Glock's blow

[billt]

Originally Posted by LIKTOSHOOT

Law enforcement in the whole picture is the most under qualified handgun user the USA firing an extremely low qualifing amount per year---followed by brave tails of unleashing 19-36 rounds at one suspect and sometimes actually getting a grazing hit.

And this is the guns fault how???? Bill T.

[billt]

Glocks are chosen by police and law enforcement for the same reason they are chosen by citizenery in record numbers. They are a reliable, cost effective self defense platform. Is a Glock totally fault free? There is not, and never will be, a firearm of any kind that can claim that distinction. Do Glocks perform better than most, yes. Are they less costly than most, yes. Are they easier to operate than most, yes. Do they last longer than most with a minimum of care, yes. Do they offer an effective amount of firepower for their size and weight, yes. And the list could go on and on, but I don't need a gallon of paint to replicate a convincing picture. No gun will make up for an inept user, not even a Glock. As far as it's "record" against the 1911 let's not lose sight of the fact the 1911 has had a 73 year head start. There hasen't been a firearm of any kind that has built such a positive following and reputation in the last 22 years as Glock has. Not even close. I own both a 1911 and a Glock as well, and both have their merits. That said if things went real wrong, real fast, Glock is what I would reach for. Bill T.

[Crpdeth]

Gosh dang it Bill...If you dont stop making so much freaking sense I'm gonna have to join the dark side!

Only one problem...I handload and target practice, I dont want to be limited to buying only jacketed bullets, I mean I might want jacketed, might not...I like my options open.

So can you tell me about these barrels on the market that take care of that problem? I mean I know NOTHING about the problem, only that it exists and now recently I hear of this new barrel that is supposed to correct it.

Crpdeth

[LIKTOSHOOT]

Glock was never chosen for anything or service here, they`re start was to "give away" arms to law enforcement and the like. They still follow this pratice with deep-deep discounts to law enforcement, so it is not the chosen best. Much like the military.........the cheapeast contractor and that is the "ONLY" reason. Other will claim otherwise, but that is not the fact or case. And while many seem to think there is a glock in every house, that too is far from true, glock and there ilk hang together like any other group-that does not make them prolific, they are so because of discounted law enforcement only. That is the only reason they`re numbers are high in sales---"THE ONLY REASON".

How police shoot has very much to do with glocks, because they fire less than the standard casual weekend shooter, so there again they have no real firing time and don`t get this wrong; that goes for any law enfocement duty weapon. Pretty simple to evaluate law enforcements weapons training, simply look for the dust bunnies in the hole of the glock, which is now covered by the "glock plug" aftermarket of course. That shows a worn gun, not a used gun.

LTS

[Crpdeth]

Originally Posted by LIKTOSHOOT

They still follow this pratice with deep-deep discounts to law enforcement.........the cheapeast contractor and that is the "ONLY" reason. Other will claim otherwise, *snip*

LTS

I'm not going to "claim otherwise" (just yet), but I would like to know where you acquire your information...

Crpdeth

[Pat Hurley]

Originally Posted by Crpdeth

I'm not going to "claim otherwise" (just yet), but I would like to know where you acquire your information...

LTS is exactly right. I don't know where he gets his information, but I know where I get mine... from the Sherriffs, Chief Deputy's, and armorers of many Florida Sherriff's Departments that we serve along side of (I'm President of a large regional Security Officer provider).

Let's take a Sherriff's Department in Florida (in my service area) as a prime example. Until about five years ago, all their boys were carrying wheel guns (Smith's as I recall). They set out to re-arm their Deputy's with higher powered, more modern, semi-automatics. They had some big name guns tested at their range, and ultimately they judged the Walther P99, H&K USP, and Glock (I don't remember the model) to be their top three. They actually preferred the H&K, but Glock put forward an offer they couldn't refuse... free leather for every Deputy, very generous trade in on their ancient Smith's, and new Glock's at cost. In short, economically, they couldn't say no.

