970s, scholars first started finding out about the "Ultra Secret," and it was destined to change the way EVERYBODY looked at World War II! BUT we were STILL using some of the techniques against the commies, so the US government released SOME information about WWII, and then released MISINFORMATION at the same time designed to throw off the Historians! With the fall of the Commies in 1989-90, more and more stuff is now declassified, and the TRUE story is now coming out, some of the books written in the 70s, including the first and best, "The ULTRA SECRET" are plumb WRONG.

But did we CARE??? NO, we ALL understood the threat, at least THEN.

Today, with our LIberals and traitors we have now in the opposition party, such a secret would be let loose in DAYS if not MINUTES to score ANY political points....and the USA be DAMMED...

Ursus · 09-15-2006, 07:41 AM

You`re saddly right on that Polish.

Pistolenschutze · 09-15-2006, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by polishshooter

Today, with our LIberals and traitors we have now in the opposition party, such a secret would be let loose in DAYS if not MINUTES to score ANY political points....and the USA be DAMMED...

Polish, this is one time I really, really wish I could disagree with you. Unfortunately, I can't. I think your signature motto says it all.

09-11-2006, 06:11 PM	#1
Ursus Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: El Salvador, Central America. Posts: 1,030	Machine Pistols I'm not sure if this belong here, but there it goes: What do you think about Machine pistols? (Ingrams, HK VP 70 and their kin). Do you think are they any good? Personally, my position on them is that they have an identity crisis, not filling any tacticall roll to complete satisfaction. Your thoughts? __________________ SI VIS PACEM, PARABELLUM. -->

09-11-2006, 08:08 PM	#2
ironsight65 V.I.P. Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 458	Re: Machine Pistols Seems to me they do have a role, although it is somewhat limited to close quarters combat or tactical entry teams.

09-11-2006, 09:24 PM	#3
southernshooter Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Deep South Mississippi Posts: 5,943	Re: Machine Pistols Your talkin about Glock 18's Beretta 93R's stuff like that right It would be close quarters it would be a semi effective way of engagin targets with machine guns in close quarters with out havin to have a rifle of you own __________________ Only you can see this

09-11-2006, 10:04 PM	#5
southernshooter Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Deep South Mississippi Posts: 5,943	Re: Machine Pistols Well what they have over rifle is compact easier to carry/conceal Over regular pistol they are selct fire so you can shoot it like a plain pistol or select full auto and have alot more fire power __________________ Only you can see this

09-11-2006, 10:30 PM	#6
polishshooter Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Indiana Contributor Posts: 7,879	Re: Machine Pistols Ursus, I think I'm with you...ANY "Machine Pistol" is really an answer to a question that still hasn't been asked, SEEMS like a good idea, but no practicality, EXCEPT maybe if you consider the Czech Skorpion, or the Mac-10 or 11 as them instead of SMGs, THEY had a brief fling in specialized ops, but usually in LESSER (i.e., more CONTROLLABLE?) calibers like .32 or .380....BUT usually people who promote selective fire PISTOLS don't really understand PISTOLS... It's tough enough to get hits with a pistol the way it's INTENDED to be used, fully auto would just make even more "fast misses" and wasted ammo, with empty weapons at worst (and more FREQUENT!)times... NO "Automatic Pistol" can have a controllable rate of fire, just due to the closed breech AND low slide or bolt weight, SO any mag that is practical for a pistol (10-15 rds)would empty in about 1.5 seconds full auto, and you could simply not carry ENOUGH of them to keep it stoked...and with a 30 or 40 or 50 round mag, what ADVANTAGE does the "pistol" NOW have over a "real" SMG??? Better to PRACTICE to use a PISTOL as a PISTOL and if you NEED an SMG then by God get an SMG!!!! (In my not-so-humble, with ONLY IPSC pistol and NO intentional fully auto experience, opinion! ) __________________ The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living.

09-12-2006, 06:56 AM	#7
Ursus Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: El Salvador, Central America. Posts: 1,030	Re: Machine Pistols Agree on that Polish. About the Macs and Skorpion, I tend to see them more like "mini smgs" rather than machine pistols. One of the more controllable mp I'd shoot, was an HK VP 70. But this is not a full auto, it's a burst fire (3 rounds per pull) gun. It has an 18 rounds mag. But while its true that you can have 3 hits at once, you can also have 3 misses at once. So you are right: Need a SMG? Get one. You can controll it better than the MP, and has more ammo. Need a pistol? Get one. You can controll it better than the MP and won't be ammo depleted as fast. __________________ SI VIS PACEM, PARABELLUM.