So, LTS is very correct. Police and Deputy's are carrying Glock's in large numbers because of a business strategy (cash strapped agencies can hardly afford to say no when large dollar items are given to them), not necessarily because they're the finest weapon to be found. Glock chooses to flood the law enforcement market with their weapons at a purposeful loss, so folks like Bill and others can go on websites like this one and trumpet how many cops carry Glock's. It's a smart strategy for Glock, but in reality it's not something to judge their true quality and worth on. Cops drive a lots of Crown Victoria's... you willing to judge them the best cars on the road too?

Vive La H&K!!

[Crpdeth]

Originally Posted by Pat Hurley

LTS is exactly right. I don't know where he gets his information, but I know where I get mine... from the Sherriffs, Chief Deputy's, and armorers of many Florida Sherriff's Departments that we serve along side of (I'm President of a large regional Security Officer provider).

Let's take a Sherriff's Department in Florida (in my service area) as a prime example. Until about five years ago, all their boys were carrying wheel guns (Smith's as I recall). They set out to re-arm their Deputy's with higher powered, more modern, semi-automatics. They had some big name guns tested at their range, and ultimately they judged the Walther P99, H&K USP, and Glock (I don't remember the model) to be their top three. They actually preferred the H&K, but Glock put forward an offer they couldn't refuse... free leather for every Deputy, very generous trade in on their ancient Smith's, and new Glock's at cost. In short, economically, they couldn't say no.

So, LTS is very correct. Police and Deputy's are carrying Glock's in large numbers because of a business strategy (cash strapped agencies can hardly afford to say no when large dollar items are given to them), not necessarily because they're the finest weapon to be found. Glock chooses to flood the law enforcement market with their weapons at a purposeful loss, so folks like Bill and others can go on websites like this one and trumpet how many cops carry Glock's. It's a smart strategy for Glock, but in reality it's not something to judge their true quality and worth on. Cops drive a lots of Crown Victoria's... you willing to judge them the best cars on the road too?

Vive La H&K!!

So you place rent a cops...cool

Like I said, I'm not "claiming otherwise" (just yet) Just like to know where he gets his info...

If these agencies are so "cash strapped" why dont they simply require their officers to buy their own weapon...Some do...Why not the "Cash Strapped" ones? I'm asking you because you seem to be in the know and I'm truely curious...Wouldn't this allow the officer to use a firearm that he is comfortable with instead of something the agency tossed at him?

So, this "Prime example of a Sherriffs Dept" out in Florida judged Glock right up there with Walther P99 and H&K USP after testing some "big name guns" huh...Thats pretty cool too. I mean ya have to admit... If the sucker made it to the top three...

Crpdeth

[LIKTOSHOOT]

Do not for a moment think that glocks make the top three cut every where, that also is not the case. It is nothing more than what that peticular department choses to allow or test to allow. Yes law enforcement is straped for cash, why do you think they go wild when someone delivers a crate of AR15`s at a discounted rate OR FREE!! 870 Shotguns?????

Try to buy a Crown Victoria for law enforcement cost, good grief are we all that removed from reALity????


LTS

[Pat Hurley]

Originally Posted by Crpdeth

If these agencies are so "cash strapped" why dont they simply require their officers to buy their own weapon...Some do...Why not the "Cash Strapped" ones? I'm asking you because you seem to be in the know and I'm truely curious...Wouldn't this allow the officer to use a firearm that he is comfortable with instead of something the agency tossed at him?

Crpdeth

Some agencies are very sensitive to liability (lawsuits) and others, not so much. Most agencies like the continuity of one weapon and the abililty to regulate the weight of the trigger pull. Since most agencies provide training ammo and in-service ammo, there's continuity issues there as well. The agencies who do not dictate a certain weapon, in a certain caliber are in the minority these days. But those who do permit such freedom of choice among their uniformed staff have made a conscious decision that the lawsuits and liability arising from this policy does not outweigh the positives (free guns and leather!) of allowing each team member to shoot what they feel most comfortable with. Again, this is a minority position.

I have a weapons policy for my armed officers that is not open to interpretation, for liability and continuity reasons. I buy all the guns and leather.

My armed guys train and recertify at a Sherriff's gun range under the watchful eye of the Chief Deputy, who also happens to double as their Range Master. This guy can shoot. He and I have had many conversations about the proficiency of his Deputy's on the range. You'd be as surprised as I was to hear that there are a LOT of certified LEO's who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn at 10 yards. So, he has to spend a bunch of time refining their skills and forcing them to run box after box after box of ammo to just get them proficient - not sharpshooters. I can only imagine how crazy his job would be - and how less efficient he would be as a weapons trainer and Range Master - if every Deputy brought a potpourri of brands, styles, and calibers to the range.

These are complex issues that each agency judges for themselves. Most prefer to regulate and incur the costs of guns and leather, versus having increased liability and a mish mash of in-service firearms.

Hope that helps.

[billt]

Originally Posted by Crpdeth

Gosh dang it Bill...If you dont stop making so much freaking sense I'm gonna have to join the dark side!

Only one problem...I handload and target practice, I dont want to be limited to buying only jacketed bullets, I mean I might want jacketed, might not...I like my options open.

So can you tell me about these barrels on the market that take care of that problem? I mean I know NOTHING about the problem, only that it exists and now recently I hear of this new barrel that is supposed to correct it.

Crpdeth

Crpdeth,

I'll take a pass on joining the argument that our nations law enforcement are nothing more than a bunch of Wal-Mart shoppers when it comes to their weaponry. Getting back to your question, the reason Glock advises against the use of lead bullets is because of the type of polygonal rifling they employ in their barrels. It doesn't lend itself well to lead bullets. A bit like Marlins "Micro Groove" system which they have more or less gotten away from because of the immense popularity of their guns to Cowboy Action Shooters. They have now gone to a deeper cut Ballard system of rifling. The other issue of "not shooting reloads in a Glock" got started because of Glocks "unsupported chamber" design. Glocks are rated for any and all high performance ammunition, standard, +P, as well as +P+. Glocks will digest them all without a problem, as they are designed to. Glock puts a generous throat, (unsupported chamber), on their barrels to increase feeding reliability. When shooting +P+ high performance ammunition the cases can, and in fact do, bulge at the rear. This causes above average working of the brass when such cases are pushed thru a sizing die for reloading. This, in some cases with some harder brass, can weaken it sufficiently to produce a blown case. As far as getting around these 2 issues, I've shot plated bullets from places like Berry's Manufacturing in my Glock 21 .45 ACP without issues as long as you don't run them into the red line. I have also reloaded, without issue, these same cases. There are aftermarket barrels that will give you standard rifleing along with more chamber support if you so desire. Glocks sacrifice some things to assure reliablity much more so that guilt edged accuracy. They were never designed to be match grade weapons. It's basicly the same principal Kalishnikov employed in the AK-47. Massive reliability with some sacrifice to accuracy, as opposed to the M-16 / AR-15 platform which use much tighter tolerances for tremendous accuracy, but with the sacrifice of reliability when dirty. I shoot my Glock "as is" with zero modifications. A lot of guys replace things like the plastic guide rods with steel and such. I haven't because I have never felt the need to do so. I will admit that I have been leaning more to jacketed bullets because I hate all the dirt from shooting cast slugs, and because if you keep your eye open places like Midway will sometimes have sales on bulk jacket bullets along with free shipping so the cost isn't that great overall. Hope this helps. Bill T.

[billt]

Originally Posted by Pat Hurley

Cops drive a lots of Crown Victoria's... you willing to judge them the best cars on the road too?

Going on 16 years old and still going strong. Fords and Glocks, both rugged and reliable! Yeah, I know, you can't buy either one at Wal-Mart. Bill T.

[Pat Hurley]

Originally Posted by billt

Crpdeth,

I'll take a pass on joining the argument that our nations law enforcement are nothing more than a bunch of Wal-Mart shoppers when it comes to their weaponry. Bill T.

Now Bill, you're being petulent again. Nobody said anything about LEO's being Wal-Mart shoppers (however, since they're largely a very smart bunch of people, they'd be real wise to shop there).