09-12-2006, 09:34 AM	#8
Pistolenschutze Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 13,094	Re: Machine Pistols I must concur with Polish and Bear on this one. The term "machine pistol" is essentially an oxymoron, assuming one is referring to true machine pistols and not submachine guns. They are too small and light to be even minimally controlable in any realistic combat situation. The soldier or policeman would be much better off with a weapon like the MP-5 if a full automatic weapon is called for in the situation. __________________ --Pistolenschutze (Pistol Shooter)

09-12-2006, 10:11 PM	#9
LIKTOSHOOT Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 9,367	Re: Machine Pistols I disagree with all of you, every mission has a specifc use. Whether seen or unseen........or if it even matters. Secret Service seemed to think so too. LTS

09-13-2006, 09:17 AM	#10
polishshooter Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Indiana Contributor Posts: 7,879	Re: Machine Pistols LTS, do you EVER agree with ANYONE? My point is simply that MOST people cannot control F/A fire from a REAL 6 to 9 lbs SMG or A/R, with a stock... Why would you think that they would be able top control a 2 lb F/A PISTOL at a higher rate of fire? Sorry, "Machine Pistols" are one of those "Sexy" ideas that are good only for "Armchair Commandos" and Hollywood... A "Professional" that COULD handle it, PROBABLY has ALREADY mastered double taps and rapid trigger control with a CONVENTIONAL pistol, and is HITTING targets with 2 or more shots AT ABOUT THE SAME RATE OF FIRE as an SMG at handgun ranges ANYWAY, so the only person that COULD use it, DOESN"T NEED it....and I've seen MANY guys that can "machine gun" with a 1911, and keep it stoked as long as there are spare mags, hell in my day I could do it TOO, if you didn't know better you'd THINK they had "auto sears" from the sound and speed....NONE of them would have been BETTER off with one! A guy running an assault course or "fun house" with a 1911, double tapping targets all the way through, ALREADY needs 7-10 spare mags! Give him full auto, and how many does he need NOW? Yeah, you can always go to 9mm. 5.7mms or whatever, double stacks or whatever, BUT the answer will always be, even IF 9mm pistols (or SMALLER) rounds ever PROVE themselves to be dependable defensive CQB cartridges NOT fired from an SMG, that pistols are DEFENSIVE, Full Auto is OFFENSIVE, if you are going in on an ASSAULT, you BETTER have an SMG, a shotgun, OR a Carbine.....and the PISTOL in a holster! __________________ The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living.

09-13-2006, 09:48 PM	#12
polishshooter Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Indiana Contributor Posts: 7,879	Re: Machine Pistols Oh Ursus, you have to learn that about the USA, "Secret" is only "Secret" until some Liberal Punk at the State Department decides it might "hurt Bush" so he or she leaks it to the New York Times and they print it on page one.... __________________ The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living.

09-14-2006, 12:45 AM	#13
Pistolenschutze Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 13,094	Re: Machine Pistols Yeah, Polish, and then they get away with what is tantamount to treason by pleading "freedom of the press." __________________ --Pistolenschutze (Pistol Shooter)

09-14-2006, 10:05 PM	#15
southernshooter Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Deep South Mississippi Posts: 5,943	Re: Machine Pistols To me freedom of press don't apply to ongoing military issuses that could compromise troops safety and ongoing missions but the press don't see it that way __________________ Only you can see this

09-14-2006, 11:09 PM	#16
polishshooter Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Indiana Contributor Posts: 7,879	Re: Machine Pistols Yeah, Ursus, and Southern, the USA USED to be able to "keep a secret," when MOST Americans generally had the good of the US at heart and were all generally patriotic and loyal citizens... Now we have a lot of "traitors" among us, that put party or power in FRONT of "country...." Back in World War II, we broke the German Enigma Code, and kept it "Ultra Top Secret" the whole war....(we were READING the German dispatches almost before THEY did....)and some of the later computer code breaking techniques we developed for the Germans and the Japs, we were STILL using after the war on the Russians, so as we "demobilized," all the men and women civilians were ASKED, (AND lightly threatened!) to keep it a secret AFTER they were released from National Service.... THEY ALL DID, there are MANY stories I've read of them only telling even their SPOUSES on their DEATHBEDS, if they told them at ALL, what they ACTUALLY did in the war! IN the 1970s, scholars first started finding out about the "Ultra Secret," and it was destined to change the way EVERYBODY looked at World War II! BUT we were STILL using some of the techniques against the commies, so the US government released SOME information about WWII, and then released MISINFORMATION at the same time designed to throw off the Historians! With the fall of the Commies in 1989-90, more and more stuff is now declassified, and the TRUE story is now coming out, some of the books written in the 70s, including the first and best, "The ULTRA SECRET" are plumb WRONG. But did we CARE??? NO, we ALL understood the threat, at least THEN. Today, with our LIberals and traitors we have now in the opposition party, such a secret would be let loose in DAYS if not MINUTES to score ANY political points....and the USA be DAMMED... __________________ The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living. Last edited by polishshooter; 09-14-2006 at 11:12 PM..

09-15-2006, 07:41 AM	#17
Ursus Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: El Salvador, Central America. Posts: 1,030	Re: Machine Pistols You`re saddly right on that Polish. __________________ SI VIS PACEM, PARABELLUM.