What you don't appreciate is that all LEO agencies have to answer to city managers, mayors, town councils, politicians, and ultimately the taxpayers when it comes to expenditures. Each department has procurement specialists who typically follow established governmental protocols for their area in buying new equipment. If an agency was to take a pass on the kind of offers that Glock typically puts forth, you'd have a lot of answering to do if you did take a pass and bought a flock of H&K's + leather. That's political hot water that many Chief's and Sherriff's don't want to swim in. So, even when a Glock is judged second or third on the preferred firearm list - it rockets to number one frequently because of the insanely sweet deals offered by Glock and the tight budgets most agencies are working under. Period. I wish it were more complicated.

Does that make them Wal-Mart shoppers (that's a compliment by the way)? No, it's simply economics and politics 101. That doesn't make it good or bad, it just is what it is.

So Bill, your Glock's, while a solid, good weapon, and widely used in the law enforcement agencies worldwide, are not so pervasive because of their charming personalities and rugged good looks. Nope, Glock has flooded the LEO market with "at" or "below cost" weapons and freebies galore so that folks like you would be enamored with the fact that so many cops carry them, and just have to have one for themselves. I admit that it's a winning marketing strategy and it's worked wonders for their market penetration. But - contrary to prevailing wisdom - just because lots of cops carry them doesn't make a Glock the weapon upon whose name being spoken, all knees should bend. It makes the Glock folks marketing geniouses and nothing more.

Now, quit being grumpy. Just because I am not a Glock jihadist doesn't make me a bad guy.

Pat Hurley

[flopshot]

i've owned colt's, s&w's. taurus. couldn't hit **** with any of them.
glock 17's? like it was grafted to my wrist by the borg.
so now in own two. i could care less about image or cost, the glock works for me and as far as i'm concerned that's all that counts.

[Pat Hurley]

Originally Posted by flopshot

i've owned colt's, s&w's. taurus. couldn't hit **** with any of them.
glock 17's? like it was grafted to my wrist by the borg.
so now in own two. i could care less about image or cost, the glock works for me and as far as i'm concerned that's all that counts.

At least you're not one of those Glock kool-aid swallowers. Enjoy your weapon.

[flopshot]

Originally Posted by Pat Hurley

At least you're not one of those Glock kool-aid swallowers. Enjoy your weapon.

no kool aid. just results. i would like a little more power than the nine, but i figure one or two accurate hits with a 9mm are worth more than five or six that i can't place well. i have been thinking about another Glock in .357 Sig
but to me it's all about feel and the 17 is a natural for me.

[Pat Hurley]

Originally Posted by billt

Going on 16 years old and still going strong. Fords and Glocks, both rugged and reliable! Yeah, I know, you can't buy either one at Wal-Mart. Bill T.

Where's your Crown Vic? It's the best car ever, you know!

[LIKTOSHOOT]

Oh please, you won`t get drawn it to this argument. Thats all you`ve done is argue glocks glory and it rings so hollow everyone can here it. Come on dispute all my wild made up tails of glocks..........so far you have simply avoided everything and not done a very good job of it either. And tell me this, do you have anything that is from the year 2000 or above, cars/targets/pictures/maybe a new, newer glock???? Beer don`t count!


LTS

[billt]

Originally Posted by LIKTOSHOOT

Oh please, you won`t get drawn it to this argument. Thats all you`ve done is argue glocks glory and it rings so hollow everyone can here it. Come on dispute all my wild made up tails of glocks.

Glory??? A Glock is a well made, well designed, cost effective, popular, self defense handgun, period. But according to you they are a death trap which are only used by law enforcement because of Glocks ability to "give them away", to men who don't know how to shoot. Gaston Glock has become one of the wealthiest men in the firearms business because he sells tons of guns to guys who are "cult like" and don't know a damn thing about what they are buying, and give them away to cops who don't know any better and can't hit the broadside of a barn. Listen to yourself. I could give a rats ass who owns, or doesn't own a Glock. Don't berate them because you don't like them. Take one apart and lay it on a kitchen table. Do the same with a H&K $2,300.00 "Mark 23 SOCOM". Show me $1,800.00+ dollars worth of difference. Trust me, you don't have to be a crack shot, a firearms genius, or a cult member for that matter, to see there isn't. Put them back together and shoot them to destruction. Which will last longer? Remember $1,800.00 seperate the two. If Glock offers their product to law enforcement at reduced rates, (and I'm not saying they don't), it's good business sense. Police departments are concerned about costs. So is virtually everyone else. Glock addresses this. They produce a superior product at a fair price, and in the process have a lot of satisfied customers. Whats so damn terrible about that? Perhaps if holier than thou H&K would get off their dead ass and do the same, they would, or at least could, enjoy the same profitability, and popularity for that matter, that Glock does. Then you wouldn't be crying in your beer so much, and they wouldn't have to charge over triple what their guns are worth. Bill T.

[billt]

Originally Posted by LIKTOSHOOT

And tell me this, do you have anything that is from the year 2000 or above, cars/targets/pictures/maybe a new, newer glock?

Since you asked, here ya' go. By the way we're all still waiting patiently for the picture of the "one hole group" that "used to be there before I was", over on the rimfire forum???? More of the same lame hot air. You need to open a window before you pass out from your own bull$h!t. Bill T.

[billt]

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976583929.htm

You and Hurley can fight over it. Better hurry, they'll be all over this one like stink on dog crap! Bill T.

[billt]

Originally Posted by Pat Hurley

Glock chooses to flood the law enforcement market with their weapons at a purposeful loss.

Show anyone on this board one single piece of evidence that Glock is taking "purposeful losses" on firearms to law enforcement. A discount on bulk purchases perhaps, losses doubtful. You 2 need to stop feeding off each others bull$h!t. Bill T.

[shooter]

in all fairness...i shot a glock 23 .40sw. the overall feel was like butter, it felt like they used my hand to mold the frame..but i didnt like the muzzle flip..i ended up buying a springfield xd40 over it, it has a little less flip since the slide is heavier

i shot the full sized GAP..beat my knuckle to death on my middle finger..the only gun that has ever done that...i shot the compact 9mm..not bad but it was a range gun and small metal piece that looked like a shim or something fell off the back of the slide..no prbs with it shooting but still...i tried another one not sure the model..could have been the same gun just a different day..well the spring was so warped from people loading it to capacity (range gun) that it wouldnt feed the rounds into the chamger..thats why no matter what gun i use (semi auto that is) i always leave one round out so it doesnt screw the spring up...

all in all i respect the glock since the mid size or compact ones that is fit my hand perfectly. but as far as the style/type i like the springfield XD's..the 1911 style grip safety to me is a major plus with the safety factor but even on the xd i really dont care for the glock style trigger..with the grip safety id like to see one with a regular style trigger

i respect them ..but im not rushing out to get one as long as the XD's are around..are the XDs my fav gun..no prb not..but i choose it over the glock none the less and thats my $.02

[inplanotx]

Originally Posted by billt

Since you asked, here ya' go. By the way we're all still waiting patiently for the picture of the "one hole group" that "used to be there before I was", over on the rimfire forum???? More of the same lame hot air. You need to open a window before you pass out from your own bull$h!t. Bill T.

Hey Mr. T, the picture is over there in case you want to see it. Also, LTS has probably forgotten more about guns than you now know. You are ratcheting up your language and I think you need to calm down. Use the search feature on this forum and find the target. Lose the language.

Don't berate them because you don't like them. Take one apart and lay it on a kitchen table. Do the same with a H&K $2,300.00 "Mark 23 SOCOM". Show me $1,800.00+ dollars worth of difference. Trust me, you don't have to be a crack shot, a firearms genius, or a cult member for that matter, to see there isn't. Put them back together and shoot them to destruction. Which will last longer? Remember $1,800.00 seperate the two.

Thanks for the info, I was running out of names for the plastic crap. You have now added another piece of wit to my repetoire.

Gulosh.....The Poor Mans Plastic Pistol!!!!!

[billt]

Is that "language" OK with you? Bill T.

[inplanotx]

Personal attacks at not allowed at TFF.